[Dead Crow]

Hey, gang.

I just found this and had to share. Somebody's doing a Kickstarter for a real-life anti-zombie martial art. The team says they're made up of fight instructors and special forces operators, and that they've got a full system--complete with rules of engagement and multi-level defense.

It's...well, half of me thinks it's goofy, half of me thinks it's brilliant. The video isn't great--they spend way too much time trying to tell a story, or something. But the art looks cool and the write up really is interesting.

Nobody's ever done a decent take on how to fight zombies. It'd be cool if this one does it right.

Zombie Self-Defense
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/163783225/zombie-self-defense

[Faran Brigo]

Honestly with the exception of the first move the dude was trying to teach to the lady (assuming it's dumbed down a lot in the vid), it looks ineffective to me.

[SWAT Zombie]

Yikes!!

They're asking $15,000 in donations? For what? To develop something that no one will ever need? If they were a group of martial arts enthusiasts who were also into zombies and they played around with ideas for what might be effective moves against zombies then sure, why not? It's a bit of fun. But $15,000?

Having said that, I'd be interested to see what they come up with. Not enough to donate myself but if they were to demonstrate it I'd have a look.

[Faran Brigo]

SWAT Zombie, on 04 September 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Yikes!!

They're asking $15,000 in donations? For what? To develop something that no one will ever need? If they were a group of martial arts enthusiasts who were also into zombies and they played around with ideas for what might be effective moves against zombies then sure, why not? It's a bit of fun. But $15,000?

Having said that, I'd be interested to see what they come up with. Not enough to donate myself but if they were to demonstrate it I'd have a look.

I'll save you the time: It's aikijujutsu meets RBSD.

[mattifikation]

Yeah... Pretty sure I could invent an anti-zombie martial art for absolutely free in my own backyard. It's not like there's any legal regulation on how effective a martial art has to be, especially if it's designed to fight fictional creatures. Strictly speaking, you could teach people yoga and tell them it's Kung Fu and there's not fuck all anyone could do about it, except not do business with you.

And for what it's worth, I'd rather fight a McDojo trained kung fu student than somebody who's been doing serious yoga their entire adult life any day. If a fight goes to the ground, flexibility is more of an asset than going "HIYA!" and spinning around with your legs out.

[SWAT Zombie]

Faran Brigo, on 06 September 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

I'll save you the time: It's aikijujutsu meets RBSD.

I'm already convinced that any real martial artist will already be capable of dealing with a zombie. Not the McDojo types Matt mentioned, of course, but someone who's properly trained. Alot of people seem to assume that martial arts is only learning to fight martial arts. In my opinion learning to deal with a savage brawler is generally more important than dealing with a ninja type of fighter. You'd be more likely to encounter brawlers. One of the things I liked about my most recent school was that they were actually mindful of the potential for an opponent to bite in an encounter. Avoiding bites was one of the things we'd focus on in our training.

There wasn't too much emphasis on using pain either. Firstly, someone drugged up, fired up or just with a high pain threshhold might render pain useless, or less useful at least. Also the body has evolved to react to pain defensively. It can sometimes let them know something is wrong and allow them to defend against it. Not that pain was never a part of the techniques taught. Just that they were just one of the factors involved in alot of techniques. Along with leverage, attacking pressure points/nerves, taking advantage of physiological weaknesses etc.

[Vorpal]

This anti-zombie martial arts is likely to give people a false sense of security. Someone that learned it might stick around and fight it out until they realize they're overwhelmed. By then they're zombie chow.

[SWAT Zombie]

Vorpal, on 06 September 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

This anti-zombie martial arts is likely to give people a false sense of security. Someone that learned it might stick around and fight it out until they realize they're overwhelmed. By then they're zombie chow.

Any martial arts training can potentially give someone a false sense of security in any situation. There does seem to be alot of people who don't realise that doing martial arts doesn't give you a big red S on your chest. Every school I've trained at has always drilled it in that martial arts is for self preservation. Looking for trouble isn't conducive to that. No matter how good you are there will always be a person or situation you can't handle.

You do what you have to to deal with the threat and no more.

Also, a false sense of security can come in different forms. Having an assault rifle might make someone feel invincible against zombies and end up with them becoming zombie chow but you don't discard it because of that. You just have to be mindful that real life isn't like the movies.

[Faran Brigo]

Vorpal, on 06 September 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

This anti-zombie martial arts is likely to give people a false sense of security. Someone that learned it might stick around and fight it out until they realize they're overwhelmed. By then they're zombie chow.

AFAIK, army combatives don't cause infantrymen to rush pillboxes with their bare hands. Doesn't seem like knowing a martial art would make you try to kill a crowd of zombies by yourself, unless you're the kind of fool that would rush to "the mall" at the first sign of trouble.

The real problem IMO is in the demonstration video we get to see a... poorly executed mechanical technique, a supinating hold and small joint manipulation, all of them of little use against an anesthethized oponent, let alone one that just can't feel pain. Hell just look at the stills, several of them are a big bite risk.

[Note: Of course designing a new martial art to fight a fictional opponent is dumb as hell and a waste of money. It's kind of obvious.]

[badboy00z]

That's dumb. What do they want $15,000 for??

[SWAT Zombie]

They say on the page that the money is for production and publishing type costs. I suppose if you look at it in a similar way as you'd see the Zombie Survival Guide, ie. a professionally published faux survival manual for entertainment purposes, it makes a bit more sense.

[Dead Crow]

The cost actually doesn't bother me. Publishing's expensive. Printing and shipping alone is going to cost you a mint. And they're talking about close to 1000 illustrations, that's got to be paid for, too.

Granted, they're probably padding their pockets a bit in there as well, but why else would you do it? It'd be stupid to do all that work and not get paid. Assuming they're not lying about how much time, effort, and skills have gone into this, it seems reasonable to me.

Relatedly, I sent them an email yesterday, making some general comments about what I've seen in terms of techniques and asked about the myers bar. Here's their response.

They also have posted a kind of...sample up on the kickstarter. They say it's just a taste of what will be in the book.
http://www.kickstart...f-defense/posts

Crow

-----

Hey, Jack. Thanks for writing in.

You're absolutely right in your assessment; there is a lot of judo and aikido in Gekisai Akuma. That's because those arts excel at putting people on the ground with a minimal amount of effort and using only biomechanics (rather than pain or damage). There are also elements of Lung Shao Kung Fu, Muai Thai, MCMAP, Krav Maga, and a number of other systems.

Basically, the art evolved by a group of us imagining the different ways a zombie can attack, then addressing each one using a combination of skills from our assorted knowledge base. But, there's only so many ways to put a (undead) human being on the ground, so you'll see a lot that looks familiar.

The biggest difference, however, is what we don't do: we only make contact with the head when it's absolutely necessary, we ensure contact minimizes exposure to the virus, and we don't execute any techniques that rely on pain to be successful.

As for the Myers bar, it is our version of the ultimate zombie apocalypse e-tool; having both utility and combat elements. It's essentially an over-sized tomahawk optimized for killing corpses, that includes essentials for breaching and performing utility duties.

We've been waiting for the final, polished version to come back from our smith before we post pictures (because our mock-ups are ugly. Functional, but ugly.), but we've been offering to send schematics and pictures of prototypes to people looking to buy-in at the Legendary level.

Holler if you have any other questions.

Thanks again.

Greg

[Faran Brigo]

Dead Crow, on 07 September 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

The cost actually doesn't bother me. Publishing's expensive... Assuming they're not lying about how much time, effort, and skills have gone into this, it seems reasonable to me.

It's still 15,000 bucks to develop a martial art for fighting movie monsters.

If Mr. Greg really said that there's no "pain compliance", that flies in the face of what I saw on the video. Yes, the tendons hyperextend, that's when a human quits, a zombie will just keep going and tear them off. I can assure you (from experience), the reason why you don't get up when you're on the recieving end of "Step 12" is because you feel like your arm is tearing off, not because you phisically can't.

And, as others have already pointed out there, most of us don't go around in kevlar, or thick warm clothing during spring and summer. So it's only nifty if you didn't get a chunk off your back bit off during steps 1 through 5. Which is ironic given aikido alone (and I'm not a fan of it, but credit where it's due) has plenty of better escapes from that situation.

[massacre07]

I am always dubious of things which are advertisied like this as special forces, covert operators and martial arts experts.. honestly without being able to prove claims like this anyone can come on the internet and say they're Bruce Lee or that they were in the special forces and you check out their chai tea...

Selling things like these on the internet is a little like the old days of advertisements in the back of old comic books and magazines.. there is somewhere to send your money but you're never REALLY sure what you're going to be getting back in exchange.

[Vorpal]

I'm not saying that the training will cause the anti-zombie MA students to rush headlong into combat. But once contact has been made the option to run may fade from their mind especially after a few successful moves.

[SWAT Zombie]

Vorpal, on 09 September 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

I'm not saying that the training will cause the anti-zombie MA students to rush headlong into combat. But once contact has been made the option to run may fade from their mind especially after a few successful moves.

That can happen to anyone. Someone with a club or a gun might get over confident after a couple of successful headshots. We were always warned against over confidence in every martial arts school I've trained at. The concept does get covered. I've never been taught that we were invincible or can take on the world. Being mindful of how vulnerable we are is one of the ways to preserve your well being. If you get the opportunity to get out of there, do it. Your ego isn't worth your life. Not that we were taught to be paranoid, just that nobody is unbeatable.

[Faran Brigo]

massacre07, on 08 September 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

I am always dubious of things which are advertisied like this as special forces, covert operators and martial arts experts.. honestly without being able to prove claims like this anyone can come on the internet and say they're Bruce Lee or that they were in the special forces and you check out their chai tea...

QFT. I got ripped off by a McDojo before I knew better. I got certain issues, so when I felt uncomfortable with the guy spewing about how important it was to be "ready for everything, anytime anywhere" and he had (and this part always ticked me off) "more than 20 years experience on karate, tae-kwon do, kickboxing" and a bunch of other stuff that was hip at the time, I chalked it up to newbie jitters on my part. Having actually rolled with BJJ guys (BJJ absolutely lives up to the hype it has nowdays IMO) gave me a taste of the difference between the McDojo version and the real thing, and then I found a better place where I had jujitsu and ONLY jujitsu (not BJJ though). 3 years and somedays I still feel like a newbie at it, but not because my instructor was a show-off or a fraud, quite the contrary, because often you find out that there's still a lot to learn.

So IMO a big difference between good MA and McDojo product is a healthy dose of humility (frequently in the form of having to tap out, eating mat or otherwise being reminded that there's always room for improvement) to temper the confidence that comes with learning to do things right.

[Vorpal]

SWAT Zombie, on 09 September 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Vorpal, on 09 September 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

I'm not saying that the training will cause the anti-zombie MA students to rush headlong into combat. But once contact has been made the option to run may fade from their mind especially after a few successful moves.

That can happen to anyone. Someone with a club or a gun might get over confident after a couple of successful headshots. We were always warned against over confidence in every martial arts school I've trained at. The concept does get covered. I've never been taught that we were invincible or can take on the world. Being mindful of how vulnerable we are is one of the ways to preserve your well being. If you get the opportunity to get out of there, do it. Your ego isn't worth your life. Not that we were taught to be paranoid, just that nobody is unbeatable.

Neither a club nor a gun is specifically anti-zombie. This martial arts is specific to being able to take on zombies. The question is, will they tell their students that they shouldn't get over confident even though no zombies exist, or will they let them believe they can take on the zombie world because they can get away with it? It would certainly sell better letting people believe they can stop any and all zombies. And if zombies did come into existence, would what they told them matter by then? It's not like there will be anyone around or a court to uphold someone suing them.

[SWAT Zombie]

Vorpal, on 11 September 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

Neither a club nor a gun is specifically anti-zombie. This martial arts is specific to being able to take on zombies. The question is, will they tell their students that they shouldn't get over confident even though no zombies exist, or will they let them believe they can take on the zombie world because they can get away with it? It would certainly sell better letting people believe they can stop any and all zombies. And if zombies did come into existence, would what they told them matter by then? It's not like there will be anyone around or a court to uphold someone suing them.

That applies to real life opponents too and is one of the differences between quality training and a McDojo.

Besides all that in my opinion you'd be better off doing a real martial art as opposed to specifically zombie training. Zombies won't be the only enemy you're going to encounter in the ZPAW. These kinds of techniques (assuming they don't turn out to be complete crap) should be add ons to your existing training. But in all likelihood the techniques will be just as suited to real life opponents as zombies. As I've said, there are techniques for dealing with pain resistant or drugged up people. The bodies mechanics won't change. You can break a zombies bones as easily as a humans. More easily probably. Snap a leg and hinder their pursuit. Break arms and they can't grab at you. Snap the neck and they'll lose biting power if they can still walk at all. Zombies still have a human's structural weaknesses. Also the goal doesn't necessarily have to be to kill them. It can just be to escape or to get hold of a weapon.

[Faran Brigo]

SWAT Zombie, on 11 September 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

Besides all that in my opinion you'd be better off doing a real martial art as opposed to specifically zombie training. Zombies won't be the only enemy you're going to encounter in the ZPAW. These kinds of techniques (assuming they don't turn out to be complete crap) should be add ons to your existing training. But in all likelihood the techniques will be just as suited to real life opponents as zombies...

I have to disagree here.

While there are things that can apply to zombies and regular humans (fundamental body mechanics, some takedowns, etc.), "pain resistant" is very different from "physiologically incapable of pain". That means a huge portion of anything involving submissions has to be altered or dropped since a zombie will not hesitate to break its own limbs to bite you. More than that, bites are ineffective coming from human opponents so most martial arts ignore them (and rightly so), from zombies they're lethal, and that's not even getting into say, exposed jagged bone or trying to go for (example) an armbar and having the arm break on you while the zombie gnaws on your torso. On the other hand, they have very poor speed and dexterity, so you can also try things that just wouldn't work on a live human because he's not dumb enough.

Few reputable martial arts schools will teach you (reliably) how to kill people (excluding things like LINE, MCMAP, Krav maga, and whatever the hell the SEALs use), simply because those kind of techniques can't be practiced with the necessary safety, as well as the fact that lethal force goes well beyond self defense and straight into murder or at least manslaughter, which will definitely get them in legal trouble should anything bad happen.