[Faran Brigo]

DMP_Jay, on 28 December 2011 - 10:03 AM, said:

...if it could heal, it would not be dead. only living organisms can heal...

As much as I want to agree, only living organisms can move and feed too.

[DMP_Jay]

i guess it depends on what kind of zombie we are talking about.

standard dead things, no healing. but if you talk about a revenant which is more of an entity (that some feel zombies were based upon) and kind of dead, i could see that type healing since it is more of "demon".

true, dead things don't move...but i thought we were talking about basic rules of traditional zombies?

[Faran Brigo]

Well there's really three rulesets for zombies. Classic voodoo zombies which are supernatural and mostly alive (as depicted in old movies and books), Romero zombies which are mostly dead, and Zombie-like "infectees" as seen on 28 days later and Left4dead which are kind of in-between.

[DMP_Jay]

Faran Brigo, on 29 December 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:

Well there's really three rulesets for zombies. Classic voodoo zombies which are supernatural and mostly alive (as depicted in old movies and books), Romero zombies which are mostly dead, and Zombie-like "infectees" as seen on 28 days later and Left4dead which are kind of in-between.

yes, i tend to shy away from the vodoo ones, just no interest. to me the best types are the romero/neo romero dead. 28 days are infected which i am glad that the majority on here agree are not zoms, because they aren't. since they are not dead, still alive but lost all sense of morality and control of themselves, they are what i consider to bethe closest to what real zoms could be. In l4d, the regular ones are true zoms, it is the special infected that are not zoms since they are still alive...especially the hunter...that damned hunter...

[Vorpal]

Faran Brigo, on 29 December 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:

Well there's really three rulesets for zombies. Classic voodoo zombies which are supernatural and mostly alive (as depicted in old movies and books), Romero zombies which are mostly dead, and Zombie-like "infectees" as seen on 28 days later and Left4dead which are kind of in-between.

I think you made a slight mistake. Voodoo zombies are the "regular" zombies. It was described as a drug/poison induced state. Romero had the supernatural zombies. There are other zombies, such as the ones from REC that fall into this category too.


The voodoo zombies aren't much to talk about because their threat level is fairly low.

[DMP_Jay]

Vorpal, on 29 December 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:

Faran Brigo, on 29 December 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:

Well there's really three rulesets for zombies. Classic voodoo zombies which are supernatural and mostly alive (as depicted in old movies and books), Romero zombies which are mostly dead, and Zombie-like "infectees" as seen on 28 days later and Left4dead which are kind of in-between.

I think you made a slight mistake. Voodoo zombies are the "regular" zombies. It was described as a drug/poison induced state. Romero had the supernatural zombies. There are other zombies, such as the ones from REC that fall into this category too.


The voodoo zombies aren't much to talk about because their threat level is fairly low.

romero's zombies were an effect of a toxin or radiation, not supernatural but man made.

vodoo zoms have been created with a witch doctor's potion (technically a toxin) and with chanting (ie: supernatural means). i never heard of anyone describing romer's dead as being supernatural. how can romero's dead be considered supernatural? i'm just not sure how those go together?

now keene's zoms from the rising and city of the dead ARE supernatural zoms.

(and i have to admit it is nice being able to have debates about this subject, since most people i know could care less).

j

[Vorpal]

DMP_Jay, on 29 December 2011 - 02:00 PM, said:

romero's zombies were an effect of a toxin or radiation, not supernatural but man made.

vodoo zoms have been created with a witch doctor's potion (technically a toxin) and with chanting (ie: supernatural means). i never heard of anyone describing romer's dead as being supernatural. how can romero's dead be considered supernatural? i'm just not sure how those go together?

now keene's zoms from the rising and city of the dead ARE supernatural zoms.

(and i have to admit it is nice being able to have debates about this subject, since most people i know could care less).

j

There was no definite reason for the creation of Romero's zombies. So though it could be classified as either, i prefer to put it under supernatural. It's a pandemic with no concrete, natural evidence. Voodoo zombies, as explained in The Serpent and the Rainbow, were created using blowfish poison. That has a natural reasoning to it.

[DMP_Jay]

werenn't legosi's dead in white zombie the dead brought back to life with some kind of spell? it has been so long since i've seen it i can't remember for sure....

[Vorpal]

DMP_Jay, on 29 December 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

werenn't legosi's dead in white zombie the dead brought back to life with some kind of spell? it has been so long since i've seen it i can't remember for sure....

No idea since i haven't seen the movie. Though voodoo witchdoctors would have you believe they were casting spells and using black magic, rather than using a natural substance.

[DMP_Jay]

i was with you until that last post....

considering that we are talking about fictional beings and now saying that those fictional beings that control these other fictional beings are modern day magicians is taking the fun out of the dialog...

and yes i purposely typed out that paragraph to include the vagueness of it all

[Faran Brigo]

Hold your horses. If it has to be undead to be a zombie, ALL zombies are supernatural since there's no naturalist explanation as to how a corpse can rise again and feed on the living.

In fiction, voodoo zombies are strictly supernatural in that they were "brought back by spell". What we actually know about real life voodoo rituals and their scientific explanations is a whole different story.

[DMP_Jay]

Faran Brigo, on 29 December 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:

Hold your horses. If it has to be undead to be a zombie, ALL zombies are supernatural since there's no naturalist explanation as to how a corpse can rise again and feed on the living.

In fiction, voodoo zombies are strictly supernatural in that they were "brought back by spell". What we actually know about real life voodoo rituals and their scientific explanations is a whole different story.

you put it better than i did.

[Vorpal]

DMP_Jay, on 29 December 2011 - 04:22 PM, said:

i was with you until that last post....

considering that we are talking about fictional beings and now saying that those fictional beings that control these other fictional beings are modern day magicians is taking the fun out of the dialog...

and yes i purposely typed out that paragraph to include the vagueness of it all

Modern day magicians as in illusionists? Well, voodoo is a real religion that movies were based on it.

Faran Brigo, on 29 December 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:

Hold your horses. If it has to be undead to be a zombie, ALL zombies are supernatural since there's no naturalist explanation as to how a corpse can rise again and feed on the living.

In fiction, voodoo zombies are strictly supernatural in that they were "brought back by spell". What we actually know about real life voodoo rituals and their scientific explanations is a whole different story.

So you'd rather stick to the myth of voodoo instead of the real thing? Voodoo zombies already prove it doesn't have to be undead to be CONSIDERED a zombie. I say "considered" because voodoo zombies were perceived as dead and risen, when in actuality they were not.

I see where you're coming from now though. The movies following the myth of voodoo zombies would make them supernatural. I tend to follow the science behind it, which was where i disagreed. So we have movie voodoo zombies which are supernatural, and real voodoo zombies which aren't. Pick your poison. ;)

[DMP_Jay]

to put it as basic as possible....

how would a virus, a natural occuring virus such as ebola, if it would mutate and cause the living to come back to life, how could that be classified as a supernatural occurance?

i mean think about it, traditionally, supernatural is something that trancends nature, it is not natural.

so how is being infected with a natural substance supernatural?

su·per·nat·u·ral   /ˌsupərˈnætʃərəl, -ˈnætʃrəl/ Show Spelled[soo-per-nach-er-uhl, -nach-ruhl] Show IPA
adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
2. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.
3. of a superlative degree; preternatural: a missile of supernatural speed.
4. of, pertaining to, or attributed to ghosts, goblins, or other unearthly beings; eerie; occult.


where as to me, from the def above...common zombies are NOT supernatural except that they are not to exist.

but then we are also discussing a fictional account of something that has not or has a very slight chance of actually happening.

[Faran Brigo]

DMP_Jay, on 30 December 2011 - 01:37 PM, said:

how would a virus, a natural occuring virus such as ebola, if it would mutate and cause the living to come back to life, how could that be classified as a supernatural occurance?
...so how is being infected with a natural substance supernatural?

Uh, because nothing can cause the dead to come back to life?

The whole "Virus/bacteria/radiation" shtick is what is known in tvtropes.com as a "Handwave". If you start questioning the biology behind it, it makes no sense and the OP's assumptions are correct. Even if it were at all possible, undead zombies that are completely autonomous (No food, no water) would break the laws of thermodynamics for one. A... "Realistic" zombie would still need a working heart, lungs and other organs, so basically it'd be pretty much like a normal person and say, a blast of buckshot on the gut would put it down just as well as living people.

"Infected" like the 28-days later type are the only types that are somewhat plausible without a supernatural explanation, and even then...

[DMP_Jay]

i was reading the whole discussion incorrectly.

yes, dead things cannot move as it requires a heart to pump blood to the organs needed to move.

i was looking at it from the perpective of the already "established" rules within movies, novels, comics etc....

my mistake.

continue!

[razorreilly]

DMP_Jay, on 29 December 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

werenn't legosi's dead in white zombie the dead brought back to life with some kind of spell? it has been so long since i've seen it i can't remember for sure....

Jesus raised a dead man back to life, but he wasnt a zombie

[Faran Brigo]

razorreilly, on 30 December 2011 - 08:18 PM, said:

Jesus raised a dead man back to life, but he wasnt a zombie

Your argument is invalid :P

[Icarus]

Faran Brigo, on 29 December 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:

Hold your horses. If it has to be undead to be a zombie, ALL zombies are supernatural since there's no naturalist explanation as to how a corpse can rise again and feed on the living.

In fiction, voodoo zombies are strictly supernatural in that they were "brought back by spell". What we actually know about real life voodoo rituals and their scientific explanations is a whole different story.

Actually voodoo zombies are the only ones that actually exist out of the ones described here.

There is a toxin known as tetrodotoxin which given in correct amounts can make a person appear dead, no detectable heart beat, no detectable blood flow, body temperature drops. Person would in most cases be considered clinically dead. Witch doctors would give this "zombie powder" to someone, and they would appear dead and be buried, after a day or two, the witch doctor digs up said victim and revives them, this person is now a zombie slave, and the witch doctor is his master, or atleast thats what the parties involved seem to think. Weather prolonged state of near non existent vitals causes some sort of psychological or brain trauma which makes the victim more likely to go along with the charade or if the belief in voodoo is so engrained in them that they truly believe they were dead and are now a zombie slave I don't know. All i know is that it happens, and they are known as zombies.

The practice comes from Haiti I believe.

Interesting trivia, tetrototoxin is the poison in puffer fish or "fugu" sushi which makes it especially dangerous to eat if not prepared correctly.

There are some fairly well documented cases of zombies apparently coming back from the dead through voodoo. Makes for interesting reading.

[CT Survivalist]

I agree with what a few people have mentioned here as far as running low on supplies, food etc... as that is bound to happen with no more production going on. But the problem is really going to be people's will to life, raiders, psychological breakdowns and many more. Unless people have a group of let's say 100 people in a somewhat isolated and secure area, such as a ski resort in Vermont, with doctors, laborers, cooks, military, teachers etc...then society has little chance of surviving for the years to come, yet alone taking controll and rebuilding. Like you said even if the smart ones are left that's a lot more zombies for every dumb or person lacking knowledge that the survivors are going to have to fight off. As much as this is messed up, you can't really accept anyone you come across, you have to run in a group of no more then 10-15, hold up a nice fortress and run missions on a daily/weekly basis to maintain living and gather food, water etc. People worry about helping others so much and trying to reach loved ones that they drop their defenses or do hastly actions which ends up getting them killed. But I'd say after a full-blown outbreak occurs, society as we know it will never be the same. There will always be at least one zombie left too, nearly impossible to kill off everyone due to the population.