[ZomBoognish]

Z-Day is very soon said:

in notld 68 last time i saw it the zombies where afraid of fire and light?

I was being half serious, but in Land of the Dead, Big Daddy puts that gas pump through the window of the limousine. Shortly after he sends down a little drum that was on fire. And Boom! Good-bye Kaufman. Plus, zombies are very clumsy little bastards and I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow accidentally started a fire.

[Subgenius]

Zombies love Kentucky Fried Humans.

Big Daddy and Bub were extremely rare for zombies. Both had very intact bodies and heads. I don't recall that either of them had ever been shot of bludgeoned. I think that the most dangerous zombies in any Romero film would have to be the most intact zombies. They likely have the greatest capacity or ability to recover most of their previous life memories.

They could even recall actual memories and not just stuff that had been repetitive in their former lives. The discussion that Peter and the others had about why the zombies went to the mall is really telling. I know that, like with my signature quote, what Peter (and John in Day of the Dead, 1985) say may or may not be truth or Truth; true in the story versus True commentary between Romero and the audience through the dialogue of his characters.

[Evil Pug]

Well we all know now that Cooper (NOTLD 68 ) was right. Remember he had a wife and kid to think about. No way in hell your going to take a chance running by them or jumping from the roof ect... Take all your supplies,radio/tv,food and reinforce the basement door and wait it out. IMHO Ben was the biggest problem.

[Subgenius]

Evil Pug said:

Well we all know now that Cooper (NOTLD 68 ) was right. Remember he had a wife and kid to think about. No way in hell your going to take a chance running by them or jumping from the roof ect... Take all your supplies,radio/tv,food and reinforce the basement door and wait it out. IMHO Ben was the biggest problem.

I agreed with Ben. I would rather have a running chance than get blocked in and starved out. That basement did not look so well stocked that it could support six or seven people for any extended period. The zombies would have filled up the house, cut off escape, and you'd be trapped.

But, a point in Cooper's favor would be that the rescue DID come at the end of the film. People came and found them and so forth. So, Cooper was right all along, but how could he have really known that? I would have been like Ben, and I would not have trusted that people were coming or that I could wait out the zombies.

[Evil Pug]

Behemoth said:

Err, i may be wrong but wasn't mr coopers daughter infected? If my memory is correct, i fail to see how any person of sane mind & body would say it's a good idea to lock oneself in a basement with a ZOMBIE!:loon:

Well no one then knew she was infected. The only thing they knew that the recent dead would become a ghoul. Like I said before, Cooper was right about the basement being the safest place to go. Ben was only concern about keeping all options open for himself. Because of Ben, two got roasted going for the gasoline. Ben was the cause of what the outcome came to be. If they had all gone to the basement (like Cooper said) they would have survived. When the daughter turned to being undead most likely they would have tied her up and not killed her. But thanks to Ben this did not happen.

[Evil Pug]

Behemoth said:

Well as the poster above mentioned, you think the venerable mr copper was gonna let his daughter get all tied up? No way! He would have then demanded to smash open the basement and take his daughter to hospital.

When someone comes at you with a spade to stab you...yea I think that he would let her be tied up then!:doh:

[ZombiesAteMyDog]

having seen the movie all the way through, its obvious which choice was the right one, only ben lives ( well he doesnt live, but the zombies dont get him ), so since the zombies coudlnt get to ben in the basement and he was able to just ride it out, I would have to go with the basement, plus if there wasnt all that hullabalo and yelling and fighting not as many zombies would have came in to try and beat down that door , the odds of the house starting on fire or the zombies starting a fire is slim to none IMO, how often does your house catch fire?

[Subgenius]

Behemoth said:

Well i must have seen a different film, i don't recall his daughter coming at anyone with a spade. Angry men do not behave rationally.

I thought that the daughter in the 1968 original NOTLD attacked the mother with a small gardening spade. In the remake, they saw that the use of the spade in the original gave more mental power to that zombie than it needed. So, in the 1990 remake of NOTLD (I just watched it this morning, LOL), the daughter attacked her mother in the basement. They tipped a hat to the original NOTLD by showing the blood splatter on the wall where the small spade hung on a nail. The blood splatters across the handle and blade of the small spade.

[UNDEAD FRED]

I dont see how anyone can say Ben was wrong. It seemed like Harry Cooper barely cared about his sick daughter, while Ben wanted to get the gas, and try to get Cooper's daughter medicle attention. I think if Harry Cooper got the gas, he would of took off right away, only thinking of his own skin.

[Subgenius]

UNDEAD FRED said:

I dont see how anyone can say Ben was wrong. It seemed like Harry Cooper barely cared about his sick daughter, while Ben wanted to get the gas, and try to get Cooper's daughter medicle attention. I think if Harry Cooper got the gas, he would of took off right away, only thinking of his own skin.

I agree. Every time I watch either version of NOTLD, I end up hating Cooper more and more. Ben had good and bad ideas. But, at least he had created options rather than deciding on just one way to go. In Cooper's defense, I would say that his daughter had been bitten, not shot or torn apart; she had not been so wounded or damaged that immediate panic had been called for in his situation. He may have thought she had a fever and would sleep it off. I know, it's not how I would react either. If my daughter went into a fever, then I would be near panicked to get her to medical attention or medicine. It just seemed that Cooper did not take it as deadly. But, I think that the real deal with Cooper had to do with fear and self-preservation. I think that he would have left his wife and daughter behind and taken off as you said.

[UNDEAD FRED]

Harry Cooper really didnt care about his wife, and daughter in NOTLD90 but thats a whole new deal there.

[Devilspaintbrush]

take the supplies upstairs and knock out the stairs...

no worries on the pumps

take out enough of them to create a hole that you can get through and lead them off..have the womens cover ya as ya get gas

Kill mouthy guy at first sign of ANY disobedience...


When in doubt? Be ruthless!!

[Evil Pug]

Behemoth said:

Well i must have seen a different film, i don't recall his daughter coming at anyone with a spade. Angry men do not behave rationally.

Watch the movie here.

http://video.google....earch&plindex=0

I have just watched it again and now know that not only was Harry Cooper right about staying put in the basement, but he was also the hero of the movie. Ben was the bad guy. Ben refuse to help Barbara find her brother Johnny and then beats her unconscious. When Cooper bravely opens the cellar door to see who is there, Ben tries to lay a guilt trip on him for hiding in the basement. Cooper informs him that he was only trying to safeguard his family and two locals from town. Cooper then generously offers Ben sanctuary in the basement. Ben replies "That cellar is a deathtrap, man!" Cooper then tries to get Barbara (who is in shock) down to safety in the basement and Ben stops him by saying "She stays up here with me!" Cooper ask Ben for food for his sick daughter and Ben refuses and said "I'm fighting for everything up here!" Ben keeps being confrontational with Cooper and browbeats the other survivers into his viewpoint on strategy. Even though Cooper knows that Ben's plan for getting gas for the truck is reckless and dangerous, he humbly helps anyway. Cooper has the dangerous job of throwing molotov cocktails at the ghouls to clear a path for Ben and Tom. When Ben is slow to leave (fear ?), Cooper runs down the stairs and tells them to go. While guarding the door, Tom's girlfriend Judy tries to go outside. Cooper stops her briefly but she breaks away. I swear you can see the pain in Cooper's eyes when this happens! He follows Ben's order and locks the door and goes to safeguard the cellar door. I have read alot about the danger of fire on this thread. Well, Ben is a firebug! He kills and then lights on fire one zombie right next to the porch! He then pours lighter fluid on a chair and sets it on fire right outside another door! He makes a torch out of a table leg and takes it with him to a gasoline pump! Then he shoots a lock off the pump! Well thanks to Ben, Tom and Judy are toast. On his way back to the house, Ben leaves the still smoldering torch outside that a zombie will later use to beat down the door with. Cooper is horrified at seeing Tom and Judy being burn to death because of Ben's actions. Ben easily kicks in the door and struggles to nail the door shut again. Cooper is rightly concern about helping Ben but bravely does so anyway. So how does Ben react, by giving Cooper a beatdown. Cooper now knows that Ben is a danger to him and his family. He tells his wife Helen that he has to get the gun away from Ben. Helen (her mind poison by Ben's rhetoric) is less than supportive. When the final zombie attack starts, Cooper takes the opportunity to get the gun away from the crazed Ben. Even now Cooper tries to reason with Ben to go to the basement! When he is distracted by Helen, Ben knocks the rifle out of Cooper's hands and in cold blood murders Cooper! Cooper uses all of his last strength to get to his daughter side. His last thoughts were about his kid! Helen is being attacked and poor Barbara who has been sitting on the couch the whole time in danger (thanks to Ben) finally comes out of shock and comes to Helen's aid. Helen flees to the basement to find little Karen eating her brave and noble father! Horrified by this sight, Helen meekly dies by being stab (yes I counted) 14 times with a spade. Barbara is now helping Ben defend the door. She is grabbed by her zombie brother and dragged outside. Does Ben go out to rescue her? No. He retreats to the "deathtrap" and locks himself in. Ben then shoots Cooper 3 more times and Helen only once after they resurrect. I know that most of you feel that when Ben is shot, it's a tragedy. I call it ironic justice!

[Evil Pug]

Quote:
Well her brother was dead ( infected ) so he was right, she slapped him first & she was getting hysterical. Ben saved Barbara twice, once when Ben arrived at the house she was gonna walk out the door into the arms of the zombies & when inside the house when Barbara was sitting in the chair, Ben took care of that zombie aswell. Remind me how many did Harry take care of?


1. Ben did not know if Johnny was dead. He refused to help her find him. You don't beat a woman who is in shock. Was Ben saving Barbara or just securing the house for himself? Harry took out 2 zombies with the molotov cocktails.

Quote:
Because he wanted the protection of others, no generosity there.

2. Harry was already safe down in the basement. He took a great risk by opening that cellar door.

Quote:
Again, the actions of a rational man in the circumstances, he knew zombies were afraid of fire, he made the rational decision to burn the armchair to keep the zombies away from the house which gave him time to board the place up, he was right again.

3. If the wind blew back the flames all in the house could easily have been killed. Ben never had a solid plan for dealing with the situation. This lack of planning is what made Ben dangerous to be around with.

Quote:
No they were toast because they were too frantic to carry the task out, not Bens fault.

4. Ben carries a lit torch to a gasoline pump! Ben laids down the torch next to the truck right by the gas cap! Ben shoots the lock off the gasoline pump and gasoline is spilling everywhere! BEN'S FAULT!

Quote:
So i suppose if someone locked you out to be eaten alive by zombies you would shake him by the hand & hand him a cigar?

5. Harry followed Ben's order to lock the door behind him. Harry could have just locked the cellar door and be safe but he put his life on the line by keeping it open and then he bravely goes to Ben's aid to secure the front door. Harry's actions saved Ben.

Quote:
Not at all, she fist had her doubts about Harry when he insisted they stay in the basement rather than listen to the radio broadcast, Ben had not even seen her.

6. All married couples have their little disputes but Ben was acting like a schoolyard bully. Abusing people both physically and mentally!

Quote:
No sense in him being eaten aswell, once again the action of a man who tried his best in a difficult situation, who was given little or no help from Harry Cooper. I do not say Bens behaviour was impecable, he could have handled things with Mr Cooper a bit better, however that would not have gained him any favours, from my own experience people like Cooper are just plain belligerent.

7. Harry practically begged Ben to go into the cellar the whole time. If Ben had just listen to Harry, all of them but Karen would have survived. Harry saved Ben's life but the bitter and hateful Ben murders the good and kind Harry in cold blood! Ben's actions got everyone killed, even himself. In todays world Ben would be a prime candidate for a anger management class.

Quote:
Thanks for the link to the film by the way
8. Your welcome!