[kiltedninja]

So, something got my mind ticking. A lot of people don't seem to have professional training in weapons, but also seem to be proficient in their skills. So what I'm wondering is this: What is more valuable practice with your skills, or training. Now let me clarify the differences for those of you who may not be sure of what I'm saying; Practice is using your skills in a real or realistic environment(live fire practice, actual fights, or fighting with practice weapons) and Training is where you're learning skills in a class environment(kata, gym training, shooting ranges etc...) So which do you believe to be more valuable then?

Personally, I think that a combination of both is good, like I have my Iaido, Kali, Karate, Jujitsu and boxing training, but I've never used Iaido in a real fight, and Kali has been used rarely. Karate, Jujitsu and boxing have seen the most use, and I've modified the skills the schools have taught me to use them effectively in street fights. Very rarely have I used the Kali because it's a mostly weapons based style, and I don't often use weapons.

But in ZPAW, what do you believe will be the most useful?

[bandits1]

If you want to do things the right way with proper technique, which would make for the most efficient and powerful stokes/slashes/punches/kicks/throws/whatever, you absolutely need formal training. You can't learn proper technique by watching a video or reading a book or practicing in your backyard with your best friend who's only been taking karate for a year at a McDojo and isn't much better than you are. Get your ass to a respectable dojo and put in a decade or two of sweat before you say you're "trained".

However, in the context of a ZPAW environment, lots of informal practice may get you by. Like I mentioned in the other thead, unless the zombies in your area are sporting katana and nunchuks and throwing stars, you're basically fighting untrained and unarmed opponents. Problem is there might be 2084083340 of them, so you want to have lots of practice time put in swinging around whatever melee weapon you choose to brandish. You're going to have to be efficient in your killing since you're likely to be outnumbered. It doesn't have to look pretty and you don't need to know how to defend, but you at least better be fast in smashing brains.

[kiltedninja]

Shooting is another area of practice v. training. Combat shooting is a little different than target shooting unless you're a sniper, or are shooting from a static position.

[hotlead]

IMO, you need to do both, you need to "practice your training".

What I mean is, that if you've been trained to shoot a rifle at silhouettes from the four basic positions, then you need to practice from those positions. If you shoot from the bench and make little groups in round black circles all the time, then that's what you are practicing to do, not what you were trained to do.

If you were trained and are geared to perform mag changes with your left hand, but always do it with your right since you've been spending too much time at the bench, you'll fumble around when time counts.

If you've never been trained to do anything, and are shooting little groups in black circles from the bench every time you go out, and the time comes that you need to defend yourself or someone else with your rifle, you'll find yourself unconfident in your abilities and likely will hesitate.

We need to keep in mind that training is perishable, during practice we should challenge our retention and ability to perform as we were trained as often as possible, and go back for refreshers.

[CAVU45]

Basically, practice is to keep sharp and retain the training you've had. Practice is an individual endeavor, training is joint.

[mattifikation]

My Tae Kwon Do instructor had a saying.

"Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect."

You can "practice" putting 1,000 rounds through your favorite gun, but if nobody ever shows you the right way to do it, then all you've done is made the wrong way to do it a reflexive action.

[Dave Of The Dead]

I'd say that you could do fairly well if you were trained the basics and then practiced the rest, modifying what you were taught to fit the situation and your capabilities. I do agree that you can't learn fighting or shooting skills from a book or video, believe me, I've tried. This doesn't pertain, however, to many other survival skills.

[Noc]

I have no knowledge of firearms or melee weapons, but I have experience with 'unarmed combat' so i'll base my opinion on that.


Like a few of you have said, equal measures would be ideal, but what I have noticed, "in martial arts" is a person can have trained for 3-4 years, and be beaten by someone who has no FORMAL training, but has had experience fighting..

Example: Mr.x Has never had a 'real' fight, but has 3 years formal training in tae kwondo.

Mr.y has no formal training but has been in 15 fights (at the pub, street, etc etc)

My money is on Mr y.

Although, usually in formal training you spar which is similar to 'practice'.

What I said just made no sense...:loon:

[bandits1]

Noc said:

Like a few of you have said, equal measures would be ideal, but what I have noticed, "in martial arts" is a person can have trained for 3-4 years, and be beaten by someone who has no FORMAL training, but has had experience fighting..

Example: Mr.x Has never had a 'real' fight, but has 3 years formal training in tae kwondo.

Mr.y has no formal training but has been in 15 fights (at the pub, street, etc etc)

My money is on Mr y.

Although, usually in formal training you spar which is similar to 'practice'.

What I said just made no sense...:loon:

This scenario all depends on how Mr.X has trained. If he engaged in full-speed, full-contact randori or sparring like in judo or jiujitsu, I'd say the martial artist is pretty well prepared to incorporate his what he's learned into a real-live street fight. I'd put my money on Mr. X.

Now if all the martial artist has done is kata or attacked a defenseless heavy bag then, yes, I'd probably put my money on Mr.Y.

[Noc]

True, it does depend on the training. I can only base my assumption of life experience though. And alot of the time, people who have only done the basic introduction into say, karate, judo, tae kwondo, have a bit of an ego problem.

[FFG]

I know next to nothing about melee or unarmed combat, so my comments are made for firearms only.

Training has it's place. But professional training is usually expensive. It is also usually of narrow focus. Self Defense or weapon-type specific(handgun, shotgun, etc). I maintain that working with someone of a much higher skill level is training whether it is professional or not. When my grandfather taught me to shoot we were not in a formal setting. However, he had grown up hunting to put food on the table and worshiped at the alter of firearms safety. I learned tons from him.

Practice is what is available to most of us. I can not afford a training class every month, but I can afford a couple hundred rounds of ammo for practice. The effectiveness of practice depends on...how you practice.

There are many ways to practice. As someone mentioned, if you spend all your time sitting at the bench making small groups in paper, then you are getting good practice for hi-power competition. You are not getting ready for the zombies, unless you are certain to have a nice defended spot and no reason to leave.

If you have a range that allows it (and if not, find a new place to shoot) practice can be very applicable to shtf. Practice shooting while moving. Practice drawing, loading and shooting while moving. Set up targets at different distances. Practice hitting moving targets. Practice shooting with both, strong and off hands. I have practiced loading and chambering handguns one handed. Not easy or fast, but it is possible.

IMHO this kind of practice is very applicable to a zombie situation. Find someplace that holds IDPA competition and give that a try. You will have to shoot, move and load under pressure. No where near the pressure of a hoard of zombies, but it does make you aware of the time.

Training is good (sometimes great) but practice helps a lot if it is done properly.

[CAVU45]

Good points made by all. One thing to remember is that firearms practice doesn't have to take place just at the range. One can practice drawing, aiming, and reloading at home with an empty gun and magazine. Shoot and move likewise can be praticed with a good airsoft gun in ones own home. Not all of us have access to a range that hosts IPSC or similar matches or large plots of acreage we can shoot on. So use the technology that's available.

[FFG]

CAVU45 said:

Good points made by all. One thing to remember is that firearms practice doesn't have to take place just at the range. One can practice drawing, aiming, and reloading at home with an empty gun and magazine. Shoot and move likewise can be praticed with a good airsoft gun in ones own home. Not all of us have access to a range that hosts IPSC or similar matches or large plots of acreage we can shoot on. So use the technology that's available.

Quite true.

When practicing loading in the house, remember to use empty mags. Practice loading non-mag guns (shotguns, revolver speed loaders) with snap caps or other inert rounds.

Dry fire practice is valuable and you can really work on trigger control if you dry-fire with a laser bore-sighter in place.

There is now a "practice laser". It is basically a laser bore-sighter, that flashes on in response to the sound of the hammer falling. I have not tried it yet, but it sounds interesting. Gun-blast did a review.

http://www.gunblast....yte-Trainer.htm

[kiltedninja]

I have practice with shooting without sights, but not much. I have practice taking aimed shots, quite a bit, I have practice hitting people with my hands, boots, elbows, head, whatever's handy really, and I have some practice with my sword and machete sword.

[Dave Of The Dead]

I think in relation to shotguns, the best practice you can have is shooting clays. If you can shoot your fair share of clay pigeons, then you're probably well qualified to take your sights toward a zombie.

[Darkness]

FFG said:

Dry fire practice is valuable and you can really work on trigger control if you dry-fire with a laser bore-sighter in place.

"I was taught that firing a gun, of any kind, without a bullet in the chamber, if that's what you mean by 'dry firing', is very harmful to the gun."

"This holds for Bows as well."

[Dave Of The Dead]

Darkness said:

"I was taught that firing a gun, of any kind, without a bullet in the chamber, if that's what you mean by 'dry firing', is very harmful to the gun."

"This holds for Bows as well."

I was also told that, especially for bows. Though, I'm not too convinced by it, since it does the exact same thing when nocked or loaded.

[FFG]

Darkness said:

"I was taught that firing a gun, of any kind, without a bullet in the chamber, if that's what you mean by 'dry firing', is very harmful to the gun."

"This holds for Bows as well."

Some firearms(Star BM comes to mind) could damage a firing pin when the hammer is dropped on an empty chamber. With most modern firearms, this is not an issue. The manual may list if dry-firing is safe or you could contact the manufacturer.

You can buy snap caps that are cartridge-shaped bits of plastic and metal. These go in the chamber and give the firing pin something off of which to rebound. I have never heard of any problem dry-firing with snap caps.

For the record I have dry fired most of my handguns hundreds (in some case thousands) of times with no ill effect.

[FFG]

Dave Of The Dead said:

I think in relation to shotguns, the best practice you can have is shooting clays. If you can shoot your fair share of clay pigeons, then you're probably well qualified to take your sights toward a zombie.

Plus it is so very much fun. I plan on busting some clays this weekend with my new (60 year old) Remington 11.

[Dave Of The Dead]

FFG said:

Plus it is so very much fun. I plan on busting some clays this weekend with my new (60 year old) Remington 11.

Nice, I try to go at least twice a month. I'm getting pretty good, but there's still room for improvement.