[kiltedninja]

So generally it is understood that people will set into a defense, but what about eyes on the outside? How about going out on patrols? Security patrols? Reconnaissance? How would you do it and where would you locate your main firepower (shotguns and high power rifles vs pistols and smaller rifles)?

[Faran Brigo]

At the beggining, I think most survivor groups just won't have the resources necessary to do constant patrols. They might be short on manpower simply for tasks like fortifying their own positions and trying to fend off the zombies as it is. Plus patrolls mean combat and sustained combat requires a supply chain that just isn't there. I understand the primary purpose of patrolling is to avoid nasty surprises and to keep the enemy off balance, but not much chance of the second part happening, and zombies don't seem all that sneaky imho.

Recon is a whole other thing, can't imagine any group lasting long without knowing where the big concentrations of zombies are or where to get supplies. And I'm (maybe naive here) more worried about the persons scouting knowing how to use a map, navigate, register the info and keep a low profile than armaments and such. Loadout would depend on the circumstances (How long are they expected to go out? how far? Where are they going? Any obstacles on the way that need special equipment or a lighter load?) and what we have on hand/can get before carrying out the task.

In general though, I think recon teams should be small, two or three persons at most. They should travel as light as possible and carry light weapons and limited ammunition, they should avoid rather than fight zombies. Also, they should carry mostly silent weapons (melee, supressed guns or even crossbows if available) to avoid giving away their position since they will be always outnumbered. They should try not to leave traces of their movements or presence, since somebody might track them back and endanger the rest of the group. No point in carrying stuff to spend the night unless they're out in the boonies, housing is probably going to be the only thing in abundance during zpaw, well that and zombies.

I'm thinking the heavier, more powerful stuff should be kept in reserve. Although it might seem counterintuitive, I don't think patrols need rifles with a lot of power and/or range, since zombies have to close in and fight hand to hand with you every single time, and to fight other humans effectively you should have some sort of advantage that a scouting team won't have (superior numbers, support, preparation, etc).

[kiltedninja]

Recon patrols are my primariy concern. I would want to know what's going on and what I have at my disposal in the immediate area. Recon teams are typically smaller than a normal combat patrol, however even in a recon team they carry some good firepower(in the corps case they carry SAWs and other weapons similar to that). In case the undesirable happens. I agree that recon teams should understand maps, and they should roll light. In the case of my ideas, I'd have either a 2 or 4 man team so no one is going to roll alone if avoidable and still divide the group. I'd like to have at least one shotgun or rifle per pair, and other than that, pistols and melee weapons.

[Faran Brigo]

kiltedninja, on 29 June 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

Recon patrols are my primariy concern. I would want to know what's going on and what I have at my disposal in the immediate area. Recon teams are typically smaller than a normal combat patrol, however even in a recon team they carry some good firepower(in the corps case they carry SAWs and other weapons similar to that). In case the undesirable happens. I agree that recon teams should understand maps, and they should roll light. In the case of my ideas, I'd have either a 2 or 4 man team so no one is going to roll alone if avoidable and still divide the group. I'd like to have at least one shotgun or rifle per pair, and other than that, pistols and melee weapons.

The marines ride you hard until your ass can actually carry that M249, ammo and the essentials without compromising your speed and endurance, and not make yourself obvious to anyone with ears though. Statistically, we're more liable than not to deal with people without that level of training and expertise.

Even then, I remember reading a few articles on army.mil and military.com that talked about the average infantryman in the U.S. armed forces being more than 10-20 pounds overburdened, SAW gunners and assistants being the worst offenders. I think that would definitely impair how fast you can move and how far you can go, even if you're in great shape. Lots of undesireable stuff happens, but really, if you need something like a light mg at any point against zombies, you probably have more zombies on you than you have ammo. And if you need it against raiders, you're in a real FUBAR situation.

Crazy idea here, but recon teams operating in suburban areas could probably put bikes to good use. Silent, easy to repair, no fuel and faster/less tiring than walking or running. Even if you lose it, it's probably easier to get another bike than a working car/motorcycle. When you say rifle, are you talking about an AR or something long range like a hunting rifle?

[kiltedninja]

I know, I carried the SAW til my battalion got the m27s(named after the battalion Im in btw), theyre only marginally heavier than the m16s and far less cumbersome than the SAW and jams less too. The 27 is nice and after the SAW I move fast as they come. But if they moved slow with it, their seniors failed them.

I mean a rifle, AR, hunting rifle, whatever you happen to have, but I like ARs.

[daewoo]

I wouldn't do much security patrols, lack of manpower & its unnecessary. in the early days of the Z-PAW my group will install dozens of cameras everywhere so we can keep an eye on things without being there.
as for recon it's a 2 part process.
half the recon you do now, before the Z-PAW. you scout out everything and everyplace that holds the stuff you need and everything that stands between you can where this place is.

when the Z-PAW happens you'll know where to go beforehand, also have a good idea where the people will mob- like supermarkets & warehouse stores- and stay away from them. also you'll know what places on your places to hit list are likely to be looted empty based on proximity to residences or how many people pass thru the area daily. so a gun store on a busy street, even if the majority of the people who pass thru the area daily don't have anything to do with guns they'll likely remember there's a gun store there and chances are come Z-day these people will mob the place. by the time you get to it in 5-7 days everything that's not bolted down would be stolen. the businesses nearby stocking foods or other useful supplies will probably be looted empty too, making the trip pointless unless you know they got a huge safe in the back and it's unlikely anyone would bust in there. then it might be worth a scouting trip.

the other half of the recon you do in Z-PAW, confirming whether your hypotheses drawn long ago were correct or not. doing recon before the apocalypse will reduce the chances or sending people into very dangerous areas that offer little rewards for the cost to go there, and also increase scouting for supplies efficiency, you already know where to go.

my recon/scouting parties would be typically 2-6 people, good shots, know the area well, good judgement in times of high stress, and good people people, able to meet or at least escape hostile survivors without gunfire. other survivors are likely to be distrustful or afraid of strangers, as there would be many looters or raiders that have broken their trust repeatedly, they will not trust any strangers.

scout = day
recon = night

scout parties are typically 4-6 would travel around in two small cars or hybrid cars. they would be well armed and supplied with normal and suppressed weapons. suppressed for zombies and when they don't want to be noticed. normal if ambushed or otherwise need to fend off a larger attacking force. scout parties would have a few special weapons to hopefully give them an advantage. scouting parties collect information- used to update existing road maps, update maps of zombie population and survivor population, whether an area is hostile or not, and if there's anything left to salvage. Salvage is left to the salvage team to handle.
recon parties are typically 2-3 people, who specialize in stealth. they go out at night, into areas with few zombies, stuff worth salvaging but protected or area claimed by hostiles. recon works to gather information or to turn things in our group's favor by assassinating enemy group leaders. suppressed weapons and crossbow/poison dart, etc.

I wouldn't send teams out with the best weapons or armor, in fact most of my group except a few trusted people would be kept in the dark about any powerful weapons, becasue if anyone's captured and tortured for information they could give the enemy all they need to wipe out my group. This form of information control would also make other survivor groups out there think we don't have anything really worth dying for. Same applies to food stores, water stores, and garden capacity/size.

[kiltedninja]

Ideally, Id send out two, I would probably be on the team and we'd always be close enough to keep comms with our base. One shotgun or rifle per pair and we'd patrol in the immediate area first and push out further as time went on. Probably on bicycles or in my car (I drive a civic hybrid) and see what we could see, gather supplies and what have you.

[Faran Brigo]

@kiltedninja: Could you elaborate on the comms? What kind of range are we talking about here?

@zephyr: 6 people sounds like way too many for a single group.

[kiltedninja]

I'm talking within a few miles. Communications gear. Radios.

And Zephyr, I reckon that the accessible roads of a town change significantly in ZPAW. keep that in mind.

[Faran Brigo]

kiltedninja, on 01 July 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

I'm talking within a few miles. Communications gear. Radios.

And Zephyr, I reckon that the accessible roads of a town change significantly in ZPAW. keep that in mind.

You're talking about military gear I assume, which would be great, but I think perhaps hard to maintain or come by. If something goes wrong with your radios in the marines, are you guys expected to fix or jury-rig it or is it something that has to be dealt with by someone specialized? I'm just trying to get a feel for how easy/hard it would be to keep that stuff running.

If it's too complicated or impractical, is there an alternative that doesn't involve using runners?

[kiltedninja]

No military comm gear sucks. Civilian walkie talkies are way better. If it goes down we have a few things we try to do but if comm goes down and we cant get it back up then the mission is kanked. Civilian walkie talkies you can buy at pretty much any electronics store are better 9 times out of 10. I dont know if its the frequencies, the crpyto or what. But I cant think of a single op we've done where comm hasnt gone down for at least a few minutes. Its usually really bad in the mountains dense woods.

[Vorpal]

Could it be the terrain that's causing the comm problems? Have the civilian walkie talkies been tested on the same terrain?

[kiltedninja]

Yeah, our instructors in Bridgeport used civilian radios, and the civilian contractors that are out at ranges often also do and they rarely if at all have issues with theirs.

[MorganaLeFaye]

raid a Radio Shack for 2-way radios to keep in contact with each other, and I'd do like in Walking Dead (the comic) and put my best shooter in the tallest building in the area. They could report back on zed movements and raiders.

[kiltedninja]

Id keep a second shooter with him as a back up so hes not catching up with yall alone and has another gun to help him should he need it. Plus sitting in an observation/overwatch position for hours on end is boring as all hell and they may fall asleep without another person to keep them awake.

[Icarus]

MorganaLeFaye, on 17 July 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

raid a Radio Shack for 2-way radios to keep in contact with each other, and I'd do like in Walking Dead (the comic) and put my best shooter in the tallest building in the area. They could report back on zed movements and raiders.

If you are using civilian radios you need to keep in mind that anyone can listen in at any time and you won't know it. Unless you are using a well rehearsed code and strict com discipline you risk compromising your whole operation. Would probably have to divide your area up into different sectors and avoid referring to any easy to spot landmarks, which is a lot harder than it sounds if you are trying to relay intel. Further more, if any passing raiders happen to be channel hopping, as I would be raider or no, they will immediately know someone is holed up within a few miles as soon as they get anything at all on the radio. Would be a good way to find new targets if you were so inclined.

You would have to severely limit the use of radios, short bursts perhaps only at specific pre determined times. If at all.

[kiltedninja]

Another reason to roll with some firepoweron patrols.

[Icarus]

kiltedninja, on 30 July 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Another reason to roll with some firepoweron patrols.

You have to remember when you send someone out on patrol there is always a chance they won't come back, if you can spare the fire power and ammo, it's not a problem, but if supplies are severely limited and you only have one or two "heavy weapons" and you send half of them out on patrol and get attacked while they are still gone, you are already creating a situation where you are worse off than you should have been. Hostiles are going to wait until there are the least amount of people/firepower at your HQ before they attack, or at least that's what I would do, if I was so inclined.

A patrol can use escape and evade tactics to avoid a fight, your HQ can not. Either way if half your good guns or heavy weapons (or even best combatants) are out on patrol you are splitting your fire power and your ability to defend/attack before you even start fighting. Once again, in an ideal situation with an over abundance of weapons, ammo and fighters, this is a non issue, but it's never going to be an ideal situation.

+ there is always the possibility that the weapons you send out on patrol are going to be captured and used against you. Send out enough patrols, some of them aren't going to make it back intact.

You need to be prepared to lose whatever you send out on patrol.

[Vorpal]

Icarus, on 28 July 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

If you are using civilian radios you need to keep in mind that anyone can listen in at any time and you won't know it.

That explains it then. Military radios are a little too good. They even give their counterparts trouble in picking up their signal!

[Icarus]

Vorpal, on 31 July 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Icarus, on 28 July 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

If you are using civilian radios you need to keep in mind that anyone can listen in at any time and you won't know it.

That explains it then. Military radios are a little too good. They even give their counterparts trouble in picking up their signal!

I did some research, and turns out you can get digital walkie talkies with encryption, there are some legal issues though, I'm not even sure if they are legal at all in the states, and they cost a fortune.

Something like this (link below) can also be used as an encrypted walkie talkie, apparently, but will only work between the two similar models and won't pick up any other frequencies.

http://reviews.cnet....7-31484677.html
No idea about reliability, but I wouldn't trust them. Too many things to go wrong with complicated items.

As for military radios, they are out dated, cumbersome and unreliable. At lest the ones that the British army were using until fairly recently were. Not sure about anywhere else.