Snipers on Z day

[JakAttak]

I've been getting flak about my sniper fetish since I joined so just so we can all be adults just say what you think about them and there uses after Zombpocalypse( thats zombie apocalypse).

[Firedude]

From a fortified position they would work excellent and would be an effective way of eliminating the dead from your area. Something that Andy, in Andy's gun shop should have done in DOTD 2004 remake. He had a wide range of calibers and could have been doing head shots while waiting to starve or for the group in the mall to come get him and be removing the opposition at the same time.

If you’re running and gunning, you would be better off having a dual purpose semi-auto rifle (AR type etc) with QD rings were you could switch back and forth between your CQB sight system and an optic with more magnification. I've shot priarie dogs out to 300 yards and a bit beyond with mine and feel head shots are definetly doable (guaranteed at closer ranges). A bolt rifle, though generally more accurate then a semi, would be a bit to slow.

Probably not much reason to have a 1000 yard rifle, unless you were protecting your perimeter from the occasional ZED walking into it.

[Faran Brigo]

I've been getting flak about my sniper fetish since I joined so just so we can all be adults just say what you think about them and there uses after Zombpocalypse( thats zombie apocalypse).

Snipers are good, they're great, just that they have strenghts and weaknesses like any other weapon or tactic. Mostly that while you can find or train marksmen it's going to be much harder to do the same with snipers. They're basically going to do the same functions they do now, assasination of personnel, reconnaisance and overwatch, minus antimateriel missions. They're going to be especially useful against marauders and such.

[bandits1]

First of all: "snipers" and "marksmen/sharpshooters" are two different animals, correct? I think of marksmen as guys who are part of the normal unit/team/group who are more proficient at hitting targets at intermediate-to-long ranges than your average rifleman. I think of snipers as a highly-trained operative sneaking around by himself or with a spotter, covered in camoflage, with the intent on taking out a specific target(s) without ever being seen.

The marksman would be useful almost all the time. If there happens to be a group of infected advancing on your position, he can start taking them out at a range where it would be mostly a waste of bullets for the average shooter. They can take out targets at a distance at a location the group needs to get access to or pass through.

But an actual, real-life, military-trained sniper? Unless you plan on doing a lot of assassinating of other armed survivor groups' leaders and such, I don't think it would necessary to try and find a trained sniper.

I think JakAttak is actually talking about being a marksman or a sharpshooter. Unless you've already received the intense military training and subsequent official designation of "sniper", you'll never be one and you can't just call yourself one because you happen to be a pretty good shot and stuck some twigs in your hair. However - if I saw someone, military or not, able to take out targets reliably and consistantly @ 500+ meters, I wouldn't hesistate to call him a "marksman".

JakAttak - you should use the term "marksman" or "sharpshooter" instead of "sniper" to avoid getting hacked on by other members.

[Dave Of The Dead]

I think it would be a good idea to have a sniper in your group while at a defensive position. He would be a good watchman and could keep zombies at bay from a distance if he had to. It would be good if a huge mod of zeds were coming at your position, the sniper could warn the group for the attack or even to get the hell outta there, while taking out as many as he/she could.

In short, Defensively, the sniper would be great. I'm not so sure about an offensive use except for recon or even to watch over the group during a raid.

[JakAttak]

Oh my god people replied to this.

and I guess marksman would be a good term but I'm a terrible typist and it's so much than sniper and just doesn't resonate as well with people as "sniper"

[bandits1]

Calling yourself a "sniper" when you aren't trained and designated as a sniper by the military doesn't seem to resonate well with anyone.

You can't just call yourself a sniper because you like to wear camoflage, sneak around and hide in your backyard, and shoot stuff. If you shoot well enough, I doubt anyone would object to you calling yourself a "marksman" or "sharpshooter". You should use those terms instead.

[Faran Brigo]

A marksman is a regular infantryman with an accurized weapon usually converted from battle/assault rifles (M14, SDM-R) who's a better than average shot, works with an infantry squad and can engage targets up to 800 mts. Marksmen have basic training and have qualified for the position based on merit (I.E. they're good shots). They use semi auto rifles, because they're also supposed to lay down rapid fire.

A sniper is specialized infantry with a weapon specifically designed for sniping (Barret M82 .50 rifle, M24 bolt action .308), has gone to sniper school, has knowledge beyond the marksman, and operates on a two man team, away from the rest of the forces. They're not supposed to make many rapid shots, just crack one or two, then get back out.

So what you're doing is like saying "machine gun" resonates better than "assault rifle" and that's why you call your Bushmaster 17 semiauto 5.56 a "machine gun". Or saying you're a doctor because you know first aid.

[detpat]

a bushmaster M17 isn't an "assault rifle" either. the terms assault rifle and sniper ar roughly analogous in common usage, which is to say incorrect.

sniper is a position or designation as well as a job description. A police or other civilian sniper or designated marksman is significantly different than a military sniper. Just like a USMC or army sniper is different than a navy or air force designated marksman.

[JakAttak]

how about civilian sniper since I have been taught the basics by my dad who was a sniper I've been taught camouflage and long range target shooting and haw to hit moving targets.

[detpat]

you're a shooter, you need to have formal training and the position to have the title. you can think of yourself as anything you want, but you have to earn the title as with any other.

[Hitman]

just stick with sharpshooter . most police forces don't care for the term sniper anyway as thats not really thier job either. they don't go to a situation planning on taking a shot its mostly for intel and over watch . they will take a shot if needed but it is not always a killing shot .

[Ball Tripper]

People have been called sniper without ever having earned the title before. Just kill a few people from far away and the media will give you a title like the Beltway Sniper.

[Dave Of The Dead]

only because "beltway marksman" doesn't sound as menacing. Snipers have become infamous for being the silent killer whom nobody ever seems to kill and therefore comes with the infamy already associated with the name. Truth be told, nobody likes someone who sneakily kills people unless, of course, the person is on your side.

[Faran Brigo]

People have been called sniper without ever having earned the title before. Just kill a few people from far away and the media will give you a title like the Beltway Sniper.

Calling a chicken a duck doesn't make it a duck.

[IronJayBee]

I cant say that snipers wouldn't be effective against a ghoul, none of us would, but its simply a tactical mistake is you bring it with you to the streets or in a vehicle of somekind. The purpose of a sniper is to strictly get the perfect headshot, but they do not allow for speedy kills like a semi auto would. If you were firing from your safehouse or whatever you would like to call it, it would be excellent considering the maximum accuracy that you would desire in that situation, but if you were on the road, you shouldn't take it with you if you have any better of a weapon.

[bandits1]

People have been called sniper without ever having earned the title before. Just kill a few people from far away and the media will give you a title like the Beltway Sniper.
I don't think JakAttak is talking about wanting to be the infamous-for-assassinating-the-president type of sniper, I think he's talking about wanting to be a highly-trained-marine-recon-scout-sniper type of sniper.

He's not the latter and hopefully will never be the former, either.

[GunSlingerInferno]

Snipers will have their uses, fixed positions and what not, but even when a sniper isn't called for, whats stopping them from picking up a carbine?

[JakAttak]

right I DON'T want to become the former. heh-heh... HE KNOWS TOO MUCH KKKIIIIIIILLLLLLL HIM!!!!!!!!!!

[detpat]

Any superior marksman is gonna be able to familiarize himself with any weapon he finds. I would rather have a reliable bolt action [minus the optics] in a zpaw than an unreliable semi.

[Trumble0]

Why not have the best of Both worlds Bolt action wise?... Get High rise scope mounts or Look-through mounts as some people call them, they allow you to use your scope if you want to, while still leaving your iron sights visible and functional

[bandits1]

right I DON'T want to become the former. heh-heh... HE KNOWS TOO MUCH KKKIIIIIIILLLLLLL HIM!!!!!!!!!!
Too bad. That was your only chance at being referred to as a "sniper" by anyone except yourself.

[redskul83]

I really like snipers also, and being a sniper (and I'm going to assume accurate) you'd be able to pull off some quick head shots with normal assault weapons, I think they'd be a very useful type of person.

[secretcog]

Toe may toe...poe tah toe!

I don't mean to be rude, nor do I want to step on anyones toes, but lemme break this down for you...

A sniper is a title. Nothing more.

Wether an individual has formal schooling, military training, or hands on education...the individual is a sniper if they occupy and practice the position, be it in a security force, resistance group, yadda yadda yadda.

What good is a sniper in a zombie war? What good is a chef, a mechanic, a drug dealer? Answer...they're uninfected!

Scenario...the mechanic knocks out the drug dealer with a wrench, the chef carves slits in the body of the dealer to let out the blood scent, and both the mechanic and the chef drag the drug dealer out into the middle of an empty parking lot. They then take up refuge on top of the building over looking the parking lot where the sniper is perched. The zombies take the bate and the sniper picks them off one by one while the mechanic reloads spare rifles, and the chef cooks them all tacos!

You see...snipers are somebody too! LOL!

[redskul83]

Toe may toe...poe tah toe!

I don't mean to be rude, nor do I want to step on anyones toes, but lemme break this down for you...

A sniper is a title. Nothing more.

Wether an individual has formal schooling, military training, or hands on education...the individual is a sniper if they occupy and practice the position, be it in a security force, resistance group, yadda yadda yadda.

What good is a sniper in a zombie war? What good is a chef, a mechanic, a drug dealer? Answer...they're uninfected!

Scenario...the mechanic knocks out the drug dealer with a wrench, the chef carves slits in the body of the dealer to let out the blood scent, and both the mechanic and the chef drag the drug dealer out into the middle of an empty parking lot. They then take up refuge on top of the building over looking the parking lot where the sniper is perched. The zombies take the bate and the sniper picks them off one by one while the mechanic reloads spare rifles, and the chef cooks them all tacos!

You see...snipers are somebody too! LOL!

True, but I think people meant persons with long ranged sharpshooter training.

[bandits1]

If everyone replaced the word "sniper" with "sharpshooter" or "marksman" in their posts, then I'd say they all make good points.

All the scenarios that have been posted so far require someone who is a fairly skilled shooter...and nothing more. They don't have to be specially-trained in camouflage, field craft, infiltration, reconnaissance, or observation...they just have to be good shots. I think using the term "sniper" to describe your buddy who's a pretty good shot with rifle is using the term a little too loosely.

[ZomCom]

Let me see if I have this right.

A sharpshooter is someone who can hit a zed in the head at 200 yards.

A sniper is someone who can hit a zed in the head at 200 yards, and has a lot of other training that is useless if defending against zombies.

My cousin was an Army sniper who fought in Panama. He could hit a zed in the head at 500 yards. He still can. Heck, maybe a 1000 yards? He still remembers all his training, but he is now old, fat, out of shape, drinks too much, and doesn’t realize he has PTSD. So, is he a sniper (he has actual confirmed kills), or is he just a sharpshooter, or both?

Sniper is an old term that is commonly used to refer to any long range shooter. In the context of a discussion about military marksmen, it has a specific meaning. In any other context, differentiating between the terms sniper and sharpshooter is just pedantic semantics.

So, just shoot me...

[bandits1]

Let me see if I have this right.

A sharpshooter is someone who can hit a zed in the head at 200 yards.

A sniper is someone who can hit a zed in the head at 200 yards, and has a lot of other training that is useless if defending against zombies.

My cousin was an Army sniper who fought in Panama. He could hit a zed in the head at 500 yards. He still can. Heck, maybe a 1000 yards? He still remembers all his training, but he is now old, fat, out of shape, drinks too much, and doesn’t realize he has PTSD. So, is he a sniper (he has actual confirmed kills), or is he just a sharpshooter, or both?

Sniper is an old term that is commonly used to refer to any long range shooter. In the context of a discussion about military marksmen, it has a specific meaning. In any other context, differentiating between the terms sniper and sharpshooter is just pedantic semantics.

So, just shoot me...
I'd still consider your cousin a sniper. He may be older and out-of-shape, but he also wouldn't be the first guy I'd choose to make enemies with. I'm sure he could still be a dangerous fellow if he needed to be.

As far as discussing the difference between the terms "sniper" and "marksman/sharpshooter" being only semantics or not, that's the reason why this thread exists in the first place. The OP is a guy who - despite never having served in the military - insists that he's a "sniper" and we're here in this thread to discuss the merits of that self-designated title.

[mattifikation]

I'm a god.

Well, if by "god," you mean somebody who wants people to worship him. Even though most people would call that a cult leader, I think I'll call myself a god because I like the way it sounds more...

[Faran Brigo]

A sharpshooter is someone who can hit a zed in the head at 200 yards.

A sniper is someone who can hit a zed in the head at 200 yards, and has a lot of other training that is useless if defending against zombies.

Well... no. An actual sniper can shoot accurately from a much greater distance than a marksman. I don't know why you're saying the other skills would be useless against zombies either. But for the sake of argument, lets say that they are.

The name of the topic is "Snipers on z-day", not "Snipers against zombies". It looks like a "pedantic" distinction until you figure out that zombies are not going to be your only enemy during and after Z day. I think this has been overlooked by plenty of posters so far.

[ZomCom]

By getting so specific about the definition of sniper, I think this discussion becomes rather esoteric in the context of a zombie apocalypse. What would you estimate the sharpshooter to military sniper ratio to be in the US? 100 to 1? 1000 to 1? 10,000 to 1? My brother is a hunter. He's a good shot with a high powered rifle, he knows how to live in the field, he understands terrain and camouflage, and he knows how to find, kill, prepare, and cook wild game. Where I grew up down South, there are thousands of guys with the same skills as my brother. It's not like there are going to be tons of military trained snipers available. It's not like their specialized skills are going to be a lot more useful than hunting skills. The best shooter I know is so good he was asked to quit competing in amateur contests. He has no sniper training, he is a Game Warden. He also has a lot of useful skills, including ridiculous target groupings. My ex-Army sniper cousin has never hunted, and will be dangerous once the booze runs out. Maybe survivors will be killing each other routinely, but I doubt that. Even if they are, how many military snipers will there be? By limiting the discussion to military trained snipers, we're talking about a very few people who may not be much more useful than a lot of people who can shoot well, and also have useful skills.

[bandits1]

...By limiting the discussion to military trained snipers, we're talking about a very few people who may not be much more useful than a lot of people who can shoot well, and also have useful skills.
We're not limiting the discussion to only military-trained snipers, we're also discussing the usefulness of marksmen, sharpshooters, hunters, and guys who are plain old good shots with any kind of firearm.

Carry on.

[JakAttak]

any civilian can be those things

[detpat]

by your definition we can consider guys who fly small planes as rotary wing pilots. It's all the same after all.


if you use a particular term then abide by the definition and don't use a term and then say "well it covers all these other things too" a hunter isn't a sniper. If you mean "good shot" or "marksman" then use the correct terminology.

[bandits1]

any civilian can be those things
I've never in my life heard of a civilian sniper(not counting the crazy president-killing type). Only military ones.

[ZomCom]

by your definition we can consider guys who fly small planes as rotary wing pilots. It's all the same after all.


if you use a particular term then abide by the definition and don't use a term and then say "well it covers all these other things too" a hunter isn't a sniper. If you mean "good shot" or "marksman" then use the correct terminology.

What difference does it make in the context of this discussion?

From Reference.com:
The term sniper is attested from 1824 in origin of the word 'sharpshooter'. The verb to snipe originated in the 1770s among soldiers in British India with the idea of "to shoot from a hidden place", in allusion to snipe hunting, where a game bird known for being extremely difficult to hunt is hunted. Those who were skilled at the hunting of this bird were thus dubbed "snipers".
During the American Civil War, the common term used in the United States for much the same function of a sniper was 'skirmisher'. A Civil War army often protected itself by using such concealed marksmen, who were deployed individually on the extremes of the moving army. Generally, such skirmishers were selected on the basis of prior proven hunting and marksmanship skills. Often these were either young soldiers with promising maneuverability and field craft, or older men with refined marksmanship and tactical skills. The term 'sniper' was not in widespread use in the United States until after the American Civil War.

In the last few decades, the term 'sniper' has been used rather loosely, especially by media in association with police precision riflemen, those responsible for assassination, any shooting from all but the shortest range in war, and any criminal equipped with a rifle in a civil context. In the Bosnian War, and for much of the Siege of Beirut, the term 'sniper' was used to refer to what were generally ill-trained soldiers who terrorized civilians, mainly by firing at them from windows and rooftops. During the Siege of Sarajevo, the main street of the city became known as "Sniper Alley".

This has rather expanded the meaning of the term. It has also given the term 'sniper' mixed connotations. Official sources often use other more positively connotative terms to describe snipers, especially for police snipers: counter-sniper, precision marksman, tactical marksman, sharpshooter, precision riflemen, and precision shooter. Some of these alternatives have been in common use for a long time; others are closer to undisguised euphemisms. The term 'sniper' can also be used metaphorically, for instance of a person who repeatedly criticizes another.
http://www.reference.com/search?q=sniper

[Tripoli]

I've been getting flak about my sniper fetish since I joined so just so we can all be adults just say what you think about them and there uses after Zombpocalypse( thats zombie apocalypse).

The skills of a sniper is 2% shooting and 98% other tasks. To use the term “sniper” and the other rants, it is clear you’ve watched way too much T.V.

[Dave Of The Dead]

The skills of a sniper is 2% shooting and 98% other tasks. To use the term “sniper” and the other rants, it is clear you’ve watched way too much T.V.

And its clear that you have read no other posts except for the first

[Tripoli]

And its clear that you have read no other posts except for the first

And your point is?:)

[Panther7]

Man i agree with most people complaining on this thread. most people who call themselves snipers have no goddamn idea what their talking about and think their god because they watch T.V. And just to make clear what everyone else said. JUST BECAUSE IT HAS A SCOPE ON IT DOES NOT MAKE IT A SNIPER'S WEAPON!!

[bandits1]

Man i agree with most people complaining on this thread. most people who call themselves snipers have no goddamn idea what their talking about and think their god because they watch T.V. And just to make clear what everyone else said. JUST BECAUSE IT HAS A SCOPE ON IT DOES NOT MAKE IT A SNIPER'S WEAPON!!
...nor does the person shooting said weapon become a qualified "sniper" just because they're a decent shot and likes to crawl around and hide and shit.

[Panther7]

and besides there are not a lot of snipers out there anyway

[Dave Of The Dead]

We've pretty much heard and gone over this plenty of times already. Yes, we know that "sniper" is the incorrect term for someone who can pick off a zed or something at long range and yes we know that many other duties and training come with the title. So that being said, these marksmen or whatever you want to call them, will be useful during z-day.

[Panther7]

yes they would, we all know that, that's not our point

[JakAttak]

what the hell is your point then so we can resolve the issue and get on with sentient discussions

[bandits1]

what the hell is your point then so we can resolve the issue and get on with sentient discussions
The point is: I, and many others, think that no one should ever use the term "sniper" unless referring to someone who graduated from sniper school and is/was officially designated and employed by some country's military as a sniper.

Especially when referring to themselves.

[stark55]

By getting so specific about the definition of sniper, I think this discussion becomes rather esoteric in the context of a zombie apocalypse. What would you estimate the sharpshooter to military sniper ratio to be in the US? 100 to 1? 1000 to 1? 10,000 to 1? My brother is a hunter. He's a good shot with a high powered rifle, he knows how to live in the field, he understands terrain and camouflage, and he knows how to find, kill, prepare, and cook wild game. Where I grew up down South, there are thousands of guys with the same skills as my brother. It's not like there are going to be tons of military trained snipers available. It's not like their specialized skills are going to be a lot more useful than hunting skills. The best shooter I know is so good he was asked to quit competing in amateur contests. He has no sniper training, he is a Game Warden. He also has a lot of useful skills, including ridiculous target groupings.

sounds like an American settler. a real man. could you shake his hand for me?

[stark55]

The point is: I, and many others, think that no one should ever use the term "sniper" unless referring to someone who graduated from sniper school and is/was officially designated and employed by some country's military as a sniper.

Especially when referring to themselves.

snipers existed before sniper school. they were only good shots. calm down and think about what a sniper is about. not what they drill in school but why they are and you will see that in comparison to a well placed bullet terminology dosnt matter that much.

[Faran Brigo]

The point is: I, and many others, think that no one should ever use the term "sniper" unless referring to someone who graduated from sniper school and is/was officially designated and employed by some country's military as a sniper.

Especially when referring to themselves.

I wouldn't go THAT far. If that someone isn't recognized as a sniper by a military but does have skills equivalent to those of a military sniper, I'd say they're snipers. The only reason why I'm against using marksmen and sniper as interchangeable is because a marksman is going to be good mostly against zombies.

A sniper however would be able to assasinate the leader of a gang of marauders, do silent recon, help set up effective ambushes, and other things that would be very useful against live hostiles, and you bet there's going to be some of those in ZPAW.

[bandits1]

I wouldn't go THAT far. If that someone isn't recognized as a sniper by a military but does have skills equivalent to those of a military sniper, I'd say they're snipers. The only reason why I'm against using marksmen and sniper as interchangeable is because a marksman is going to be good mostly against zombies.
Agreed. I only bring up the military-training thing to make clear the point that there is a big difference between being a good shot with a rifle and telling people that you're a highly-trained "sniper".

But I agree that there must be a number of highly-skilled individuals who have much of the skills of a military-trained sniper without having ever actually been a military sniper. But I'm guessing they are few-and-far-between and I don't anticipate having one avaliable to my group of survivors during a ZPAW.

[stark55]

sadly i dont have one ether. i cant even get any practice.

[DemonChild]

If they can do all that, then give them a cookie.:)

[Panther7]

what the hell is your point then so we can resolve the issue and get on with sentient discussions

my point is YES they will be useful on z-day and YES snipers are cool. BUT snipers aren't some zombie mirical cure that everyone thinks they are, you need light recon teams, enginer and disposial groups and many other things on z-day. and on the issue of people thinking they are "snipers". I was in the Army for 5 years and i met a total of 16 on my entire tour, thats it...

[Trumble0]

I'm not going to get embroiled in the Sniper vs. Marksman Definition debate, but I will say that someone who is a good shot with a rifle would be pretty useful when defending a camp/safehouse. Any zombies you can drop from farther away means less you have to worry about upclose/banging on your walls. Other than that, IDK... I'd bring a rifle if I was going in for supplies, just so you can get on the highground and maybe recon the town and take out any zombies out in the open. Before sending in a raid team with guns more suited for assault purposes, and a few shotguns for closer ranges and more effective stopping power. But yeah, as bad ass as I thought it was when playing RTS games you can't have an army composed fully of Snipers/Marksmen/people who are good with a rifle. They have their place offensively and defensively in a militia/army.

[JakAttak]

Let's just say because of a shortage of people that marksmen will be low so the best of those will be grouped as snipers

[bandits1]

Let's just say because of a shortage of people that marksmen will be low so the best of those will be grouped as snipers
Nope...they'll be grouped as marksmen.

[Dave Of The Dead]

Sharpshooters. Yet another word for people who shoot guns at long range. Okay, so we all know that snipers are specially trained and blah blah blah. So lets just drop the technicality here and carry on with how useful a sniper, marksman, sharpshooter, ect. would be in the situation of a zombie outbreak. Done yet? I hope so.

[bandits1]

Sharpshooters. Yet another word for people who shoot guns at long range. Okay, so we all know that snipers are specially trained and blah blah blah. So lets just drop the technicality here and carry on with how useful a sniper, marksman, sharpshooter, ect. would be in the situation of a zombie outbreak. Done yet? I hope so.
I have no problem with people interchanging the words sniper/marksman/sharpshooter when generally referring to someone who can reliably hit a relatively distant target with a firearm...but when someone refers to themselves as a 100% fully trained, qualified, and legit "sniper"(not mentioning names but it starts with "JakAttak") I'm going to ask for credentials.

Fair enough?

[UNDEAD FRED]

OK getting back on target, are we talking about killing zombies with a rifle with a scope on it? :lol: please correct me if I am wrong with the term scope.

[UNDEAD FRED]

Ok, heres some opinions I like to ask people

1. Cover n concealment, being that you are destroying walking cadavers that could probilly locate you even if you use camoflage, would it be better just to bang away from a safe high location? Im just going on the thought that the noise of your weapon would attract zombies to your position, and that you would be firing great amounts of ammo. They would walk out in the open for a clear target.This question doesnt apply to looters or raiders that are putting you in danger.

2. Use of a spotter, how useful would a spotter be against zombies that would most likely shamble up to your position out in the open for a clear shoot? ( no running zombies) would it be better to put a rifle in your spotters hands to kill more zombies?

3. Mental strain, This is from Dawn of the Dead 04, Andy's Tape. He said that he had about 10,000 rounds in his store. Im saying there was probilly 2000+ zombies outside his store, and in the mall parking lot. How many zombies do you think that a normal person could kill before they start to lose it. I dont care who you are but just killing zombies one after the other would get to you.

[Trumble0]

I dont care who you are but just killing zombies one after the other would get to you.

I don't think it would "get to you" I think you'd just feel bored, or like you were wasting ammo cause they weren't really attacking Andy's store, they were just kinda shuffling around outside the mall preventing an escape. On another one of your points, I would have a spotter cause alot of times unless you're a highly trained marksman and even then... you get tunnelvision when looking through your optics/scope. I wouldn't let him carry another rifle though, the point of a spotter is to defend the sniper while he shoots and prevent ambushes, so for the most part they carry an assault type load out, m-4 carbine or one of the older m-16 variants. I'd love my spotter to have an m249 SAW or a Chaingun though, just because that would be bad ass and mow down waves of zombies, even if it just cut them on half it would slow them down. then you book it to your extraction. I do agree though that the zombies would probably see you anyway if you were camoflauged since they probably smell you too.

[Gummerfan]

If the Zeds are far enough away to require Sharpshooter level skill, they're too far away to pose a threat. Shooting them will just draw more zombies, as Andy stated in his diary. You want to lay low as much as possible.
(a chaingun? hope you've got a warehouse full of ammo!) ;)

[mattifikation]

People always talk about zombies smelling you. Zombies do not have super smell. Think about it... do you have super smell?

If anything, you'll be the one smelling them since they're dead and rotting.

[Trumble0]

People always talk about zombies smelling you. Zombies do not have super smell. Think about it... do you have super smell?

If anything, you'll be the one smelling them since they're dead and rotting.

When I think of zombies, I dont think of them having Super smell, but I tend to think of them possessing the qualities of primal humans. If you really wanted to and worked on it, Im sure you could hone your sense of smell far greater than what it is now unless youve done some damage by smoking or something or if you were born or develop the condition where you lose your sense of smell (Anosmia) sorry I just watched SCRUBS yesterday and it was one of the diagnosed conditions. I mean Zombies wouldnt be able to smell you from 300 yards away, if you employed the concept of laying still completely camoflauged, I think sooner or later they'd find you when they were stumbling around you, probably by smell since the eyes can easily be tricked.

[50 cal]

Unless you have a suppressed bolt gun, playing sniper would be pretty useless. Taking the time to fully camo and make a ghillie suit then making a sniper hide would be time better suited to scavenging supplies and just avoiding the threat.

Now if you were wanting to keep the zombies thinned out in your AO or base of operations without attracting attention, a suppressed rifle being employed in the precision marksman role. You could do that from a window in your base. No need to play sniper.

[bandits1]

Unless you have a suppressed bolt gun, playing sniper would be pretty useless. Taking the time to fully camo and make a ghillie suit then making a sniper hide would be time better suited to scavenging supplies and just avoiding the threat.

Now if you were wanting to keep the zombies thinned out in your AO or base of operations without attracting attention, a suppressed rifle being employed in the precision marksman role. You could do that from a window in your base. No need to play sniper.
Agreed. No need for more than very basic camoflage - like wearing dark colored t-shirts at night, for example. Wearing a ghillie suit, face paint, and crawling around in the brush to kill undead is just ridiculous.

Why would there ever be a need for someone to camoflage themselves, crawl on their belly toward a bunch of zombies, and - from cover - expertly shoot a select few of them? Better to send about a dozen guys over with automatic weapons and just level every single one of those f*ckers...no need to sneak around and hide.

Marksmen will always be handy for taking out targets from a safe distance, but fully-trained snipers would be largely unnecessary for anything except maybe taking out armed and hostile humans.

[PuppiePusher]

I think a Military trained sniper (branch depending)would be a great advantage for any group. During travel they could scout out ahead for miles, and for long periods of time, they would be able to teach anyone a thing or to about camouflage, and lets not forget about the possibility of roving bands. A sniper could keep them pinned down for hours or maybe days, giving everyone a chance gain some distance from them. Its not the end all weapons system but heck I’d take one over a 240 gunner any day.(that’s just me though) . The reason I say branch depending is that I’ve gone through an AF form of sniper school and I’m at no caliber as an Army or Marine sniper. With there training they would slaughter me in moments.

Would A PMC school like Blackwater and such count as a “sniper” cert? Just wondering

[Jimmy]

I think a Military trained sniper (branch depending)would be a great advantage for any group. During travel they could scout out ahead for miles, and for long periods of time, they would be able to teach anyone a thing or to about camouflage, and lets not forget about the possibility of roving bands. A sniper could keep them pinned down for hours or maybe days, giving everyone a chance gain some distance from them. Its not the end all weapons system but heck I’d take one over a 240 gunner any day.(that’s just me though) . The reason I say branch depending is that I’ve gone through an AF form of sniper school and I’m at no caliber as an Army or Marine sniper. With there training they would slaughter me in moments.

Would A PMC school like Blackwater and such count as a “sniper” cert? Just wondering


Blackwater's Mercs are mostly EX-Military/Government trained people who already had their certifications before they got awarded contracts from Blackwater, cause Blackwater doesn't just hire anybody... They only hire people with mad skillz. lol So yeh, I think it would count. lol

[JakAttak]

most are former elite marines, as in the best of the best

[PuppiePusher]

Blackwater will hire just about anyone, Hell I’m an AF SP and they have offered me work at around 90K a year. But they have classes for Civ, Police, and Military. If your Military you can pay (out of pocket of course) to attend there classes. And they have an Urban sniper course too. But there are other PMC training schools out there. Most are taught by Ex-Military. Either way, I’m of subject aren’t I, even just a police trained Urban Sniper would be good to have around. My class was more of a counter sniper course and I learned a lot more about concealment, wind, and sectors of fire than I ever learned in the AF’s normal course of fire. Any one trained in any advanced marksmanship could help. What if you get Sally-smokesalot in your group, She’s never handled a firearm before. Any trained sniper could probably train her better than I could. And I’m pretty proficient with a gun. (not Carlos Hathcock mind you). I would think anyone more knowledgeable than me in anything would be someone I would like to keep around. So why not a sniper?:drinking:

[mattifikation]

The nose can be easily tricked. Last time somebody farted in your face, what else were you able to smell before the stink cleared?

Primal smell abilities... no. Zombies' sensory organs don't grow and become enhanced as they rot, they decay and become less and less useful.

[Trumble0]

The nose can be easily tricked. Last time somebody farted in your face, what else were you able to smell before the stink cleared?

Primal smell abilities... no. Zombies' sensory organs don't grow and become enhanced as they rot, they decay and become less and less useful.

This is true... IDK, zombies seem to have some sort of a 6th sense for humans though as demonstrated in film after film.

[mattifikation]

That is merely a plot device, along the same lines as zombies rising from deeply-dug graves. Zombie movies are full of these. For example, why is it that the "jerk" always gets completely eaten while the "beloved motherly figure" always gets one bite and then turns on the group?

It's because audiences demand the gratification of seeing the jerk get the most brutal death of all, while seeing the motherly figure turn on her loved ones provokes an emotional and horrific response.

In reality, the naive mother figure would probably go bat shit insane and the jerk would be the last man standing because he'd be the only one with enough survival instinct to put her down.

[Zombia planner]

Calling yourself a "sniper" when you aren't trained and designated as a sniper by the military doesn't seem to resonate well with anyone.

You can't just call yourself a sniper because you like to wear camoflage, sneak around and hide in your backyard, and shoot stuff. If you shoot well enough, I doubt anyone would object to you calling yourself a "marksman" or "sharpshooter". You should use those terms instead.

if you have to be military trained to be a sniper, who trained the military. and the definition of "snipe" in noun form is 3. a shot, usually from a hidden position, so to be a sniper you would have to shoot someone from a hidden position and just for kicks, ver form "5. to shoot at individuals as opportunity offers from a concealed or distant position: The enemy was sniping from the roofs. " and you WERE partialy right

1.A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.
2.One who shoots at other people from a concealed place

but so was he

[BioWeapon]

Who defines words?
Who defines what "Sniper" means.
I'd say it is the consensus of what it is understood to mean.
If everyone understands "sniper" to mean a good shot, then that is what it means.
The military does not define english words, however, there are certain "lingos", and if you are speaking military longo/jargon, then you are wrong, just like calling an M-1A an assault rifle is wrong.
Certainly the meaning has changed over time as well.

To me... the common usage of the word, means a "good shot" firing from a well concealed location.
Or alternately, a hunter of man.

It is worth noting the best snipers in history, learned their trade hunting animals, and often received little formal training as they were drafted/forced into war - first demonstrating their skills with a normal rifle, and being promoted during wartime to a sniper.

In this sense a skilled hunter *could* make a very good sniper.

The principle difference is the intelligence of his/her prey, and the ability of the prey to fight back.

A hunter who fails to conceal himself well enough may have to find a new target, a sniper may just end up dead.

A hunter who scores a kill must locate the kill and skin it.
A sniper must consider relocating.

A hunter can often travel to where he will wait with little worry.
An sniper must be stealthy at all times, at least on the offensive.


Likewise, one does not need to be trained by the military to be a jet pilot. One doesn't even need a license to be a pilot - you can fly ultralights in the US with no license at all.

There are also civilian air combat schools for those with money to waste - like laser tag with Extra 300's and SF-260 marchetti's and such, although that might be a bit of a stretch calling oneself a fighter pilot (as they aren't actually fighters.

Its highly likely a "civilian sniper" is a poser, who at most plays paintball/airsoft, and maybe owns some guns.

However, I would not say the definition of a sniper is strictly limited to formal military training. It is just highly likely without that training, the person is full of $h1t.

[VideoJunkie]

As far as discussing the difference between the terms "sniper" and "marksman/sharpshooter" being only semantics or not, that's the reason why this thread exists in the first place. The OP is a guy who - despite never having served in the military - insists that he's a "sniper" and we're here in this thread to discuss the merits of that self-designated title.

Not to nit pick, but if terms are so important it might be worth noting that the guy who started this thread ISN'T an OP. Of course it doesn't really matter if you want to call him an op. It's sort of like a "self-designated title", only it wasn't "self-designated". Someone else designated it. The question is does it really matter?

For what it's worth, aren't there a LOT of snipers that never served in the military? SWAT teams, big city PD's and the like all have snipers. I'm guessing the training requirements are quite a bit different than those of the armed forces. A sniper with the Chicago PD wouldn't need to be able to survive alone out in the wilderness for weeks or any of the other things that would be necessary for a special forces sniper. In law enforcement a cool head and the ability to judge a volatile situation would be as important as being able to make the important shots. I'm just saying that JakAttak's lack of military experience doesn't preclude him being a sniper.

Another poster said something to the effect that calling a marksman a sniper is like calling a medic/EMT a doctor. Something like that. Well, think about it. After the zombies have killed off damn near everyone with medical training (think about it. Where do the infected go, and who do they bite first???) after that we'll all be calling anyone with even a little medical training "Doctor" and we'll be damn glad to have 'em. The criteria for a lot of jobs is gonna change overnight, and I doubt anyone will have the time, energy or inclination to bitch about what a man calls himself. As long as he get's the job done. If I get shot or sliced open and someone can stitch me back together I'll gladly call him doctor. Or Mr. President. Or Chief Justice of the First Church of Elvis. Whatever...


If he can do the job, he can damn well call himself whatever he want's. That's how I see it anyway.

[VideoJunkie]

I have no problem with people interchanging the words sniper/marksman/sharpshooter when generally referring to someone who can reliably hit a relatively distant target with a firearm...but when someone refers to themselves as a 100% fully trained, qualified, and legit "sniper"(not mentioning names but it starts with "JakAttak") I'm going to ask for credentials.

Fair enough?

When did he do that? I've just started on this thread tonight and I've read each post up to yours. I haven't seen any such claims. Where did he refer to himself as a "100% fully trained, qualified, and legit "sniper""??? Show me where he made that claim and I'll certainly stop trying to defend him. Otherwise...If he didn't make that claim then I think you need to calm down and re-read this thread. I don't think anyone is trying to marginalize military snipers. What is your major problem here? Seriously, is there some ongoing fight I just don't know about? I'm only asking because there seems to be a lot of hostility being thrown about and it seems misplaced.

Not trying to stir things up or start anything with anyone, just offering an unbiased opinion. Feel free to ignore it.

[Hitman]

video , it wasn't just this thread. he started this thread to say how good he was at it and it got away from him quickly.

[KyleStyle]

It looks to me like this thread was made to discuss how effective snipers are on z-day, not arguing about someone calling themselves a sniper.

[VideoJunkie]

It looks to me like this thread was made to discuss how effective snipers are on z-day, not arguing about someone calling themselves a sniper.

Good point. I was off topic. Now I'm back.

I don't know how useful snipers would be in defending a fixed defensive position. I think I'd rather lure the zombies into my prepared traps, or just lure them up to a reinforced chain link fence. Then a group of men, uh I mean a group of PEOPLE could just camp out at the fenceline with .22 rifles or pistols and start thinning the herd...uh horde, you know. I mean they could be stationed at a secure area with a sturdy fence between themselves and the zombie hordes. Then just start popping head shots from a few feet away. I don't see why we'd need snipers in that role. As long as zombies are drawn to noise and are attracted to living people we should have no trouble getting them to pile up in the kill zones we prepare. I can see where being able to hit a zombie from a hundred yards or so would be useful on recon and supply missions, but you hardly need a sniper for that. Being able to pull off a head shot from a mile away is awesome, and far beyond my abilities. I just don't see it being a real advantage against zombies.

Obviously such skill would be a great asset against living opponents, such as a rival group who might be attacking us. However, I thought it was a rule here that we not discuss killing people who are still breathing. Did I get that one wrong?

[KyleStyle]

I agree that snipers are not necessary against zombies. A good barricade and some people who can get headshots are all that is needed if you are defending a fort or something like that.
If you are attacking, I also don't think snipers would be really useful because an attack would ideally be relatively quick and take out multiple zombies, not picking them off like a sniper would.
But against people (sorry if there is a rule against this like video mentioned but I do not know where said rule is) a sniper would be very useful. Kind of the idea of cutting the head off a snake. Kill the leader, and cause confusion.
Now I am a minor living in Canada so I have no experience with guns. Therefore, I could have a totally wrong idea about snipers. If so, please tell me.

[bandits1]

When did he do that? I've just started on this thread tonight and I've read each post up to yours. I haven't seen any such claims. Where did he refer to himself as a "100% fully trained, qualified, and legit "sniper""??? Show me where he made that claim and I'll certainly stop trying to defend him. Otherwise...If he didn't make that claim then I think you need to calm down and re-read this thread. I don't think anyone is trying to marginalize military snipers. What is your major problem here? Seriously, is there some ongoing fight I just don't know about? I'm only asking because there seems to be a lot of hostility being thrown about and it seems misplaced.

Not trying to stir things up or start anything with anyone, just offering an unbiased opinion. Feel free to ignore it.
Relax, man. JakAttak made claims of being a 100% legit and qualified "sniper" in a couple of other older threads and got called out on it by some members, which eventually lead to his creation of this one. He, at one point, was talking about snipers in every third post which irritated a few people and we all went back-and-forth about it for a little bit.

[bandits1]

Not to nit pick, but if terms are so important it might be worth noting that the guy who started this thread ISN'T an OP. Of course it doesn't really matter if you want to call him an op. It's sort of like a "self-designated title", only it wasn't "self-designated". Someone else designated it. The question is does it really matter?
"OP" = "original poster" or creator of a thread, which ZakAttak is of this one.

[VideoJunkie]

Off topic again, so I'll keep it short. I didn't know about the history behind this thread. Just looked to me like...well, I guess it's pretty clear what I thought. Sorry, didn't mean to get into the middle of something which pretty obviously didn't involve me at all. As far as the "OP" thing, I saw another post that said that was short for Operator. Oh well, live and learn. No hard feelings, I hope.

As far as the rule about the discussion of killing people, I'm not sure. I do know that Darkness has mentioned something like that a few times. Including this post where she locked a thread that discussed killing people.


Old 09-25-2008, 11:07 PM
Darkness's Avatar
Darkness Darkness is offline
Angry Princess, Matriarch of Chaos and Destruction

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Fifth Rock From The Sun
Posts: 6,858
Default Re: Revenge
"This Forum Does NOT Promote the Killing Of Humans."


I haven't seen a list of rules that directly prohibits such discussion, but that comment and the fact that she also locked that thread made me think that such a prohibition existed.

Darkness, if you're out there, how 'bout a little guidance. By the way, if there is some FAQ that we were all supposed to read that answers this question...uh...my dog ate it!:doh:
__________________

[Darkness]

"VideoJunkie is right. We do NOT talk about killing anything but Zombies and the occasional Animal. We do not discuss the killing of fellow human beings. Thank you."

[Boomstick Buddy]

Hey Darkness a question if I may, if we say recommend a weapon for repelling raiders I.E. "A *insert weapon here* would be good for fortress defense, if bandits turned up"
Dose that come under the, killing humans thing?
Belive me, I fully agree with the rules in place, especially with what sometimes happens in schools etc (like what got UDS&D closed last time) just wanted to clear things up.

[bandits1]

Off topic again, so I'll keep it short. I didn't know about the history behind this thread. Just looked to me like...well, I guess it's pretty clear what I thought. Sorry, didn't mean to get into the middle of something which pretty obviously didn't involve me at all. As far as the "OP" thing, I saw another post that said that was short for Operator. Oh well, live and learn. No hard feelings, I hope.
Nah, of course it's cool, man.

But you made some good points in your other post. Whether or not a guy is a legit "sniper", "marksman", "sharpshooter", or whatever - being able to consistantly hit a target from 100+ yards out could come in mighty handy. Perhaps not 100% necessary, but I'm sure it would be advantageous to have a great-shooter on hand in some situations.

[VideoJunkie]

If I'm raiding a building for supplies, say a large warehouse or something, it would sure be nice to have someone nearby that could shoot that well. Set him up with a spotter and someone to watch his back and let him keep the area clear. That way those of us in the building don't have to worry about being able to get out again. Wouldn't it just suck to be in some large warehouse loading up on supplies and then find out that the way back to your transportation was now packed with zeds? I've never fired a rifle before, but I'm gonna start correcting that oversight next week. I've always been quite happy with my handguns, but some of the recent posts have convinced me that developing some skill with a rifle would be a good idea.

[Bob]

Cough Cough
Now who do you know that might fit that bill?

[VideoJunkie]

Cough Cough
Now who do you know that might fit that bill?

You volunteering? Keep in mind that I still haven't seen you with a rifle. I was counting on you being in the damn building with me, along with a couple of glocks! If we can make it to the range this week, WITH a rifle, then I might consider a change in the lineup! If you're outside with a rifle, then who's going into the building with me? And don't even thing about mentioning the chainsaw freak! Not gonna happen! You know, I can't think of anyone else around here I'd trust in that situation. Ed can't shoot, and Joe would just :poo: himself! We need more bodies!

[Bob]

Unless my eyes fail me AGAIN I am better with a rifle than a pistol.

Good point though we could train Matt to use the M1A.

You are going to need me on the entry team.

[VideoJunkie]

I think we should ask homolite to join our team. If we have to raid a building in a badly overrun area, he'll be as valuable as he is annoying! We get him to run around in the parking lot in front. The noise from his chainsaw will draw all the zeds in the nearby area to feed on him. While they're eating him, we'll sneak in the back. No problems! I wonder if he has any brothers or cousins or nephews (in his family, a guy could be all three) with similar tendencies? We could use the same approach as often as his genepool lasts. Could save a lot of lives that way. Just a thought.

[Bob]

Works for me.
He has a Goth Chick Cousin.

[mattifikation]

What, you want his sloppy seconds?

[Darkness]

"THAT'S QUITE ENOUGH!!"


"This is NOT A SEX SITE!!!!! Stop with all the personal slandering and get back on topic...........NOW!!!!!......... Or I'm comming back with the tranquillizer gun AND the pad locks!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Bob]

I know thats why my slurs are tasteful if a bit obvious.

[VideoJunkie]

Quia peccavi nimis cogitatione verbo: mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!


Even in dead languages, I wax poetic!

[Bob]

Judica me, Deus, et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta: ab homine iniquo et doloso erue me or Zombie

[Darkness]

"And please speak English Only. Its rude to post in a language most of us can't understand." :naughty:

[Bob]

Judica me, Deus, et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta: ab homine iniquo et doloso erue me or Zombie


Judge me, O God, and distinguish my cause from the nation that is not holy; deliver me from the unjust and deceitful man or Zombie

[Darkness]

"Thank you." :)


"Now can we PLEASE get back on topic?" :x

[mattifikation]

On topic: Snipers might be useful for picking off "undead" idiots who are running around making too much noise with their... electric drills.. and bandsaws... and jackhammers... and hedgeclippers... and other such power tools...

[Undead Ryan]

On topic: Snipers might be useful for picking off "undead" idiots who are running around making too much noise with their... electric drills.. and bandsaws... and jackhammers... and hedgeclippers... and other such power tools...Well that all depends on what type of zombies they are. I assume you mean they are smarter than the average zombie, like the ones from Land of the Dead.

[DBCooper]

"Thank you." :)


"Now can we PLEASE get back on topic?" :x

Darkness, I am relatively sure you knew this was Latin. The odds are that neither one of the two can “speak” or “translate” Latin without the internet.

Like most people a few “phrases” makes one sound learned but in this case the two are just quoting something they heard or read once. No offence guys, but lets face it, a linguist has problems with the “Dead Language”.

[Undead Ryan]

Dead Languages are hard to pick up lol

[Darkness]

"This is NOT on topic." :-(

[VideoJunkie]

Quia peccavi nimis cogitatione verbo: mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!


Even in dead languages, I wax poetic!


I have sinned excessively in my thoughts and words: my fault, my most grievous fault!


In other words - Sorry, my bad! See, it sounded better when I did it in latin. Anyway, sorry for the trash talk earlier. Yes, I was justifiably (IMO) annoyed, but I suppose the whole genealogy thing went a little to far.

[Darkness]

"Thank you." :hug:

[VideoJunkie]

You're welcome.


On topic, I've really had a hard time trying to find a real justification for the role of "Sniper" against the zeds. In other ZPAW scenarios, which we won't discuss on this forum, I could absolutely see how useful they'd be, but NOT against zack. Then I suddenly thought about something I generally refuse to think about. See, normally I'm a shambler guy. I think about zombies, and I'm thinking about shamblers. You know, slow moving and stupid. Just the way I like 'em! Sure they'll follow you for days or longer without resting or giving up, but they're just walking! No problem once you adapt to the situation. But now I started thinking about the fast moving zombies of 28 days/weeks and the fast moving and even thinking zombies of DotD (2008). (Please, no arguments about rage virus doesn't mean zombie. This isn't that thread!) In terms of fast walking and even running zombies, snipers take on a whole new significance. Those fast moving and fence climbing zombies are gonna play holy hell with my plans for mass zombie extermination. How the hell are you supposed to walk the fenceline calmly pumping .22's into zacks dome, when he doesn't just stand there pushing at the fence. If a few hundred zeds start CLIMBING my fences, well that's just gonna SUCK!!! In such a situation, being able to make the long distance shots is gonna be much more important, even vital! If the damn things can run and climb, I'm gonna feel a lot less secure with just a couple of 9mm handguns! Damn! Now I've gotta start thinking again!

[bandits1]

On topic: Snipers might be useful for picking off "undead" idiots who are running around making too much noise with their... electric drills.. and bandsaws... and jackhammers... and hedgeclippers... and other such power tools...
L...O...L.


http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/2783/l10942860uh8.jpg
^^^Homelite Leafblower.

[Bob]

DBCooper

Well DUH!

You must be one of those people who believe in "keeping it real".
By your reasoning we should not use famous quotes either.
Here is famous quote just for you
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."
This particular quote has been attributed to everyone from Mark Twain to Benjamin Franklin, I have even seen it attributed to Abraham Lincoln.
By your reasoning we should ignore everything we read or hear.
I knew there was a general dumbing down in this country but did not realize to what extent it had progressed.

By your standards we should limit our vocabulary so no one thinks we are "trying to appear learned". Perhaps if you had a different attitude your most repeated phrase at work would not be "do you want fries with that".
Read a book, learn some big words and snappy quotes, impress your boss with how "learned" you are, he might consider you for greater things.
Perhaps some day you can be head fry cook "down to da mickey d".

Perhaps I need a system for my posts.
I already have to say "Knock Knock" so the masses can identify humor.
Perhaps I need to start saying "Think Think" when I say something above a third grade level or in your case even lower...


Sorry for any inconsistencies but I don't have time to proof read this, I must get ready for my job as a network administrator, something I earned by appearing "learned" as I am not. I have only a high school education and what I "learned" by reading books.

[Bob]

Oh yea
Have a nice day...

[DBCooper]

I think the appropriate quote here is, “F*** YOU, BOB!” I am sure you hear that quote many times a day. I did nothing to receive your rant so "shut the hell up!" Another quote for ya, A$$hole!

[hippiedude785]

if the case was that you were on top of a building or a heavy fortified place then yes, a sniper woulf be useful...but i would keep an automatic (m4 carbine, ak47, etc. becase in case they break into sed place if you only had a sniper, you would be dead...:lol:

[Bob]

"Sons of the Hounds, come and eat Flesh"
Clan Cameron


You might compare me to a dog I once had--a rescue dog who had spent most of his life banished to the yard by his previous owner. I got him just before a divorce and for a while he was my only friend. Later in life, he was an old Doberman who spent most of his time on the porch in the shade. From there, he would quietly watch the Chihuahua pack next door bark and harass everyone who walked by. Sometimes he would bark at the mailman, but on most days would just lazily look up at him and drift back to sleep.

But he only extended his live and let live attitude as far as it was extended to him. Set one foot on the porch steps, and he was instantly on high alert, with no visible trace of the old, lazy dog that had been there seconds before. Start speaking loudly or adopt an aggressive tone with me, and he would bare his teeth and growl. Throw a rock at him and you better be ready to run, whether you hit him or not. Poke him with a stick you'd find out first hand that age does nothing to those sharp teeth and powerful jaws. The Chihuahuas ganged up on him once, creating quite a commotion and leaving a gruesome aftermath. He once went toe to toe with a Great Dane and came out unscathed, but the vet visit to patch up the Dane's wounds took a sizable bite out of my wallet.

I post a good bit in these forums and don't expect everyone to agree with what I have to say--everyone has the right to be wrong. And I'm generally nice to you if you're nice to me. Just be aware that if you poke the old dog with a stick, he's going to bite you.

[Bob]

Something I have been considering for long range shooting is handguns chambered in rifle calibers with scopes etc. Tactically speaking this would not be the way to go.
Especially with the single shot pistols like a Thompson Contender.
However it is an option.

22 hornet one of the calibers generally used in a contender by silhouette shooters, is available in a revolver the Taurus Raging Hornet.
This round has no appreciable drop out to 100 yards.
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4729/1000529281lpf2.jpg


In the remake of Dawn of the Dead.
I have wondered why the guy in the gun shop did not spend his days "thinning the herd". He should have had thousands of rounds of ammunition on hand and while he would not have been able to totally remove the threat he might have been able to reduce it.
10,000 round of 22lr fired from a rifle.
Assuming a 25% ratio of failed shots due to shot placement and dud ammunition equals 7,500 dead zombies. As the ones close enough for the lowly 22 to be effective were dealt with by simply firing a few shots from a big bore magnum pistol he could have summoned a whole new crop. He proved he was more than capable of the long range shots by the game he was playing with the Cop.

Eventually he would have had a wall of bodies.
Could he have come out behind that wall and accomplished anything?

[VideoJunkie]

if the case was that you were on top of a building or a heavy fortified place then yes, a sniper would be useful...but i would keep an automatic (m4 carbine, ak47, etc. becase in case they break into said place if you only had a sniper, you would be dead...:lol:

Exactly! I'd want at least a couple of 9mm's with high cap mags. I'd prefer to also have an AK on hand. Either the 47 or the 74. Honestly, the best situation would be for me to have the pistols and the AK74, and just be there to watch the snipers back. I've got no experience with making long range shots, so I'd rather leave that to someone who could make 'em count. Of course the sniper or marksman or long-range shooter dude or whatever the hell we're supposed to call him would also have at least a side arm. That sniper rifle won't be worth much in the stairwell when we're bugging out.

[VideoJunkie]

Darkness, I am relatively sure you knew this was Latin. The odds are that neither one of the two can “speak” or “translate” Latin without the internet.

Like most people a few “phrases” makes one sound learned but in this case the two are just quoting something they heard or read once. No offence guys, but lets face it, a linguist has problems with the “Dead Language”.


While it's true that I don't speak latin, I am "learned" enough to know what I want to say and to pull it off quite nicely. (IMO) Sure I checked the spelling on the first few words, but I'm a survivor of a Catholic grade school. Between the nuns and the priests and mass twice a week, you pick up a few words here and there. My point is that I don't have to use Latin to try and sound "learned", I'm already convinced that I'm smarter than almost everyone else, and I'm conceited and self centered enough that I don't care if everyone else realizes it! Sounds a little messed up, doesn't it? Well, it works for me...deal with it. As far as the "no offense" at the end of your post....none taken. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and you weren't far off, anyway.

Oh, you're also right about Bob being used to, how did you put it?

I think the appropriate quote here is, “F*** YOU, BOB!” I am sure you hear that quote many times a day. I did nothing to receive your rant so "shut the hell up!" Another quote for ya, A$$hole!

Trust me, he hears it occasionally. He'd probably hear it more often, except that he's an awfully large guy, and he's always armed. Funny how those sort things seem to temper peoples tendencies toward caustic language! Your post did seem a little insulting, and Bob did take offense. Of course, it was late at night when he read your post, and that might have increased the chances that he'd be offended. Oh well, the two of you have yelled (typed) at each other now, and I hope that can be the end of it. If anything, he probably appreciated the directness of your reply. LOL! If you'll accept a little advice, though, the next time someone post something that indicates you might have a lack of IQ or the ability to reason, don't just blast them like that. Take a few minutes to really get into his head and mess with him. Just a suggestion, and honestly I did enjoy your post.

Personally, as I said, I wasn't angry about anything. Hell, I just recently got into a stupid argument with some people in this very thread. I didn't have all the facts when I jumped into an argument that didn't involve me even indirectly. I misunderstood some of what was going on and ended up making an ass of myself as a result. Bandits1 was decent enough to explain the situation, and to accept my apology, without making a big deal of it. I figure I'd have to be a complete ASS to follow that up by getting pissed off at someone 2 pages later in the same thread, for a comment that I'm not at all sure was meant to be malicious. So, seriously, no hard feelings.


By the way, the reasonable manner in which I've responded here should in no way be taken as an admission of any fear that you might think I have regarding a certain moderator and her tendency toward capricious use of tranquilizer darts. I'm a grown man and refuse to be bullied by trank gun wielding amazons!!! uh...you don't have to tell her I said that...

[Bob]

I had my say and he had his.
I'm kool, just leave the rocks in the driveway and all is well.


The more I think about "sniping" with a handgun the more I convince myself it's not really a good idea.

That being said I have my eye on a certain Thompson Encore chambered in .308
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6479/pix724647593qk7.jpg

While most any .308 rifle would be easier to shoot than this I think it looks very cool.

[Darkness]

By the way, the reasonable manner in which I've responded here should in no way be taken as an admission of any fear that you might think I have regarding a certain moderator and her tendency toward capricious use of tranquilizer darts. I'm a grown man and refuse to be bullied by trank gun wielding amazons!!! uh...you don't have to tell her I said that...

"Too late. I can read things for myself, thank you. And you might want to re-think that one. That tranquillizer gun can also be a prelude to a ban." :evil:

[DBCooper]

Using such a short barrel with a rifle cartridge doesn’t make good sense. The short barrel doesn’t allow enough pressure to build and propel the bullet efficiently down range. You end up with a slower bullet and the bullet will be less stable in flight. There are many more reasons but I am not so long winded. Sniping has a place on Z day but it isn’t like most people think.

I was over the above rant about ten seconds after my response post.

What does it matter how big Bob is and what does it matter that he packs heat? Anyway, this question doesn’t need a response.

Dr. Frost von Ramper . Now that’s funny!

[VideoJunkie]

"Too late. I can read things for myself, thank you. And you might want to re-think that one. That tranquillizer gun can also be a prelude to a ban." :evil:

uh...Oh, Darkness! Hi! ...you didn't think I meant YOU, did you? No way! I meant a different moderator with uh, entirely different trank guns! Yeah, that's it...I meant someone else. Yeah, it was an entirely different mod that scared the pants off...uh, I mean that I WASN'T afraid of. Yeah, that's it! And anyway, I meant it in a nice way.
...uh....Bob made me do it!

[Darkness]

uh...Oh, Darkness! Hi! ...you didn't think I meant YOU, did you? No way! I meant a different moderator with uh, entirely different trank guns! Yeah, that's it...I meant someone else. Yeah, it was an entirely different mod that scared the pants off...uh, I mean that I WASN'T afraid of. Yeah, that's it! And anyway, I meant it in a nice way.
...uh....Bob made me do it!

*Darkness falls over laughing.* :lol:





"I think Snipers would be good for stuff like picking off that zombie who is about to figure out how to open the door, or light that tank of gas, stuff like that." :)

[Bob]

I dunno about the barrel length.
I agree that the shorter barrels will cause increased muzzle blast and a lower muzzle velocity but probably higher than you might think. I doubt it would appreciably affect the stability of the bullet withing ranges attainable with a handgun. Back when I had a contender I did not have a chronograph. If I get that Encore I will compare the 10' velocity it and my M1A. The real results will probably be somewhere in between our expectations.

Surprise, I agree Zed sniping is not going to be like shooting a piece of paper.
I am long winded so, shamblers do not stand still, their heads would bob and jerk unpredictably. This would make a long range head shot tough to say the least.

So you know I am von Ramper now.
It really was not funny when I played.
You would not have wanted to face Video Junkie and I on the field.
That is not a threat nor is it a joke, we were serious about the game.
Your resume implies you would have wiped up the forest floor with us but...

As for him mentioning my stature and hardware status, hell it doesn't mean a thing.
On the internet everyone is ten feet tall, a master class sniper, a martial artist beyond compare, and richer than Bill Gates.
His statement was just part of the set up for a humorous statement.
It was not meant to be intimidating, did you mistakenly take it that way?

Packs heat?
Now that is funny, sounds like I have a hand warmer in my pocket.

Yes, Yes to all of you I am Dr. Frost von Ramper!
I was a hard core woodsballer until I got pneumonia and did not fully recover.
I have arthritis in my hands and often have to use a shooting glove.
My eyes are failing and I wear reading glasses.
I practice point shooting because I can't see the sights anymore.
I occasionally compete in Hunter Pistol silhouette with a ruger 22 with a red dot sight.
My hands are 2XL and I have trouble finding gloves that fit.
I like grown women who know who they are.


Well you made the old dog bark, was that your goal?
I have one question, is the hatchet in the ground?

[Darkness]

I have one question, is the hatchet in the ground?

"Yes, and its buried under a pile of cement. Time to move on now." :lol:

[DBCooper]

Like I said, I was over the above rant about ten seconds after my response post. Life is too short.

Pack heat - I am old school at heart and love the language of yesterday.

With more muzzle blast there is a loss of power, range, and accuracy.

[Bob]

Compared to a full length rifle I won't argue.
It is going to be interesting to see.
I don't know if I am going to wind up with the contender or not.
Depends on whether the price winds up right.

But there are lots of contender and encore owners out there who would probably argue the point with you.
Not having one currently all I can do is conjecture so I won't.

The big bore silhouette shooters shoot at rams at 200 yards.
Many people would have trouble hitting at that range with a rifle.
http://www.ihmsa.org/2007%20Rules%20Revised_files/2007%20Rules%20Revised.htm

So while I won't argue there is some loss I don't think it is a much as one might think.
I have personally knocked down rams at 100 yards with a 22 pistol.
Yes I sacrificed some velocity but there was still plenty left.

Next time I go to the outdoor range I will do some chrono testing with a rifle and compare it to what I get with the pistols.

I suspect what we are going to find is the difference is most apparent with large capacity cases loaded with slow burning powder. Back in the day 30-30 loaded for rifle was brutal to shoot out of a 10" contender barrel. 223 was pleasant and the 35 Remington was a big long push but wasn't bad especially when loaded specifically for the contender.

Bottom line, I partially agree.
If it's sniping you want to do get a rifle.

[DBCooper]

Bob,
I not sure if we are agreeing or not. Some of the “real’ shooter should be able to verify this post.

Disclaimer – (We all know there are people on this site who talk $hit about their vast knowledge of weapons and ballistics but don’t even own a gun. I happen to own a gun, or two, or three, or ?.)

There are several factors to an accurate sniper rifle. One of these factors is barrel length. Before I go any farther, this information will be based on estimated numbers and I’ll use .22lr as my example. First of all we have to have a common denominator, let’s call this ammunition. All things being equal Ammunition-X is a consistent brand of quality and reliability. Now firing this round from a short barrel pistol (2 or 3 inch) the velocity of the bullet will travel 1,000 feet per second. Same ammunition from a 10” barrel the velocity is now 1,100 fps, from an 18” barrel you’ll get 1,250 fps and then from a 22” barrel we are talking 1,350 fps or better. (All estimated – remember?)

Now there is a point of diminished return. Same Ammunition-X from a 30” barrel we are talking 1,100 fps. As you see, velocity is lost with the longest barrel and with an even longer barrel the velocity will be slower and slower. This is caused by chamber pressure (expanding gasses maximizing in an empty space), friction (bullets catching lans and groves), and inner diameter of the barrel (not all barrels are created equal)

So you pull out your pistol and shoot a zombie in the head, will he care if the velocity 1,000 or 1,350 fps? No, hopefully it won’t matter and the zombie is out of commission. However, if you magnify the velocities to larger cartridges and you are talking longer ranges the velocity will affect accuracy and efficiency. All that “MUZZLEBLAST” is escaping gasses that should go to propelling the bullet down range.

Well, I think I am writing too much so I better stop. I hope point is made.

[Bob]

I think we are a page or so apart.

Here is another comparison

A M2 Browning Machine gun has a 42 inch barrel.
A Barrett Model 82A1 has a maximum barrel length of 29 inches.

By your reasoning the Barrett would have more muzzle blast and be less accurate than the M2.

Never having shot either one I am once again forced to speak hypothetically.
Muzzle blast? Probably more, but it is controlled by a muzzle break.
Accuracy? No way an M2 is more accurate even though it has a longer barrel.

****SNIP*****The long effective range, over 1500 m with a record shot of 2500 m, along with high energy and availability of highly effective ammunition such as API and Raufoss Mk 211, allows for effective operations against targets like radar cabins, trucks, parked aircraft and so on. The M82 can also be used to defeat human targets from standoff range or when targets are behind cover.****Snip****

(not bad for a shorter barrel huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82 (snipped from here)

Betcha a cookie I have more guns than you...

[DBCooper]

Bob,
Like I said in my post, “There are several factors to an accurate sniper rifle”. You are comparing apples to oranges, but you knew this when you replied. The M2 Browning Machine gun and its accuracy can not be compared to the Barrett M 82A1. The functions, design, and purpose of the two weapons are worlds apart, again you knew this too.

I see you found no flaws in the velocity comparisons and barrel lengths that I mentioned. That is good as most people cannot comprehend this fact.

I don’t think you got my point, so here it is. Every rifle or pistol cartridge has a SWEET combination that matches the weapon it is intended to be fired from.

I’ll give you a new comparison. I also shoot blackpowder weapons, a 50 cal. I use a .490 ball and a 10,000s patch and 50 grains of FFF GOEX. At 50 yards point of aim is point of impact. Now if I change to a .495 ball use the same patch and powder, I hit 6 inches high and left. Not only that but my grouping goes from under an inch to 2 ½ inches (from a rest). If I go back to my original ball and patch and add 70 grains of powder my group is high and right and over 3 1/2 inches. Here is the heart of long-range shooting, develop the right load for the weapon you are shooting.

As you also know, the cartridge that is fired out of the M2 is NOT the same as what is fire from the M 82. Sure they are interchangeable in the weapons but cartridges are not the same, different projectile, powder, primer, and accuracy will suffer if standard belt ammunition is fired from the m 82A1.

I could go on and on about lans & groves, bore inter-diameter, twist, barrel length, round velocity, bullet diameter, powder burn rates, bullet seat, head spacing, cold –v- warm barrels, on and on and on and on.

As far as the # of guns? Send the cookie, I like snicker doodles. NOWAY you and JV have more than I do!

I forgot to add, the M-2 is designed to fire in what is called a “Cone of Fire”, not pinpoint accuracy. I am sure you knew this too. (Did I pass your test?)

By the way, I've fired both the M-2 and M 82.

[stonyman65]

When it comes to the Military, for the most part Snipers are hated. Regular soldiers and Marines usually hate snipers because of what they are trained to do. go out alone and kill. what makes soldiers so noble is that they rely on teamwork and a group mentality. a 2 man sniping team or lone sniper are mainly despised.

The only reason to have snipers on Z Day (if there are any) would be to fortify a position and provide overwatch. Maybe if some raiders wanted to ambush you they might use a "sniper"

then again, "Sniper" is a relative term. Marksman would be more fitting.

saying that you are a "Sniper" without actually attending Sniper school at Fort Benning (Army) or MCB Quantico (Marine Corps) and graduating is like saying that you where a Green Beret or a SEAL just because you joined the Army or Navy.

In all realism, being a Sniper is a lonely job and is no where near as glorious as depicted in TV and movies. My grandfather was a sniper in the 9th Infantry Division during Korea and when I asked him about what he did and what he saw he simply said "I don't want to talk about it, and I never will"

[Bob]

Yes

I like your comparison using that smokepole.
I lost all interest in black powder when residue from another shooter screwed up the finish on a pistol I had.

I may have missed your point as you may not have entirely gotten mine.

I agree there is a "best" load for every gun.
That is why it takes so long to work up a hand load.
I have loads that are inaccurate and a total waste of time and I have some that punch one hole at 25 yards.

I believe we can both come up with examples of what we were trying to say.
These two would prove the muzzle blast part of your theory but other than using different barrel lengths on a contender with otherwise identical barrels I don't know of any other way to get an apples to apples comparison.

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/8053/163504thumbsc1.jpg VS http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/173/170299thumbym0.jpg

I have really kind of lost track of what my original point was I think it was that rifle calibers in a 14" pistol are not unstable and inaccurate.

Next time you are the mall tell the girl to give you a cookie and send me the bill.

[DBCooper]

Kind words? Thank you. I hope you liked my list. I do need to update my newest toys but I just have other things that need to be done. Best wishes!

[Bob]

The rest of you best take heed.
Just because I can participate in a well thought out discussion does not make me any less a world class azzhole!

[VideoJunkie]

When it comes to the Military, for the most part Snipers are hated. Regular soldiers and Marines usually hate snipers because of what they are trained to do. go out alone and kill. what makes soldiers so noble is that they rely on teamwork and a group mentality

I can't speak to the accuracy of your statement about the lack of esteem in which snipers are held. But as far as the source of a soldiers nobility, I disagree. The nobility of a soldier is a function of his character and his behavior. While teamwork and group mentality are useful, they are by no means a measure of nobility. If that were the basis for such judgments, your average bee hive would rank higher in nobility than the soldiers who stormed the beaches of Normandy. As far as the sniper being hated based on what they are trained to do? That's just ludicrous! I'm not trying to insult you. Remember, I already admitted that I didn't have the facts to dispute that snipers are hated. I really don't know. My argument is with the ideology behind such hatred. Snipers are trained to do the same thing as every other real soldier. KILL THE ENEMY!! PERIOD! Everything else is either a bonus or just window dressing. The difference is in the methodology employed to kill the enemy. Whether it's riflemen shooting from cover, a pilot firing a missle from a mile away, a naval gunner on a Battleship firing from 15 miles out to sea, or a sniper hidden on a hillside putting a 50. cal through the head of an enemy general, the goal is pretty much the same. Somebody is supposed to die, and you try to make sure it's not you.

The soldiers nobility comes from one thing, and it's not just true of soldiers. The same can be said of fire fighters and policemen. The willingness to place his ass on the line to protect the life and freedom of strangers. That's what I call noble! Others have found more poetic ways of stating that basic truth. Well, I'm no poet. The simple language I've used doesn't reduce the truth of what I just said. Think about it. Anyone who'd willing to risk his life to save mine, despite having never met me? I've got to call that man noble. I don't care if he's part of a team or a solo act. I'd be grateful and impressed as hell either way!



The only reason to have snipers on Z Day (if there are any) would be to fortify a position and provide overwatch. Maybe if some raiders wanted to ambush you they might use a "sniper"

I agree. The normal role of a sniper would seem unneeded against zombies. Not alot of call for that kind of talent against the mindless dead. Against outlaws and bandits, sure, but that's not something we're supposed to discuss here.


then again, "Sniper" is a relative term. Marksman would be more fitting.

Yes, I agree, but say that softly...that kind of comment stirs up a lot of...emotional reactions around here.

saying that you are a "Sniper" without actually attending Sniper school at Fort Benning (Army) or MCB Quantico (Marine Corps) and graduating is like saying that you where a Green Beret or a SEAL just because you joined the Army or Navy.


I'm torn here. I see your point, and you're not wrong. I see a little room for discussion on that point, however. There were snipers before either of the schools you mentioned existed. Sniper is a general term, as opposed to the very specific titles of Green Beret or Navy Seal. See what I mean. These aren't arguments that I originated. This point was discussed at some length earlier in this thread. In a ZPAW scenario, we might find a need for someone to act as a sniper. You know, operating from concealment and firing at selected targets from very long distances. That sort of thing. If such a need were found to exist, but we had no official snipers trained at the approved schools, what would we do? Obviously, we'd get whoever we had that came closest to having the skill set we needed, and give them the job. In that situation, would you object to calling that person a sniper? It's one of those "looks and quacks like a duck" things. I'm calling it a duck. Maybe that's just me.


My grandfather was a sniper in the 9th Infantry Division during Korea and when I asked him about what he did and what he saw he simply said "I don't want to talk about it, and I never will"


Your grandfather has my respect and gratitude. Seriously, I've got both in abundance for any man who's ever risked his life to protect this country. The fact that what he did in the war made him uncomfortable enough that even years later he didn't like to talk about it seems to prove that what he did wasn't easy. He still did his duty, and did what he had to for this country and to protect our way of life and the freedoms that we enjoy. I'd have to disagree with anyone who said your grandfather wasn't noble or a hero, just because he operated outside the main group.


I hope nothing I'm saying here comes across as offensive or needlessly argumentative. That's not the way I meant it. Well, I do like to argue things out, but not with any real hostility. If it does seem like I'm being an ass, please ignore that and accept that I didn't mean it that way.

[Hitman]

Kind words? Thank you. I hope you liked my list. I do need to update my newest toys but I just have other things that need to be done. Best wishes!

I wish I could play , I'd probly loose as I only use 28 some odd calibers.

I do know that a 12ga shotgun has used up all its driving forces in 14" (according to rem) .

I have shot a few rifle caliber handguns and none were slouches in the accuracy or power dept. and if true accuracy is the main goal then you should be reloading any way and can match the load to the barrel length (or pretty close) . then again a round designed for a handgun for long range and power would be the best pick. I also know that 7" barreled AR's will go through IIIA no problem , and a zombies head is nowhere near that tough.

don't forget muzzle blast can be contained (and should be) with a good quality silencer .

I hunt with handguns some and I feel that a sniper with a good long range handgun and a good carbine (or subgun) could possibly be a better combo than a full size long range rifle. most of the time it will be over watch and very little shooting needed for the zed hunter on the high ground . a good pair of binos would be the best thing .

[Gummerfan]

In the remake of Dawn of the Dead.
I have wondered why the guy in the gun shop did not spend his days "thinning the herd". He should have had thousands of rounds of ammunition on hand and while he would not have been able to totally remove the threat he might have been able to reduce it.
10,000 round of 22lr fired from a rifle.
Assuming a 25% ratio of failed shots due to shot placement and dud ammunition equals 7,500 dead zombies. As the ones close enough for the lowly 22 to be effective were dealt with by simply firing a few shots from a big bore magnum pistol he could have summoned a whole new crop. He proved he was more than capable of the long range shots by the game he was playing with the Cop.

Eventually he would have had a wall of bodies.
Could he have come out behind that wall and accomplished anything?

If you watch the "Andy's Diary" feature on the DVD, Andy talks about the futility of the action. Every time he dropped some zeds, even more showed up to take their place. Presumably drawn by the sound of the gunfire or the noise of the other zeds. He concluded that just wasn't a viable option.
If he just had a limited number of zeds to deal with, it would have been different, but if you're attracting every zombie for miles around with each shot, it's pretty pointless.

[VideoJunkie]

If you watch the "Andy's Diary" feature on the DVD, Andy talks about the futility of the action. Every time he dropped some zeds, even more showed up to take their place. Presumably drawn by the sound of the gunfire or the noise of the other zeds. He concluded that just wasn't a viable option.
If he just had a limited number of zeds to deal with, it would have been different, but if you're attracting every zombie for miles around with each shot, it's pretty pointless.


First, killing zeds should be it's own reward. One less of them is a good result. Period! As for drawing in more of the zombies from the surrounding area... Looked to me like that was happening anyway. That crowd just kept growing. Sure each shot would have drawn more zeds...at the beginning. What Andy failed to consider was that a diminishing effect rule would have worked in his favor. As each shot drew in more of the local zombies, there would have been fewer local zombies to hear the next shot. It's not like the zombies that moved to the mall were automatically replaced by some FedEx of the dead! The first shot might have drawn a couple of hundred more zombies. Sure, that would suck. But wait! Andy did take that shot! He also took the next shot that only drew in about a hundred zombies. And the third and fourth and so on. Each of the shots we saw him take as part of his little challenge game would have drawn in fewer and fewer zombies, until the area in earshot of the mall was clear. Sure, wandering zeds might have still added to the crowd occasionally, but not in nearly large enough numbers to make up for the huge numbers he was able to shoot. This ladies and gentlemen is a PLOT HOLE! He should have been dropping every zed he could see! It might have made the difference.

[Bob]

I have shot a few rifle caliber handguns and none were slouches in the accuracy or power dept. and if true accuracy is the main goal then you should be reloading any way and can match the load to the barrel length (or pretty close)

I hunt with handguns some and I feel that a sniper with a good long range handgun and a good carbine (or subgun) could possibly be a better combo than a full size long range rifle. most of the time it will be over watch and very little shooting needed for the zed hunter on the high ground . a good pair of binos would be the best thing .


A voice of reason. :)
Just use a different powder to get a faster burn rate if you are using a shorter barrel. I was thinking in terms of military ball since a .308 Encore started the discussion thats why I didn't throw handloading into the mix.
Go Blue!

[Bob]

Would shooting thousands have built a wall of bodies blocking them from direct access to his shop or would he have wound up with a ramp giving them access to windows above street level?

[VideoJunkie]

Would shooting thousands have built a wall of bodies blocking them from direct access to his shop or would he have wound up with a ramp giving them access to windows above street level?

Depends on where he shot them. Not were like, "In the head you idiot!" I know that, I mean like how far away he shot them. I figure as long as he shot primarily at zeds 15 to 20 feet away, there'd be no chance of a body ramp forming. I hate to think about how many he'd have to shoot to build up an effective barricade, but it could be done. Not a wall I'd depend on to keep me safe, of course. But a barrier to slow the influx to a crawl? I can see it happening. Remember, these zeds don't think. They only hunger! Sort of like teenagers with the munchies meet Jeffrey Dahmer. Ok, that was just wrong. But you know what I meant! As long as the zeds are getting dropped at least 10 feet from your building, you should be ok. It's not like the remaining zeds are gonna actively try to turn their fallen into building blocks. If you don't want a zed right against your wall, don't shoot him there. Shoot the ones BEHIND him. Once you've built up a barrier around the building, you'll have plenty of time to thin out the ones left in your perimeter. We're talking about a SERIOUS number of bodies here. I wouldn't have any worries about them getting built up to my windows. I WOULD worry about disease! That much rotting meat has got to be ground zero for some serious biological voodoo! Some of which might be airborne. I figure this would be the time to start burning the bodies and bunkering down until the smoke cleared. Nasty and disturbing, and you'd lose your barrier, but you'd pretty much have to do it to reduce the threat of disease. I don't really worry about zombies. I'm sure I can deal with shambling hordes of the un-dead. No fears there, but the threat of disease scares the :poo: outta me! Is there a doctor in the house? What are the real repercussions in being surrounded by hordes of the dead? Am I right about the risk of infection? I mean an airborne threat, I can take precautions against contact contamination. It's the airborne stuff that makes me crazy. What's the real chance of such infection?

[Hitman]

in the tape it shows andy with an MP5 9mm subgun . if he had that he surely would have had a silencer or two . .22lr and empty soda bottles work decently enough , even with super sonic ammo the sound won't travel very far . infact sound doesn't travel very far in the city anyway . I think he should have kept up the shooting till his trigger fingers had callused up .

I also don't know why the guys that made it to the gun shop didn't take the MP5 with them when they left on foot back through the sewer . I'm sure andy had an AR or 2 also.

[Gummerfan]

I wish I could play , I'd probly loose as I only use 28 some odd calibers.


Holy Quartermaster, Batman! I've only got half that many to keep track of, and that's a big enough logistical nightmare for me!

[Gummerfan]

First, killing zeds should be it's own reward. One less of them is a good result. Period!That's just what Andy thought....AT FIRST! As for drawing in more of the zombies from the surrounding area... Looked to me like that was happening anyway. That crowd just kept growing.It took Andy a while to figure out the math. That's when he realized it was pointless. Sure each shot would have drawn more zeds...at the beginning. What Andy failed to consider was that a diminishing effect rule would have worked in his favor. As each shot drew in more of the local zombies, there would have been fewer local zombies to hear the next shot. It's not like the zombies that moved to the mall were automatically replaced by some FedEx of the dead! The first shot might have drawn a couple of hundred more zombies. Sure, that would suck. But wait! Andy did take that shot! He also took the next shot that only drew in about a hundred zombies. And the third and fourth and so on. Each of the shots we saw him take as part of his little challenge game would have drawn in fewer and fewer zombies, until the area in earshot of the mall was clear.Even Andy had a finite supply of ammo. It would be pointless to kill off the zombies in the street if it meant using up all his ammo. Sure, wandering zeds might have still added to the crowd occasionally, but not in nearly large enough numbers to make up for the huge numbers he was able to shoot. This ladies and gentlemen is a PLOT HOLE!No, a plot hole is: Why didn't the people in the mall think about using the sewers much earlier on, like when most of us watching did? He should have been dropping every zed he could see! It might have made the difference.Trying to drop every zed you see in an outbreak the size of DOTD is a one-way ticket to death or undeath. You can't win a battle of attrition with zombies.

[Hitman]

Holy Quartermaster, Batman! I've only got half that many to keep track of, and that's a big enough logistical nightmare for me!

tell me about it , I've tried consolidation . I failed horribly , I still have a few calibers I'd like to add to the mix also , such as 10mm , .458socom, and a long range .30 or.338 .

[Bob]

So many issues so little time.

Lets tackle sound first.
I have shot through a soda bottle, it does work perhaps not as well as some would like you to believe but it works. I wonder if it could be improved with some baffling like the insulation out of a wall or a couch both of which Andy had. The big bore stuff that he could not have muffled is not what I was referring to.

10,000 rounds of 22 LR is not an unreasonable amount to be on hand.
Heck I have more than that myself.
Assuming a 25% failure rate that is still 7,500 dead Zeds.

If he knew the manhole was out front of his shop he could have started building the wall of zombies behind it. In comparison to the total population of a city 7500 is a small number but concentrated in a mall parking lot I would think that would be enough to make a difference.

Now if we were talking about 458 magnum or 460 Weatherby it's unlikely he would have had enough on hand to make a difference.

But 10,000 rounds of 22 is only 20 bricks.
While he might not have that much on hand in one brand surely across the brands he would have more than that.
How about 223 often that caliber is sold by the thousand and lets not forget about 7.63x39 and 7.62x54 I would think he would have at least a minimum of a thousand of each.

Then we get into the pistol calibers fired out of carbines.

How about hand loading what he has shot.
Another few thousand I would think.

I don't mean that he could empty the parking lot but I would think he could have thinned it. While we are on the subject of thinking why didn't the mall people put a few boom boxes on the far side of the mall to concentrate them away from the action? They could have hung them by ropes just above the reach of the Zeds.

That being said the guy was starving and not thinking clearly and the people in the mall were of "average" intelligence.

[VideoJunkie]

So many issues so little time.


why didn't the mall people put a few boom boxes on the far side of the mall to concentrate them away from the action? They could have hung them by ropes just above the reach of the Zeds.
Don't be ridiculous. Just because you have a collection of 'boomboxes' on you at all times, doesn't mean the guys in the mall did. Where the hell do you think the guys in the mall are gonna get radios? It's the middle of a zombie invasion! Do you expect the mall survivors to sneak out and run to the mall to do some shopping? That mall they were in was surrounded by...oh, that's right. They were already IN A MALL! Gee, someone should have told them.

That being said the guy was starving and not thinking clearly and the people in the mall were of "average" intelligence.
Ont thing you have to give the movie credit for, is andy's hunger. That really got to me. I thought the movie went out of it's way to make people look stupid and unworthy. But watching Andy slowly starve...that was rough. As far as 'average intelligence', it's amazing how below average it seems to be.

I guess it's not unreasonable to portray people in a zombie movie in this way. It could be that they aren't really stupid. Maybe they're just in shock and unprepared to deal with such a crisis. We can't expect them to get things right, when people on this forum can't agree what the right answer is. We argue back and forth about everything. Each of us seems convinced that we are the one true expert on zombies, and that everyone else is just wrong. Some of us advocate thinning out the zombies around you. Others wrongly assume you shouldn't. Oops! See, even I'm occasionally guilty of noticing how wrong the rest of you...I mean of assuming that I'm always right. We can argue all day about the right choice for a guy trapped in a store loaded with ammo. What we can't deny is that if Andy had spent every waking moment shooting zeds, it wouldn't have made things any worse for him. It might have made things better, or it might not have. But I don't see how things could have gotten worse for him!

Anyway, this has gotten way off topic. So I'll end it here.

[Hitman]

filling the soda bottle with shaving foam is supposed to work pretty well .

also I forgot when they shot andy ,he was in a machine shop area in the back of his gun shop. he could have very easily made some real silencers. no reason to not quietly shoot zombies all day.

[Bob]

He was probably just so freaked out and hungry it didn't occur to him.
I hate fast zombies!

[VideoJunkie]

I hate fast zombies!

Amen! I feel the same way. No way is a fast moving zombie even close to fair! I'm thinking we need to move this discussion to a new thread. Something like Andy was an idiot. Or DOTD - Why they deserved to be eaten!

Just a thought...

Someone, I forget who, recently posted something about how using all his ammo would have been wasteful. Something like that. He was explaining why Andy SHOULDN'T have been shooting zombies. Yes, that's right SHOULDN'T. I don't get it. If you're stuck in a building for the foreseeable future, why not "thin the herd"? One of two thing is gonna happen. Either you'll die there, or you'll escape. Either way, what's the harm in killing zombies? If you're gonna die there, wouldn't you want to kill as many zeds as possible before you go? If you do get out alive, wouldn't you want FEWER zombies in the area? What's the point of hoarding ammo, if you're not gonna use it? That's sort of like hoarding food until you starve to death! It doesn't make sense to me. I'm not saying andy should have used up every round of every caliber he had. I'm saying that the tens of thousands of rounds that were left on the shelves after he was dead were a WASTE!!! The few rounds he used to kill zombies were not! They were used to do exactly what he needed them to do. They killed zombies. Several people in this forum have expressed an unwillingness to kill zombies. They plan to avoid the zombies, and um,... wait for the government? Not me! I'm pretty sure the government is gonna have it's hands full just figuring out how to blame which ever party is in the minority in Congress. Then they'll hold hearings and have votes and more committees will meet and make reports. In about 3 years they'll finally be ready. They'll announce to the survivors that there are no such things as zombies, and that anyone found impersonating a zombie will be fined, and/or imprisoned. Problem solved! NOT!

I'm not saying that we'll be able to shoot every single zombie on the planet. My attention span isn't nearly that long! But I'll damn sure make a good start on the zeds in my area! Bob, you up for a little game of 'One Shot' with the zeds? If you stick to your .380, I'll spot you 6 kills! Pocket pistols aren't cut out for sniping zeds!

My point is that ammo used on the zombies isn't wasted. I hope we can agree on that. Prolly not, but I'm hoping! I'd want to kill every damn zack in the area. That doesn't mean I'm gonna shoot 'em all. I hope to eliminate the majority of the damn things in pit and trench traps. But in order to have the breathing room I need to accomplish that, we're gonna use ammo by the boatload. We're talking about tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of rounds. What's the alternative? Sit back and wait for the zombies get so bored that they head off for a day at the beach? The place I want to hold up has a LOT of canned and dried food. Mu group would probably be able to hold out there for a couple of years, as long as we didn't take in more survivors. That's not gonna be true of most survivors. Most people will be hard pressed to feed themselves for more than a month. If we don't kill the zombies, who's gonna feed those people? I don't see the food on hand being able to support the survivors nearly long enough for the zombies to slowly rot away. Assuming that happens at all, it could be months or even years before the zombies rot away. Also, don't forget about the newer zombies. Survivors that become infected after a month will last a month longer than the earliest zombies. That's a long time to hide and survive on your neighbors canned beans! I say the answer is to clear out your surrounding area and find ways to fence off land for farming. That's gonna take bullets. And it's gonna take people who are willing to spend a lot of time and energy killing zeds. Am I the only one who sees it that way?

[Darkness]

"One question...........What did all that have to do with Snipers on Z-Day? We have a thread about Dawn of the Dead, please use it if you insist on getting off track."

[Bob]

It was more about Andy "sniping" from his rooftop than Dawn of the Dead as a whole. I mean it's not like we were discussing the "boat guy" and his relationship with the "blond girl".

As a commentary on society, when I was a young man there is a good chance that the mall would have had more ammunition in the popular calibers than Andy's gun shop. The mall people could have done their own sniping.

Assuming 4 stores at the mall had ammunition for sale and had 10,000 rounds across all the brands of 22 (remember this is only 20 bricks) with Andy's 10,000 that makes 50,000 rounds of 22. Assume a failure rate of 25% to cover dud rounds and shots that did not drop the zed. This means there would be 37,500 dead zeds from 22 long rifle. If we increase the failure rate to 50% because the mall people are not as good as Andy with a rifle thats still 25,000. Twenty Five Thousand is a large number.

I know for a fact that Wal-Mart gets Federal 22lr in minimum orders of 4 bricks per type. So Bob has not been there lately they will have 2,000 Federal 710s. There is still the Federal Bulk packs of which there are two types. So in Federal alone there is the potential for 6,000 rounds.

No matter how you look at it, thats a lot of sniping.

[The Stoli Strafer]

Most .22LR firearms are easy to clear of misfires too, which is a good thing. Combined with minimal fatigue incurred by sustained fire, you could easily knock out a sizeable horde!

[VideoJunkie]

Ok, I can see why it looks like we've been off topic. ('cause we sorta were) The whole point of this discussion has been whether or not sniping at zombies is a good idea or not. We've been considering this controversy through an examination of Andy's situation in DOTD. He was in a good position to do some serious sniping, and failed to do so. Some of us believe that this was a terrible mistake. We feel that every time an opportunity arises to reduce the zed population without undue risk, it MUST be taken. Others have their own wrongheaded...uh, I mean others appear to disagree. Referencing the movie simply gives everyone a chance discuss the question with limited variables. In effect, it allows an "apples to apples" discussion. We all know the situation Andy was in, and we can all see how he WASTED his chance to make a difference. Or not, if you take the opposing view.:loon: I hope that makes things a little clearer.

I'm glad that we can all agree that Andy blew it, and that in a similar situation, we'd all be laying waste to those puss bags!!! ...uh, we can all agree on that, right? Ok, if not I suppose it wouldn't hurt to listen to your reasons for being wro....I mean your reasons for disagreeing. So, let's hear from the opposition! Tell me why I'm wrong.


PS - If you must degenerate into personal attacks, that's ok by me if you can make them FUNNY! Otherwise what's the point?:lol:

[Bob]

Maybe you were off topic.
I never stray off topic.
Lets go to the range and practice sniping, brain pan only shots.

[Gummerfan]

Ok, I can see why it looks like we've been off topic. ('cause we sota were) The whole point of this discussion has been whether or not sniping at zombies is a good idea or not. We've been considering this controversy through an examination of Andy's situation in DOTD. He was in a good position to do some serious sniping, and failed to do so. Some of us believe that this was a terrible mistake. We feel that every time an opportunity arises to reduce the zed population without undue risk, it MUST be taken. Others have their own wrongheaded...uh, I mean others appear to disagree. Referencing the movie simply gives everyone a chance discuss the question with limited variables. In effect, it allows an "apples to apples" discussion. We all know the situation Andy was in, and we can all see how he WASTED his chance to make a difference. Or not, if you take the opposing view.:loon: I hope that makes things a little clearer.

I'm glad that we can all agree that Andy blew it, and that in a similar situation, we'd all be laying waste to those puss bags!!! ...uh, we can all agree on that, right? Ok, if not I suppose it wouldn't hurt to listen to your reasons for being wro....I mean your reasons for disagreeing. So, let's hear from the opposition! Tell me why I'm wrong.


PS - If you must degenerate into personal attacks, that's ok by me if you can make them FUNNY! Otherwise what's the point?:lol:

Let's see...the population of Milwaukee, WI (where DOTD '04 was set) was 596,974 according to the 2000 census. We can gather that the overwhelming bulk of that population had turned. (since the zeds had pretty much overwhelmed the world in 3 days), and that more zombies possibly migrated in from surrounding areas. (zombies go where the food is, y'know).
I must reiterate, that in Andy's own words (and after all, he was "there"), his shooting only served to draw in MORE zombies, so any efforts at "thinning the herd" actually had the opposite effect.
Now, if you've got a secure, well-stocked location, a couple million or so rounds of ammo, and the mad sniper skilz to make MOST shots count, by all means, have at it. Go ahead and take out all that pent-up aggression and adolescent angst. "WoW! This is so awesome! Like a video game! I'm so freakin' coool!!"
I'll lay low, be quiet, and watch the zeds migrate to your location.
My position remains as before ( on topic, even!):
If the zeds don't know you're there, don't let them know. If they're far enough away to require sharpshooting, odds are they haven't locked onto you. It's foolish to advertise your position to every zombie within earshot (either of you, your weapon, or the other zombies you'll attract) just because you want to play "Fearless Zombie Hunter".

[VideoJunkie]

Let's see...the population of Milwaukee, WI (where DOTD '04 was set) was 596,974 according to the 2000 census. We can gather that the overwhelming bulk of that population had turned. (since the zeds had pretty much overwhelmed the world in 3 days), and that more zombies possibly migrated in from surrounding areas. (zombies go where the food is, y'know).
I must reiterate, that in Andy's own words (and after all, he was "there"), his shooting only served to draw in MORE zombies, so any efforts at "thinning the herd" actually had the opposite effect.
Now, if you've got a secure, well-stocked location, a couple million or so rounds of ammo, and the mad sniper skilz to make MOST shots count, by all means, have at it. Go ahead and take out all that pent-up aggression and adolescent angst. "WoW! This is so awesome! Like a video game! I'm so freakin' coool!!"
I'll lay low, be quiet, and watch the zeds migrate to your location.
My position remains as before ( on topic, even!):
If the zeds don't know you're there, don't let them know. If they're far enough away to require sharpshooting, odds are they haven't locked onto you. It's foolish to advertise your position to every zombie within earshot (either of you, your weapon, or the other zombies you'll attract) just because you want to play "Fearless Zombie Hunter".


Actually, I kind of like the idea of being the "Fearless Zombie Hunter"! I realize that taking out ALL the zombies in Milwaukee with rifle fire is ridiculous. That's not what we're talking about. . The farthest the sound from a 22. rifle is going to travel is one mile. This distance would probably be reduced in a city, as the sound bouncing off buildings would make it impossible to locate the source. But let's stick with a mile for the sake of this discussion. If the sound travels a mile, that means it can be heard throughout a circular area with a radius of one mile. To get the area of a circle we use area = pi * r * r. (Sorry, have no idea how to show the pi symbol on this page) Anyway it's area equals pi R squared.

SO....the area in which the sound might be heard is pi or 3.14 times our raidus of 1 mile times our radius of 1 mile. That's area = 3.14 times 1 or 3.14 miles. Now according to the census bureau Milwaukee has a population density of 6,214.3 per square mile. So 6,215 times 3.14 gives us a total zed population of 19,515. That's less than 20,000 zeds at the mall! I'd have to say that this is a much more manageable number than the half a million you mentioned. I'd say that if I was in a position where I could conceivably cut the local zed population IN HALF, I'd damn sure give it a try. Remember, we're not talking about long range shots here. We're talking about sniping from a rooftop at zombies that are in your parking lot. I don't think many rounds would be wasted at ranges averaging 100 feet.

These numbers depend on the sound traveling for a full mile. We haven't even discussed the possibility of suppression. Andy was in a gun shop with a machine shop. Why couldn't he have rigged a crude suppressor? If it could cut the sound down even a little, we'd be looking at even fewer zeds in the area. If we could cut the sound travel down to 3/4's of a mile, it would reduce our zed population down to a little less than 11 thousand! You know Andy had more than 11 thousand rounds of .22 in his shop. The gun shop/range down the road from me has 6 thousand rounds of .22 on display behind the counter. That doesn't begin to count the ammo in cases in the back. I was assured that they had at least 3 times that amount in back! Again, I'm not saying we could shoot every zed in Milwaukee in an afternoon. I'm not even saying that a bullet in the head is the way I'd plan to remove the majority of the zeds. I prefer to lure them into large traps and dispose of them en masse! But, this is a thread about the usefulness of sniping at zombies. It's already been agreed here that we're including not only the classic shooting at extreme range while concealed scenario, but any sort of shooting from cover or at longer range than would be normal for a handgun. Looking at the numbers, it seems obvious to me that such shooting could be very useful in reducing the threat in your area. It could give you the breathing room to escape, or to consider local eradication of the zombie threat. You know, think globally but kill your local zeds! That sort of thing. I welcome any response. I especially welcome responses that just sort of agree with me and thank me for just being me.:lol: Those are always welcome.

[Bob]

Of the 20,000 within your circle how many do you think would be behind closed doors in a bld or a car unable to get out.
How many would be immobile due to the way they died the first time.
How many would be attracted to some other sound before reaching the mall?

We already know there are inaccuracies in the historical representation we all saw at the theater.
I mean just look what happened when they shot that propane tank.
It's called poetic license when it involves the written word what is it called when it involves film?

[Gummerfan]

It's called poetic license when it involves the written word what is it called when it involves film?
Cinematic license.
"Hey Andy! We've got a plan! We're gonna fight our way across the city to the marina and hop a boat!"
"Great! You guys got any ammo? I wasted all mine popping zombie heads from the roof...":lol:

[Bob]

His 22 LR which I would not have taken when I left the shop...

[VideoJunkie]

Cinematic license.
"Hey Andy! We've got a plan! We're gonna fight our way across the city to the marina and hop a boat!"
"Great! You guys got any ammo? I wasted all mine popping zombie heads from the roof...":lol:

How many of the mall rats died trying to escape the mall? How many might have survived if there had been half as many zeds in the area? Bob had a good point about zeds stuck in office buildings or in there homes. That should reduce the number even further than I speculated in my last post. Also, how many of the dead were just that, DEAD! Not all the people killed by zombies were gonna come back as zombies. Alot of 'em were to torn up and eaten to rise as zombies. Even if the really shredded did come back as zombies, they'd be to damaged to make it to the mall. Once the zeds eat your eyes and legs you won't be walking that well, and navigating to the mall will be a real problem. Considering the original population density, the number of zeds that couldn't escape their building and the number of victims to seriously eaten to pose a threat...the largest population of zeds that seems possible at the mall was around is about 15 to 17 thousand. I'm assuming that only 85% of the local population would be converted to ambulatory predators. I got that figure by assuming that around 15% would either be to torn up to chase you or might have survived at other locations. Seems that the ability to kill off 1/2 to 2/3 of the zeds in your area HAS to be a good thing. How could it be better to face a far larger group of zombies? Wouldn't you want to eliminate the threat, to the greatest degree possible?

Also, you seem to believe shooting zombies is an inherently bad idea. So wouldn't your excursion into cinematic license look more like this.
Cinematic license.
"Hey Andy! We've got a plan! We're gonna fight our way across the city to the marina and hop a boat!"
"Great! You guys don't plan to bring any ammo, do you? I don't want to waste any popping zombies on the way!...":lol:


The point I'm making is that while you seem against shooting zombies. You also seem to think we need to save the ammo...so we can shoot zombies. I'm seeing a bit of a disconnect here. If shooting zeds is a bad thing, why save the ammo. If we're saving the ammo to shoot zeds later, why not kill off the ones around here, the ones that are actively threatening us NOW? If shooting zombies is a good idea later, why isn't it a good idea now?

Here's a new twist. Say you use up all your .22lr popping zeds near your current location. Remember, your only going to expose yourself to the zombies in earshot of your gun. That's about 3.14 square miles or less than 20 thousand zeds under optimum (for the zeds) conditions. More reasonable estimates are between 15 to 17 thousand. Now, you've still got zeds in the area, but no where near as many as before. So now you can escape. Look at the number of gun and pawn shops in Milwaukee. Then look at the number of Wal-Marts. Once you clear out most of the zeds in your area, using nothing but .22lr remember, you've still got all you're REAL ammo left. You can easily pick up more ammo from the other gun and pawn shops, and even from the Wal-Marts. Personally, I'd still avoid the Wally worlds. They're to big and dark (power out?) and EVERYONE's gonna be heading there. Of course, you could possibly hook up with other survivors on the way. If groups in each city would try this, they'd stand a chance of taking back the country. Or at least large parts of it. Hell, it's better than just sitting around counting the ammo you've saved over and over and over...

Again, I'm not saying we shoot ALL the zombies, most would be taken out in pit and trench traps. But we have to shoot thousands, or maybe tens of thousands, first to give us the room to set up our traps. Then we can begin the systematic elimination of the zeds!


Finally, what's the real alternative to trying to eliminate the zeds. I've heard people talk about hiding quietly and "waiting it out". Then what? How long do you expect to "hide out"? How are you going to feed your group for all that time? What about clean water and sanitation (plumbing)? If you dismiss the idea of sniping at the zombies when given a chance in favor of a hide and wait strategy, what's your endgame? How do you ever go back to living? Are you just hoping that the zeds will get bored and pack it in? Where will you and all the other non aggressive survivors be in a year? in two years? I'm not sure any of you will be alive, unless some of us "Fearless Zombie Hunters" are able to mop up all the zeds! That's my theory, anyway. Where am I wrong?


I know this might sound like it was written by an arrogant ass.



You were expecting more from that last sentence? Sorry, I was just stating a fact, so we'd all know that I already knew it. Now you don't have to waste time telling me I sound like an arrogant ass. Just my way of trying to save you a little time. Don't bother thanking me. I'm just that considerate! Seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk, and if it comes across that way, just consider the source and ignore it.

[Gummerfan]

Nah, I don't think you're an arrogant ass.
You just seem to be lacking critical, need-to-know information.
I'm not against shooting zombies. I'm against shooting zombies that pose no threat. I'm in favor saving ammo to shoot the zombies that are, oh, say, a few feet from you and closing in, instead of needlessly "sniping" at zombies who are 200 yards away who don't know you're there.

"There's like 250, say 300 of 'em. I've got like 10,000 rounds of ammunition." (total!)"We could take them ALL out!"-Andy's diary, May 8, 2004 11:06AM-

"Okay, sniping's out."(Hey! Anybody else hear that?)" I was up on the roof for like an hour, I must've loosed 200, no, more like 300 rounds. Every time you hit one of 'em, two more show up."( So, kill one, you've got one to replace that one, plus one more. Kill two, you've got two to replace them, plus two more, etc. That's called "increasing exponentially.")
"It's like that hobbit dragon thing where you cut off one head and two grow back. It's an exercise in futility."- Andy's diary, May 8 10:11PM-

Oh, and regarding the zeds stuck in office buildings, or trapped in cars, yaddah yaddah, bear in mind that zombies travel from city to city, state to state. So you've got to bear in mind that the local population figures are just a rough guide. Unless the borders or city limits were somehow sealed off, there's really no way to estimate the number of zeds that may gravitate to a certain area, or wander within that 3.14 square mile radius during the time span in which you're playing "Wook at me! I'm kiwwing zombies!"

[VideoJunkie]

Actually, there is a way to estimate the number of zeds that could reach a certain area (in our example it's the mall). We've covered the population density in the city. That's where we got the numbers we started with. Now, understanding that the sound from the rifle won't carry far enough to alert any zeds outside our 1 mile radius, there is no reason to assume a large scale influx of the undead INTO our area. Sure, we'll have occasional stragglers wandering in by random chance, but they won't be trying to migrate towards us. That's the whole point of figuring out the worst case number of zeds we might expect to see at the mall. Once we've attracted the zeds from within earshot, there won't be any significant number of newcomers. As far as the idea that we'll see zombies from other cities or states...why? What's so tasty about our mall rats that zeds will travel for such unbelievable distances? Don't see it that way? Consider this...

The average walking speed of a person is 3 mph. That's according to several sources. (stats given varied from 2 to 3.5 mph)

Madison Wisconsin is about 80 miles from Milwaukee, and has less than half the population of Milwaukee.

So, if the average person started walking from Madison to Milwaukee, it would take them about 27 hours. That's assuming they never needed to rest or stop for any reason. 27 hours!!! That's a good little trek for an average person. Now, why the hell would any group of zombies suddenly decide to migrate to a city 80 miles away? I don't see what's so special about our mall rats, that zombies are gonna travel 80 miles for a taste. Maybe that's just me! If zombies from Madison are going to migrate to Milwaukee, does that mean some of the Milwaukee zombies might be heading to Chicago? Or do migrating zombies always magically head to the city we're in? Is this damn mall cursed? I've seen nothing to suggest that zombies will migrate from city to city, and state to state, despite your assertion that I should bear in mind that zombies travel from city to city, state to state. Why would they? I'm serious, I don't see any reason for zombies from South Carolina to head toward Milwaukee. Even if they did, and didn't get distracted by anything, it would still take them 14 days of nonstop walking to reach us. By then we'll be gone or dead, so...who cares!

Screw it, let's assume that the Madison zeds did decide to relocate to beutiful downtown Milwaukee. If zombies are attracted to sound and movement, they'll doubtless be distracted on the way. I've got to believe that during that 27 hour walk, something would distract them, and add a little more time to the journey! Honestly, I can't see them understanding where they were going at all, much less being able to avoid getting lost, and why the hell...Nope, I said I'd agree to the premise that the dead like Milwaukee better. Ok, they're coming. The earliest they're gonna get here is a little over a day from now, probably longer. I guess the only solution is to get the hell outta here. We can agree on that, right? The food is running low in the mall, and Andy is just plain out of food. Staying here as more and more zombies arrive from the surrounding countryside is suicide. So, what do we do? We've got between 15 to 17 thousand zeds around the mall. That sucks, but ignore it. Let's just pack up and leave....Still here? Why haven't you left yet? You said that...
I'm against shooting zombies that pose no threat. I'm in favor saving ammo to shoot the zombies that are, oh, say, a few feet from you and closing in, instead of needlessly "sniping" at zombies who are 200 yards away who don't know you're there.

Now, the zeds surrounding the mall apparently pose no threat, right? After all, they aren't a few feet away from you and closing in. So, we shouldn't snipe at them, right? Does that mean that we just walk outside and hope for the best. No, wait, you said we could shoot at them once they're a few feet away. AAARRRHHHGGG!!!!!

Sorry, my brain was melting!

Ok, we've agreed that we need to leave immediately. We've agreed that the zeds in the parking lot are gonna eat us if we try to leave. I say shooting them from the roof is a good idea, you advocate waiting until they're a few feet away. Basically, I'm pro sniper and your wrong as ... that is, you're anti sniper. So, while I want to kill off the majority of the 15 to 17 thousand zeds in the area, you want to...wait, I don't really get what you want to do. Are you saying that since the zeds in the lot are to far away to be a threat, we should just leave the building and THEN start shooting. Seriously, I don't get what you are proposing. I'd appreciate an explanation.


Now, not to be a jerk, but...Every time you hit one of 'em, two more show up."[/i]( So, kill one, you've got one to replace that one, plus one more. Kill two, you've got two to replace them, plus two more, etc. That's called "increasing exponentially.")

That's actually a linear progression, not an exponential increase. The better example of an exponential increase would be the multiplication of zeds. That fact alone argues in favor of killing everyone we can! OOPS...make that every one we can. Wow, the space there really makes a difference! I meant kill all the zombies, not just start killing everyone! That would be wrong. Even in Milwaukee!:lol:


Okay, there were several questions in my last post that went unanswered. I'd appreciate some answers if you have the time. I'll repost them here.

How many of the mall rats died trying to escape the mall? How many might have survived if there had been half as many zeds in the area? Seems that the ability to kill off 1/2 to 2/3 of the zeds in your area HAS to be a good thing. How could it be better to face a far larger group of zombies? Wouldn't you want to eliminate the threat, to the greatest degree possible?


What's the real alternative to trying to eliminate the zeds? I've heard people talk about hiding quietly and "waiting it out". Then what? How long do you expect to "hide out"? How are you going to feed your group for all that time? What about clean water and sanitation (plumbing)? If you dismiss the idea of sniping at the zombies when given a chance in favor of a hide and wait strategy, what's your endgame? How do you ever go back to living? Are you just hoping that the zeds will get bored and pack it in? Where will you and all the other non aggressive survivors be in a year? in two years? I'm not sure any of you will be alive, unless some of us "Fearless Zombie Hunters" are able to mop up all the zeds! That's my theory, anyway. Where am I wrong?

Those are the questions that I'd like answered. I will, of course, be glad to answer any questions you might have about my ideas. If it seems like I'm attacking you here, I'm actually just attacking some of your ideas. Who knows, you might even convince me that I'm wrong. Not likely, but it could happen! I appreciate your willingness to engage in this 'debate' and your attempting to keep things civil and friendly, despite the occasional slip.

"Wook at me! I'm kiwwing zombies!"

Hey, nobody's perfect!!!:lol:

[Gummerfan]

The main reason I haven't answered some of your questions is that we're already on the verge of getting off-topic again, and some of the answers require venturing into the territory of zombie behavior, types of zombies, and stuff that would really de-rail the thread.
I don't want to get myself tranq'ed. (I've been spanked, I've been tanked, I've been yanked, cranked, awakened and thanked. But I don't relish the thought of being tranq'ed!)
Why would zombies travel? Because (like Terminators), that's what they do, that's all they do. They wander aimlessly about, hither, thither and yon, until they "lock onto" something. Either they see food, or they hear something that means food. (like a gunshot, or the moaning of the thousands of zombies that gathered at the sound of the gunshot) Why were zombies roaming about the countryside in NOTLD & DOTD '78? Because they're zombies, that's why.
And the food wasn't running out in the mall. They had plenty. They decided to leave because, well, they were bored.
(and if you really want someone to call you an ass, just wait til Z-Day, when you'll likely some vaiation of the word preceeded by the phrase: "Well, they know we're here NOW! Nice going!...)
Ok, we've agreed that we need to leave immediately. We've agreed that the zeds in the parking lot are gonna eat us if we try to leave. I say shooting them from the roof is a good idea, you advocate waiting until they're a few feet away. Basically, I'm pro sniper and your wrong as ... that is, you're anti sniper. So, while I want to kill off the majority of the 15 to 17 thousand zeds in the area, Okay, so you get a dead solid headshot with each of your 10,000 rounds. Wading through the remaining 5 to 7 THOUSAND zombies (with no more ammo) is a cakewalk, then? Oh wait, I forgot, more keep coming. Check that cakewalk. you want to...wait, I don't really get what you want to do. Are you saying that since the zeds in the lot are to far away to be a threat, we should just leave the building and THEN start shooting. Seriously, I don't get what you are proposing. I'd appreciate an explanation.
Had Andy not started firing willy-nilly, there would have been less zeds to deal with once they decided on a course of action. Shooting zeds once you have a PLAN is one thing. Taking potshots from the roof, attracting more zombies, and needlessly burning up that precious ammo because you DON'T have plan, is another matter, altogether.
"Taking potshots from the roof, attracting more zombies, and needlessly burning up that precious ammo because you DON'T have a plan, is another matter."
(that's my little salute to "Airplane!") :)

[Bob]

They would have rapidly reached a point that the maximum number of zombies would be achieved.

Andy was starving and not thinking clearly.
Some sort of distraction on the far side of the mall would have worked wonders as well.

Yes they wander but in familiar surroundings, why else would there have been zombies still in their home towns in land of the dead.

[Gummerfan]

They would have rapidly reached a point that the maximum number of zombies would be achieved.

Andy was starving and not thinking clearly.
Some sort of distraction on the far side of the mall would have worked wonders as well.

Yes they wander but in familiar surroundings, why else would there have been zombies still in their home towns in land of the dead.
If that's the case, why didn't the raiders just load up, take Dead Reckoning, and clear out the place?

[Darkness]

Had Andy not started firing willy-nilly, there would have been less zeds to deal with once they decided on a course of action. Shooting zeds once you have a PLAN is one thing. Taking potshots from the roof, attracting more zombies, and needlessly burning up that precious ammo because you DON'T have plan, is another matter, altogether.
"Taking potshots from the roof, attracting more zombies, and needlessly burning up that precious ammo because you DON'T have a plan, is another matter."
(that's my little salute to "Airplane!") :)

"That's why I mentioned Snipers for taking out strays, that are about to do something to jepordize your security."

"Set one on the roof/high spot/tree/etc., and give them a silenced rifle. They can pick off that zombie thats about to figure out how to open that one door, or the one about to tip over that lantern into that tank of gas by the wall, or even the one about to figure out how to get up that emergency ladder."

"And then when you're ready to run and find a real escape, he can sit near the top of your fortified truck/van/tank/etc., picking off the small tanks of gas as you toss them into the on rushing crowd of hungry zombies."

"How's that for sound thinking?." :)

[Gummerfan]

Yep, that sounds like a plan.
Plans are good.

[Bob]

If that's the case, why didn't the raiders just load up, take Dead Reckoning, and clear out the place?

Perhaps they just didn't consider them to be enough of a threat.
They had learned how to cope with them.
As far as the raiding of the smaller towns with the "sky flowers" the zeds were rendered impotent. The only ones that remained a threat were the ones who could not see the "pretty lights in the sky".


Unless you are talking about cleaning the world or at least their city.
In that case it would seem to be a case of "familiarity breeds contempt".
The powers that be didn't care enough to bother.

[VideoJunkie]

Busy as hell right now, with a wedding and a bachelor party this weekend, but I wanted to take a sec to point out a flaw in the discussions we've had in this thread. All of us, myself included, have taken it on faith that zeds would head toward the sound of gunfire. I pointed out that the sound of an unsilenced .22 rifle wouldn't carry nearly as far as some seemed to think. That's true, but it might be beside the point. In Dawn '04, the zeds IGNORE the sound of a high powered rifle! They absolutely ignored it! If you check the movie at about the 56 minute mark, you'll see Andy sniping the hell out of a few celebrity look alikes. The zeds don't storm toward his shop. They don't react at all! Look for yourself. They seem not to notice the sound. Hell, I've been around a lot of firearms in the last several years, and I'd still flinch a little at an unexpected shot. But not the zeds! They show no reaction at all. Take that, along with the fact that zeds started wandering to the mall long before the shooting started, and it seems to indicate that the sound didn't really matter at all! Doesn't that mean that sniping from the roof, where you're safe from zombie retaliation is a GOOD idea? The only downsides to such sniping were...
1) The sound would draw in more zeds from the nearby area.
2) You're wasting ammo.

If the first issue is invalid, which, at least according to Dawn '04 seems to be the case, then the second issue would be the controlling consideration. So it comes down to whether a dead zombie is worth the price of a bullet. I've gotta say yes. Anything you can do to reduce the zed population in your area is it's own reward! Wouldn't you want to clear out your local zeds, so you can prepare your killing fields for the rest of the zeds? You know, the ones that are on their way from Florida.:lol:

Anyway, I was just curious if anyone else had noticed the zed's lack of interest in loud noises in the film, and if they had considered that in regards to the advisability of sniping from a rooftop.

[Gummerfan]

First up, zombies got no instinct for self-preservation, they don't flinch.:doh:
You're talking about the zeds that are already THERE, right? The zeds that had already "locked in" on Andy and the mall survivors? The zeds that had ALREADY been attracted to the mall by the sound of gunfire and the moans of the others? The zeds that gravitated to the noise Andy made while trying trying to "take them ALL out"? The thousands that converged on the scene AFTER Andy "cut loose 200, no, more like 300 rounds"?
Unless somebody develops a weapon of mass zombie destruction, the fact remains that in a DOTD '04 situation (fast zombies, fast-acting rate of infection) there will ALWAYS be more zombies than people, and more zombies than you have ammo. Picture yourself as an Allied soldier in WW2. You somehow get dropped into downtown Berlin. You gonna just start shooting every German you see? Or are you gonna stealthily make your way to a safer location?
Or is it just pointless to even try to survive? After all, the mallrats who DID escape just ended up dying somewhere else.
(Your equation of one zombie per bullet is flawed. Even if you never miss, that one bullet is going to attract more to replace the one you took out.)
But here's an idea: It should be SOP for every Fearless Zombie Hunter to wear a shrapnel-laden high-explosive suicide vest, so when they find themselves swarmed by the zombies their potshots didn't kill, and their weapons are empty, they can at least take one or two more before they go.

[VideoJunkie]

Did you even watch the movie? Seriously, I'm starting to wonder. The point I made was so simple even you should be able to grasp it. The zombies in the lot didn't react to the gunfire. Can you grasp that concept? THEY DIDN'T REACT!


You're talking about the zeds that are already THERE, right? The zeds that had already "locked in" on Andy and the mall survivors? The zeds that had ALREADY been attracted to the mall by the sound of gunfire and the moans of the others? The zeds that gravitated to the noise Andy made while trying trying to "take them ALL out"? The thousands that converged on the scene AFTER Andy "cut loose 200, no, more like 300 rounds"?


Yes, I'm talking about zeds that were in the parking lot. I watched the movie. I also watched the original. I didn't see anything that proved that the zeds were tracking people based on the sound they made. Just the opposite, in fact. If they don't react to gunfire less than 100 yards away, what makes you think that they'll immediately begin tracking down gunshots from a mile away? Where do you get that from what you saw in the movie? I pointed out a scene in the movie that argued against the zeds hunting down sources of noise. The mallrats seemed to believe that some remaining instinct or lingering memory was responsible for the zeds being attracted to the mall. I guess we'll just have to be grateful that you're here to tell us better.:lol: Look, it's a movie. Actually, it's an original movie and a remake. Whatever. It seems silly to get into an argument about what drove fictional zombies to behave in a certain way in a movie. Well, this whole discussion seems a little silly, and it hasn't stopped us yet!

Yes, it's generally accepted that zeds will be attracted to noises, like cars and gunfire. No, I don't disagree with that idea. I simply pointed out that the movie doesn't seem to indicate that this is true. It actually seems to argue in the other direction. Since this wasn't something I'd considered before, I thought I'd mention it. Seemed like an interesting thing to think about. From the tone of your response, it's apparent that thinking isn't something you enjoy.:loon: Sorry about that.

the fact remains that in a DOTD '04 situation (fast zombies, fast-acting rate of infection) there will ALWAYS be more zombies than people and more zombies than you have ammo.[/QUOTE]

What? Where do I begin...

Ok, you say there will be more zeds than people. That's possible, but not a sure thing. It would depend on the number of simultaneous outbreaks. If it started in a specific region, cutting transportation could drastically slow the outbreak. It's possible that it could be contained and managed. Not saying it would, just that it COULD. It's naive to simply declare that the zeds will automatically have the numerical advantage overall. Sure, in the hotzones we'd be vastly outnumbered, but that doesn't mean the same conditions would apply everywhere. Zeds aren't intelligent, and won't try to actively infiltrate the safe zones. Think about it.

the fact remains that in a DOTD '04 situation (fast zombies, fast-acting rate of infection) there will ALWAYS be more zombies than you have ammo.


Not even close! How many zombies are we talking about? Right now, I've got access to an almost unlimited supply of ammo. Seriously, between what's stored at the IRS Enforcement office (Small office, lined with shelves and metal cages LOADED with .40 cal and 9mm) and the armory at the ATF office in the same building (haven't seen inside yet) I could load up a ridiculous amount of ammo. Add that to what's stored at the armory and the local gunshops and the local walmarts and the local police departments and... are you starting to get it now? Not only is there more ammo in this country than we could have zombies, the ratio is kind of ridiculous! There are enough bullets in this country to kill everyone several times over. (God I love this Country) So, relax, we've got the ammo thing covered! Hell, if things really got bad we could just run by Bob's place. He's got enough ammo for a medium sized war all by himself! If you consider that he can also reload his own ammo, the numbers get a little out of hand. Does that mean I plan to shoot every zed in the world...NO! I've said it several times, but you seem unable to grasp the idea. Ok, here it is one more time. Shooting zeds is, and must be, part of the solution. However, the majority of the zombies would be destroyed in traps. I'm partial to pit and trench traps, although with sufficient fuel availability, Fence and Burn traps could also be effective. The point is your lack of faith in good old fashioned firepower is...disturbing.


Picture yourself as an Allied soldier in WW2.Ok, I'm picturing it.You somehow get dropped into downtown Berlin.OK, time to kill some NAZIS!!! You gonna just start shooting every German you see?Nope, most of the German civilians are decent hard working people. Or are you gonna stealthily make your way to a safer location?Actually, I'd do neither. I'd try to find the target that would most hurt the nazi war effort, and try to destroy it. I don't speak german, and I don't know the area. I have no chance of escape, so I'd try to make my death as expensive as I could for the Nazis! If, on the other hand the nazis were incapable of shooting back and too stupid to take cover or make their way to the roof, then yes, I'd just start shooting nazis!
Or is it just pointless to even try to survive? After all, the mallrats who DID escape just ended up dying somewhere else.


There it is!!! I've been trying to get you to explain your endgame for awhile now. You wouldn't or couldn't, and now I think I see why. You have the attitude that it's pointless. Don't shoot the zombies, it might make them mad! It's pointless to shoot zombies, there are just to many of them! WRONG!

:evil:Don't panic, the Fearless Zombie Hunter is here to save your ass...maybe. To answer your question, no, it's not pointless. Some moron once said that you couldn't win a war of attrition against zombies. WRONG! That's exactly the way you do win such a war! You kill off the ones in your area, then set up your area to deal with new zombie incursions. Once that's done, you organize patrols to extend the cleared area. Easy? Of course not. But it's doable. Hell, I'd rather fight a war against the zeds than try and clear out the bad sections of Iraq or Afghanistan. In those places the enemy can think and shoot. Our zeds don't do either. That's gonna make all the difference! Instead of hiding out somewhere and praying for rescue, we'd have to work on saving our own asses! In the final analysis, I hope the zeds are attracted to the sound of gunfire. That's how I'm gonna pull 'em in to my traps, and that's where we're gonna wipe 'em out!

A final note, if you're thinking that a lot of that ammo will be taken and used by others...GREAT!! I hope that I'm not the only Fearless Zombie Hunter out there. I know Bob's onboard, and some of the other guys here at ATZ have made it clear that they're gonna be killing some zeds. Everyone that joins in the fight makes it easier and brings the outbreak to a close that much sooner! It's people who hide out and wait for rescue that might never come, while doing nothing to reduce the zombie threat who aren't helping. But hey, not everyone is cut out to be a ...(wait for it)....


...




:evil:FEARLESS ZOMBIE HUNTER!!!:evil::lol::clap:




Some people are just meant to be toasters....:cry:

[Bob]

Well now that I have cleaned up the Red Bull that shot out my nose...
I have got to quit reading this forum while drinking ANYTHING!

I am on board with reducing the Zed population.
I know more than a few other people who feel the same way.
While you are cowering in the snack bar at the mall I will be out on the roof kicking ass and taking NO names! Our motto back in the day was "Kill'em all let God sort them out".

I fully expect to find a number of Zeds at our fall back spot.
They will be dealt with expeditiously and with extreme prejudice.
If you don't thin the herd how are you going to get the numbers low enough to avoid being swarmed when you have to get down and dirty.
Swarming is the real danger, I feel I am more than a match for less than a swarm.

I really am not worried about running out of ammunition.
I am worried about dying like Andy did with thousands of rounds left on the shelf.

[Darkness]

"Ok, love the concepts, but its not exactly on topic." :lol:


"I feel that every type of shooter has their place, and job, in the war against the Zombies."

"Snipers can be used for precision shots, needed for other plans to work. And just because they are a Sniper, it doesn't mean they can't pick up a regular gun and be a hunter as well. In the Zombie War, Sniping will be a back-up skill, used only as needed. At least In MY safe camp it will be. But no one is useless, especially if they know any thing that can help us survive."

"I'd like to have atleast four people in my group who have good Sniper abilities, because they include other skills. Which include, being able to keep watch, safely, quietly and patiently; good night vision; good hiding skills and other useful traits, on top of being a good shot." (Why 4 you ask? That's easy, one for each corner of the fort/safe house/compound.) ;-)

[Gummerfan]

:x:x:x:x
I'm not talking about how much ammo exists, I'm talking about how much ammo one can stockpile (beforehand), and carry or transport. It doesn't matter if a "convenient plot point" in your anti-zombie plan (like finding a well-stocked, yet abandoned armoury, or a deserted WalMart that happens to be chock full o' ammo) allows for the existence of more, the zeds still have the numbers in their favor. In DOTD '04, the outbreak was worldwide in three days. The timeframe encompassed in the entire movie was 28 days.
NEXT:
Noise attracts zombies. Yeah, I've seen the movie,(I've even quoted lines from Andy himself, which you choose to ignore) I've also seen plenty of other Romero-esque zombie movies, and this point is made over and over again.
And I said the zombies didn't react to the noise of the gunfire. Zombies don't flinch. And since they ALREADY knew Andy & the mallrats were there, there was NO REASON for them to react.
NEXT:
Zombies roam. In NOTLD as well as DOTD '78, zeds are shown roaming the countryside, through fields and pastures. Yes, pastures. Is pasture-roaming a popular pastime in Pennsylvania? Didn't think so. Do the citizens around Pittsburgh possess an instinct that drives them to wander aimlessly about rural farmland?
In Day Of The Dead, the underground base was out in the middle of nowhere (such is the nature of underground bases) yet the fence was lined with zombies, and the number was increasing. Why? Attracted by the noise of the helicopter? Or the moans of the other zombies? YA THINK?? (of course ya don't think, that was a rhetorical question) Just where did they come from? The middle of nowhere? Nope. A rational person (not you, of course, but a rational person) could logically deduce that they came from...SOMEWHERE ELSE! (See? It's not really that hard!)
But hey, continue to revel in your little fantasy. MY personal survival plan relies on there being people who share you viewpoint. I even have a special word for them: "bait".

[VideoJunkie]

"Ok, love the concepts, but its not exactly on topic." :lol:


"I feel that every type of shooter has their place, and job, in the war against the Zombies."

"Snipers can be used for precision shots, needed for other plans to work. And just because they are a Sniper, it doesn't mean they can't pick up a regular gun and be a hunter as well. In the Zombie War, Sniping will be a back-up skill, used only as needed. At least In MY safe camp it will be. But no one is useless, especially if they know any thing that can help us survive."

"I'd like to have atleast four people in my group who have good Sniper abilities, because they include other skills. Which include, being able to keep watch, safely, quietly and patiently; good night vision; good hiding skills and other useful traits, on top of being a good shot." (Why 4 you ask? That's easy, one for each corner of the fort/safe house/compound.) ;-)


I like the idea of having more typical snipers preforming overwatch from the corners of the compound. That way any approaching enemy would come under fire from two of the snipers. You might want to increase that number to 6 or 8. People have to sleep sometime!

As far as this thread getting off topic...
We're not limiting the discussion to only military-trained snipers, we're also discussing the usefulness of marksmen, sharpshooters, hunters, and guys who are plain old good shots with any kind of firearm.

Carry on.

...it's been sort of accepted in this thread that we weren't just discussing the classic military trained sniper. We've been discussing the usefulness of a more broadly defined role. One that encompasses sharpshooting skills, as opposed to the broad skill set required of a military sniper. We've kicked around titles such as marksman and sharpshooter, but it was generally agreed that anyone who performed this function for a team could be called a sniper. If for no other reason than to simplify this discussion.

One of the big debates here now, is whether it's a good idea to kill zombies at all! It's been argued that shooting a zed will just cause more to arrive, and so it's pointless. Some of us disagree. We feel that sniping zeds, as in from a rooftop is going to be an integral part of the zombie solution. So, we're in favor of Snipers on Z day. Others don't want any part of it, and claim it's a bad idea to kill the zeds. I don't get it. If you're not actively working to exterminate the zeds, how do we ever get past the outbreak?

[Gummerfan]

One of the big debates here now, is whether it's a good idea to kill zombies at all!Don't put words in my mouth. I said that "shooting zombies" is not a plan in and of itself. It's been argued that shooting a zed will just cause more to arrive, and so it's pointless. Some of us disagree. We feel that sniping zeds, as in from a rooftop is going to be an integral part of the zombie solution. So, we're in favor of Snipers on Z day. Not pointless, just not a wise choice for the poor bastard who's gonna end up stuck on a roof, surrounded by zombies, eventually running out of ammo and starving to death. Others don't want any part of it, and claim it's a bad idea to kill the zeds. Again, if you insist on putting words in my mouth, at least wash your hands first. I never said it's a "bad idea to kill zeds", I'll re-reiterate (for the benefit of any re-re's out there) any attempts by a lone, or group of self-styled zombie hunters is doomed to fail. It borders on delusional to think that a few individuals are gonna succeed in saving humanity while trained and better-equipped military personnel are too inept to survive. I don't get it. If you're not actively working to exterminate the zeds, how do we ever get past the outbreak?
In the context of the given DOTD '04 scenario, we don't. That was sort of the point of the whole movie.

[Darkness]

"Fine, debate."

"Just back off of the name calling, the ego bashing, the slandering and the mud slinging. You don't need it to have a satisfying debate. That goes for ALL of you."

[vortec1]

Be'ing mobile is the best choice. But a sniper clearing the way really has It's advantages!

[Bob]

NO name calling.
I am not saying to eliminate every Zombie just thin the herd.
They really did not seem to respond to sound in the remake.
They totally ignored the whistle.

It is doubtful I would run out of bullets.

[vortec1]

Well BOB I agree can't make them all lay down just hit the ones that matter then move on!

[Gummerfan]

... just hit the ones that matter then move on!
Where were you like 3 pages ago? :clap:

[vortec1]

Be mobile hit the ones that matter move on take what you need collect surviviors on the way!:lol:

[VideoJunkie]

"Fine, debate."

"Just back off of the name calling, the ego bashing, the slandering and the mud slinging. You don't need it to have a satisfying debate. That goes for ALL of you."

Yeah!! You heard her! That goes for all of you!!! So there!!


...wait a minute...you didn't mean ALL of you, like in me too? Right? RIGHT?

[vortec1]

Yup she did!:)

[VideoJunkie]

Be mobile hit the ones that matter move on take what you need collect surviviors on the way!:lol:


Ok, as far as it goes. Here's the question. What's the point? What's your endgame. If we're not going to eliminate the zeds, then why not just do like gomer seems to suggest and blow our own brains out? Sure, when it first hits the fan you'll have to move fast and try to just stay alive. That's the controlling factor until you find a defensible position and enough ammo and supplies to make a difference. Then, you have to act! You have to work on destroying the zeds! What's the alternative? Hope they get bored and off themselves? Seriously, despite Gomer's misunderstanding of the amount of ammo available in the U.S., rational people who have actually been in a gun shop or even a Wal-Mart will know that acquiring a large amount of ammo isn't hard. The stuff is everywhere! Hell, ask Bob how many rounds he can supply. You won't believe his answer, but ask him anyway! Some people seem to keep harping on killing zombies not being a plan. WRONG! Killing zeds is a plan. I plan to kill zeds. That's not the whole plan, but this isn't the thread for discussion of detailed plans! However, I have made it clear that the sniping is only to thin out the surrounding zeds. This is necessary to allow us the freedom to try other methods of zed disposal. We've already discussed several alternate methods of accomplishing this goal. Here's a list of some of them.

1 - Use a dozer of backhoe to cut out a trench. Lure the zeds into the area and let them fall into the trench. Then spray 'em down and light 'em up! Once they're done cooking, reuse the trench. Keep this up until the damn thing is full of zed bones and dust. Cover it over, and dig a new trench. Repeat as needed.

2 - Starting from scratch or better yet, modify existing fencing. Set up a long fence line leading into a pocket. Lure the zeds into the area, until the fence is between you and the zombies. Then either walk the fence with a .22 or spray across the fence with gas or other accelerant and light 'em up!

3 - Here's a tricky one. Get to a vehicle. Start the vehicle. Run them down! The end. Ok, depending on the car or truck you use, you might run the risk of damaging the radiator or belts if you did this. So, PUT IT IN REVERSE!!! That's right, back over 'em! It might not do enough brain damage to stop them for good, but it will do enough damage to keep them from walking, much less running!

4 - Assuming the zeds are attracted to noise (and I never said they wouldn't be), then dig a large pit. Set up a propane line to feed into the pit through a large burner, or series of burners. You could also use gasoline if you have ready access to it. Then you wouldn't need the burners. Once you have your fire pit set up, you hang a boombox high over the pit. High enough to avoid damage from the heat. Start up the boombox and watch the zeds come wandering in to burn. They have no sense of self preservation, so they should wander right into the pit!

5 - Cut the high tension wire that's holding up the nearset cell tower or radio trasmission tower. You might also find some holding power polls in place. You get about thirty feet of this cable and string it between the trailer hitches on the back of a couple of trucks. Secure it well! Then the 2 trucks head out into the lot around the mall, or any large paved area. As they spread apart, the line will go taut between them. Now it's sunny drive time!!!
Just drive through the masses of zeds, and you'll take 'em out at the knees! Ok, it's not gonna destroy the brain, but it greatly reduces the risk from these zeds. Now that they're crawling, your next trip around the mall might just crush a few heads! If one of the trucks is disabled, the second truck will be able to tow the first to safety!


Ok, that's 5 ways to wreak a little destruction on the zeds that do not have to require ammo. None of these will be feasible until we thin out the local zeds first. That's where the sniping comes into play! The point is that if you're not ever going to work on killing off the zeds, then you'll never be rid of the zeds. Killing the local zeds isn't the end of the plan, it's more like the beginning. But it's an essential part of the plan. Gomer doesn't like to talk about killing zeds, but he doesn't provide any answers about what to do instead. Maybe he wants to teach zombies to linedance! I mean, hell, if you're not gonna destroy the zeds, then what else is there?

Anyway, this is a thread about the usefulness of snipers/marksmen/sharpshooters on Z day. Not about our long term plans. So, in that respect I have to say that such people will play a vital role in our post Z day survival. I'm not sure how anyone can disagree with that analysis.

[VideoJunkie]

Yup she did!:)

:doh:How rude!!!:lol:

[VideoJunkie]

Maybe rescue will come and maybe it won't. Either way, how long can you stay in hiding and just wait for it? Don't you have do something to help? The best remedy for having to many zombies is...

A) Hide in the attic till they go away.

B) Kill off as many zeds as you can!

C) Save all your ammo for some unspecified later use, while doing nothing constructive!


Ok, pick one!

[vortec1]

Man telling you just role in to the next national Guard reserve when they leave stocks in place for future use!

[detpat]

you wouldn't believe how many hundreds of thousands of rounds a cabela's warehouse has on hand at any one time.

[Darkness]

"Ok, guys, breaks over. Now get back to talking about sharpshooters/snipers/marksmen/all around good shots; and their rolls in the battle against zombies."

[VideoJunkie]

Thanks for the posts guys! That cabelas warehouse sounds like a dream for a team that wanted to do a little sniping! Load up a tractor trailer rig with food and water, and pull it up against the front of the store to block the front entrance. Set a ladder up on the truck to let you onto the roof. Once on the roof, it'll be easy to get into the building and stock up on ammo! You'll have to clear the building of any zeds first, but it's gotta be worth it. Then just get your best shots on the roof, and let 'em get to it! With that much ammo, they'd be able to clear out every zed in earshot, and have ammo left over! Then you could drive slowly through the city with the radio blasting, to lure zeds back to the kill zone! Nice way to start clearing 'em out!:evil:

We've got an armory about 5 miles from my place, but I've never been in there, so can't say for sure how much ammo is stored there. I have heard that it's an impressive amount!

[vortec1]

Oh bet your sniper rifle wont run dry! then grab those LAV25'S and Strykers then the Snipers life will bee happy!

[Gummerfan]

Thanks for the posts guys! That cabelas warehouse sounds like a dream for a team that wanted to do a little sniping! Load up a tractor trailer rig with food and water, and pull it up against the front of the store to block the front entrance. Set a ladder up on the truck to let you onto the roof. Once on the roof, it'll be easy to get into the building and stock up on ammo! You'll have to clear the building of any zeds first, but it's gotta be worth it. Then just get your best shots on the roof, and let 'em get to it! With that much ammo, they'd be able to clear out every zed in earshot, and have ammo left over! Then you could drive slowly through the city with the radio blasting, to lure zeds back to the kill zone! Nice way to start clearing 'em out!:evil:
Alternatively:
You're working at Cabela's (or insert gun store of your choice) when the news reports that riots and random murders are taking place all over the city. Your phone calls to the police are unanswered. All you gather from the tv or radio is that all hell is breaking loose. You remember from hurricane Katrina that looting is a strong possibility, so you secure the store, arm yourself and your coworkers, and take a defensive posture. Some of you go up to the roof to see what you can see. Sure enough, a truckload of armed yahoos rounds the corner and parks directly at the front door of the store. As the armed occupants emerge from the truck (doubtless emitting cries of "Yeee-Hahh!!", "Let's DO this!", or "THIS is what I'm talking about!") you give the order to the others on the roof: "Looters!! Let 'em have it!". You and your fellow coworkers rain down hot death on the would-be looters, thus saving the day!
Yep, there ARE uses for snipers! 9this IS on topic, right?)

We've got an armory about 5 miles from my place, but I've never been in there, so can't say for sure how much ammo is stored there. I have heard that it's an impressive amount!
[Maxwell Smart voice] "Ah, the old somehow abandoned yet conveniently fully-stocked armory trick!" [/Maxwell Smart voice] Get realistic! Look at the more plausible scenarios:
1. The unit in charge of the armory has been deployed to deal with the zombies or the looting and rioting, thus taking their equipment, weapons, and ammo with them.
2. Said unit had the foresight to leave a heavily armed security detachment to defend the armory from rioters and looters.
3. The members of the unit have deserted their posts and headed for the hills, but they were smart enough to take the goodies with them.
4. Other looters have gotten there first, and they aren't too keen on the idea of spreading the wealth around.
5. The unit has gone rogue and taken over the armory, and there's no way in hell they're letting you and your shopping cart anywhere near the place.

Does shooting holes in silly plans count as sniping?
Fearless Zombie Hunter, the other white meat!

[Darkness]

"One problem........."


"We Do NOT talk about killing LIVING HUMANS in this forum." :naughty:

[Gummerfan]

Apologies, ma'am.
However, in my defense, I must clarify that I was talking more about "humans being killed" than about "killing humans." I realize it does look that way, but I wasn't advocating it, just reminding people that it will inevitably happen.

[VideoJunkie]

Does shooting holes in silly plans count as sniping?
Fearless Zombie Hunter, the other white meat!


That's just a little pathetic, GOMER. If we found survivors at the Cabelas...GREAT! Your idea that all survivors would turn on one another is a little disturbing. Actually, it's a LOT disturbing! Wake up! If 9-11 taught us anything about Americans, it's that in times of real crisis, WE PULL TOGETHER! Don't you get that? Seriously, if it's to much for you to grasp let me know and I'll explain it in real small words...


As to the Armory being empty, have you done any research? From what I've been able to determine, the ARMORY will almost certainly have far more ammo and supplies than could be reasonably carried off. That's good, get it? Now, if we find soldiers at the armory...that's ALSO good! Are you getting this? Any survivor who isn't a total psychopath is a good thing...unless he's some pathetic coward with a defeatist attitiude, but those losers will probably off themselves with all their horded ammo! So, no worries there!

Instead of trying to be a ... ok, I was gonna say smartass, but I'm supposed to play nice...instead of trying to be an brainy posterior, why not try to actually ADD something to this discussion? Just a thought....you should try having one sometime....:loon:


You aren't the first TOASTER on this forum, and you won't be the last.

[Gummerfan]

Duuuuuuuuude! You actually think that all the survivors are going to pull together, hold hands, unite and sing a chorus of Kumbayah? :roll: You think everybody's gonna live out some Socialist ideal, throw open the doors and say "Y'all c'mon in! Hep yo' seff to all we got!" You've got one skewed view of human nature. You mention 9-11, what about the Rodney King riots? What about Katrina?

...why not try to actually ADD something to this discussion?
I AM trying add something: a healthy dose of reality. :)
I'm genuinely amused at the belief that everybody's gonna work together, share priceless commodities, lend a hand to the less prepared. It's gonna be the law of the jungle, especially in cities.
Meanwhile, I'll be snug in my well-hidden well-stocked forest retreat, keeping up with the news as best I can, chuckling at the thought of those whose "survival plan" consisted of "raid this, loot that, but don't hurt anybody who gets in the way!" Hope they remember to grab a stopwatch so they can measure their life expectancy.
Wake me when the cannibalism starts.
I am not a Toaster!
(nope, you're just toast)

[Darkness]

"I said, 'BACK ON TOPIC!' and I meant it! No More Fighting! No More Mud Slinging! No More Ego Bashing! Or I'm gonna start kicking arse and taking names later!! And THIS time it WON'T be the thread that gets 86ed!!"

[VideoJunkie]

Okay, back on topic.


Snipers on Z day!


What it comes down to is 2 simple questions. Answer them, and you've pretty much answered this threads question.

Question 1) Do you think it's a good idea to kill zombies? If yes, go on to question 2. If not, well, you'll never be convinced that snipers are going to be useful against zombies if you don't think we should be killing the zeds in the first place! So, you can skip to the follow up section.


Question 2) Do you think snipers, or people who can make headshots from more than a few yards away, would be a useful tool in the struggle to kill the zombies?...or RE-Kill them, or destroy them...you know what I mean!..

Followup) If you answered yest to both questions...Congratulations! You have an answer! If you answered no to either question...Congratulations! You have an answer! Either way is okay. Personally, I'm all about the zombie slaughter! I say we have to kill them all! We need to destroy the zombies or we'll never survive the outbreak! If given a choice, I'd rather shoot them from a roof or other position where they can't reach me. You see, I'm a little sensitive about being mauled by the dead! OUCH!!


If you answered no to the second question, I'd like to hear your reasons for it. Why don't you think it's better to kill the zeds from a distance. ...uh, HomeliteXL needn't answer here. We all know he just wants to get up close and personal with his CHAINSAW!!! But anyone else is welcome to post your thoughts here. I'm curious as to how you reached your answer.


If you answered no to the first question, I'd REALLY like to hear your alternative to killing the zeds! What's your longterm strategy? If you don't think we should be trying to wipe out the zeds, let us know WHY? Don't just say that it's pointless or would never work. We've been doing the impossible for centuries! Let us know what YOU propose instead of killing the zeds.

I hope Darkness will allow us a little wiggle room on the "keep it on topic" directive. I'm sure that if we keep things civil and our answers all tie into the central theme of this thread, the DARK LADY will be merciful....


Of course, I've been wrong before...


On a personal note...

Gummer, it's been fun exchanging shots with you! But it seems that in the interest of continued peace (AKA not pissing off DARKNESS) we'd better shake hands and let it go. Hey look! It's an olive branch!:) I'm willing to call it quits if you are, and I'm actually looking forward to you answering the questions I've posed here. If you'd rather not answer the questions, that's fine too. Either way, as far as I'm concerned, there are no hard feelings. I'd say we can call this one a draw and walk away. Whadda ya say?


See Darkness...I can play nice!!!:lol:

[VideoJunkie]

"I said, 'BACK ON TOPIC!' and I meant it! No More Fighting! No More Mud Slinging! No More Ego Bashing! Or I'm gonna start kicking arse and taking names later!! And THIS time it WON'T be the thread that gets 86ed!!"

Ouch!...not so loud...WE HEARD YOU!!!



grumble...grumble...come home from a bachelor:drinking: party with a headache and she starts yelling at the top of her lungs....how rude!...grumble ...

[Bob]

VJ

On my way to work today I was thinking about a conversation I had with my son over the weekend.
He was telling me about meeting a Chinese man who was attending the same university as he while in Germany.
This young man was from a city in China that is as large as New York but no had ever heard of.

This got me to thinking in terms of what it would be like just trying to get out the city when the population is that dense.
Perhaps Gommerfan is having trouble visualizing and understanding what we are talking about because he lives somewhere the population density is insanely high.

For example if he is an Indian living in Bombay or Mumbai as it is called now this would be understandable.
So many people live there even the shacks are multistory.
In a situation like this there could be no thinning of the herd.

The herd would be so massive thinning to facilitate escape would not be a viable option.
The construction in the areas of densest population is so shabby and weak the number of trapped individuals would be relatively small.
I don't know that stealth would be of any use in this situation either.
There would be Zeds EVERYWHERE.

In an area like this the only possible use for a sniper would be to prevent the "zombies to be" from climbing the fences as the rich were airlifted by chopper from their fenced homes.

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/3408/267565dharavislummumbaian8.jpg

This would also explain why he would say something like this a truckload of armed yahoos rounds the corner and parks directly at the front door of the store. As the armed occupants emerge from the truck (doubtless emitting cries of "Yeee-Hahh!!", "Let's DO this!", or "THIS is what I'm talking about!"
If he was an American he would know better than to make bigoted remarks like that.
I find this statement offensive.
But I am going to be the bigger man and just let it go.
Darkness does not want us calling names and slinging mud.

Staying on topic here my final word on Z-Day snipers is, it depends on the situation.
In some situations they would be invaluable and in some they would be useless.
In the Dawn of the Dead remake they could have thinned the herd thereby increasing their chances of escape.
In the affluent section of Mumbai they could keep the "zombie to be" climbers under control until the "rich people" could be airlifted out.
Once the swarms of Zeds started climbing they could not shoot fast enough to make a difference.
In the slums of Mumbai they would be absolutely useless.

Therefore in my capacity as Ruler of the Known Universe I pronounce "Everyone is Right"!

[VideoJunkie]

VJ
in Bombay or Mumbai as it is called now this would be understandable.
So many people live there even the shacks are multistory.
In a situation like this there could be no thinning of the herd.

The herd would be so massive thinning to facilitate escape would not be a viable option.
The construction in the areas of densest population is so shabby and weak the number of trapped individuals would be relatively small.
I don't know that stealth would be of any use in this situation either.
There would be Zeds EVERYWHERE.
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/3408/267565dharavislummumbaian8.jpg

Staying on topic here my final word on Z-Day snipers is, it depends on the situation.

Therefore in my capacity as Ruler of the Known Universe I pronounce "Everyone is Right"!

The great and powerful BOB has spoken! It is official! We're ALL right! Of course...some of us might be a little more right than others...:lol:

Seriously, what have I told you about posting things you know are gonna upset me! Especially when you're right! The disagreement was about the effectiveness of sniper fire in MILWAUKEE! Population Density about 6,000 per square mile. Now you bring up Mumbai. Population Density of about...wait for it...60,ooo per square mile. HOLY :poo:!!! That's a LOT of zeds! With ten times the population density, and such 'fragile' looking shelters, you'd have a higher percentage of the population turned in a shorter time! That would seriously alter the numbers we were using! In similar situation there, that would seem to mean you wouldn't expect the 15 to 17 thousand that we estimated could have made it to the mall. Instead you'd reasonably expect to face a mall going crowd of about 200,000. Actually, with crowds that dense and the type of architecture you'd pictured, I could argue(and you know I would) that the expected crowd should be more like a quarter of a million zeds! Who the hell has the time to shoot that many zombies! Also, with that sort of pop. density, the number of random stragglers would increase enough to pose a serious threat, even if you weren't already so obviously SCREWED!!!

In the final analysis, snipers would be useful for one thing. If I asked them nicely, maybe they'd be willing to shoot me in the head. Otherwise, I can't see anyway they could be helpful.


Why the hell are you posting this kind of depressing :poo: on a MONDAY? Like my Monday didn't already suck, you've got to post something like this!

Okay, in this city, or any other city with similar pop. density and construction, I'd have to agree with Gomerfan that sniping wouldn't help. I think we'd have to fall back to his early conclusion that we're all just screwed! Ten times the population density would make a hell of a difference! That's more than twice the pop. density of New York, with construction and other factors far less advantageous for survivors. In Mumbai, snipers need not apply. We'd be looking for chopper pilots. (must have own aircraft) and even then, where would you go? Not the place to be on Z Day!

[Necrowerx]

Boy, I missed all the fun, didn't I? :)

It seems to me that sniping is best done on the day after Z day. That is, assuming after a few touch and go years, we'd finally won the war, and the zombie population was waning rapidly.
It'd be fun - it'd be sport; a few enterprising people might even round up zombies into a corral of sorts, or a makeshift "town" and charge admission for the privilege to snipe them.
Welcome to "Trump's zombie shoot", $50 buys you an hour or two of sniping from the comfort and safety of a snipers roost while the zeds shamble around in the confined area below. How else could you actually shoot people in the head without legal ramifications? (Providing there are no legal ramifications - who knows? "Zombie rights" - it could happen).

I just wonder if some people might get so "addicted" to it that they start shooting regular people once the zeds are used up and then just claim they thought the victim was a zombie. :evil:

[VideoJunkie]

Boy, I missed all the fun, didn't I? :)

It seems to me that sniping is best done on the day after Z day. That is, assuming after a few touch and go years, we'd finally won the war, and the zombie population was waning rapidly.
It'd be fun - it'd be sport; a few enterprising people might even round up zombies into a coral of sorts, or a makeshift "town" and charge admission for the privilege to snipe them.
Welcome to "Trump's zombie shoot", $50 buys you an hour or two of sniping from the comfort and safety of a snipers roost while the zeds shamble around in the confined area below. How else could you actually shoot people in the head without legal ramifications? (Providing there are no legal ramifications - who knows? "Zombie rights" - it could happen).

I just wonder if some people might get so "addicted" to it that they start shooting regular people once the zeds are used up and then just claim they thought the victim was a zombie. :evil:

Did you miss the last post? I think I was very clear about this. Seriously, what have I told you about posting things you know are gonna upset me! Especially when you're right!

You people have to learn not to upset me like this on Mondays! I'm NOT saying you're right about some surviving whackadoo using the "Golly Barney, I'da plumb swore Aunt Bee was one a them there 'walkin dead' we hear'd about down ta Floyd's! I sure am sorry 'bout that fellers!" excuse. But I can absolutely see it happening! Damn, just what I needed. Something else to upset me on a Monday. Please try not to let it happen again!!!


Note - All celebrity voices were reproduced without permission of the Mayberry Town Council.

[MFISH618]

A secure, high position, perfect strategy. Your quarry doesn't spook, is probably slow.....take your time and save ammo.
What's wrong with snippers?

[Bob]

Have you read this thread???

[MFISH618]

Have you read this thread???

Yes, most of it....am I missing something? I just find it hard to get emotional about a hypothetical scenario that we all know shall never occur.
But dusting dead flesh eatters would be sport indeed.
The ''what's wrong '' question was retorical........my apologies.

[Gummerfan]

If he was an American he would know better than to make bigoted remarks like that.
I find this statement offensive.
His implication that you and I are moronic rednecks simply because we live in the deep South upsets me greatly.
He strikes me as the kind of individual who calls African Americans nigge*s.
But I am going to be the bigger man and just let it go.
Darkness does not want us calling names and slinging mud.
In the immortal words of MXC's Captain Tenneal, "Well, your WRONG!" :)
We were using DOTD '04, which is set in (or a suburb of) Milwaukee, as an example.
Personally, I live in a tiny little town in North Alabama. (that's the Heart of Dixie, can't get much Deeper South than that). We're a rural area, with plenty of forests, soybean and cotton fields, and low population. Think NOTLD, avec more bucolia.
And, for the record, (but not that anybody's business) I'm a white guy who is happily married to a beautiful, wonderful, incredible, black woman. (yeah, I said "black", she and my in-laws insist they aren't "African"-anything)
On Topic: Go ahead, snipe away.

[Bob]

Hmmm
Well as one redneck to another don't call me redneck, cracker. (humor intended)
"avec more bucolia" sounds like the language of surrender but Google could not identify the phrase.
You must not have been married very long or she was looking over your shoulder when you typed that.
None of my friends say that kind of stuff about their wives, of course most of us have been married since dirt was new.

I think I may have been misquoted?

(here comes the on topic part of the post)
The definitive answer to is sniping useful?
Wait for it
Wait for it
Here it is
Sometimes

[Bob]

MFISH618

I meant no harm, I will edit this with a real response in a bit.
I finally got my damn server stabilized and going home...

[MFISH618]

MFISH618

I meant no harm, I will edit this with a real response in a bit.
I finally got my damn server stabilized and going home...
Hey, no worries man. An edit is unnecissary. I took no offense.

[Bob]

Very Kool
My intent was to expound on my belief that there is nothing wrong with snipers other than in an area of extreme population density.

[MFISH618]

Very Kool
My intent was to expound on my belief that there is nothing wrong with snipers other than in an area of extreme population density.
Ahh, but the beauty of snipers is the ability to be selective in singling out your target. Snipers, by nature are expert marksman. One proficent in his ability can easily chose a target [dead of course] out of a crowd and neutrialize them.The whole concept behind the craft is stealth, selectivity.
A wild shot into a crowd is totally unacceptable.

[mattifikation]

Mumbai... hmm.

Snipe the zeds there with a chain gun. And a loooong chain.

[Necrowerx]

Did you miss the last post? I think I was very clear about this.


Clear about what VJ? I didn't see much connection between the preceding posts and my own.
I was speculating about after the zombie war is already won, not the beginning or during.

[VideoJunkie]

Clear about what VJ? I didn't see much connection between the preceding posts and my own.
I was speculating about after the zombie war is already won, not the beginning or during.

In my last post I was complaining about Bob posting things that were going to upset me, especially on a Monday.
Why the hell are you posting this kind of depressing :poo: on a MONDAY? Like my Monday didn't already suck, you've got to post something like this!
See, I was just giving Bob a hard time for coming up with something that I found disturbing. Then you come along and post something that was REALLY disturbing. So I thought it would be :lol: to keep complaining about this sort of stuff on a MONDAY! Just being silly! (I do that) So I posted this...Did you miss the last post? I think I was very clear about this.

You people have to learn not to upset me like this on Mondays! I'm NOT saying you're right about some surviving whackadoo using the "Golly Barney, I'da plumb swore Aunt Bee was one a them there 'walkin dead' we hear'd about down ta Floyd's! I sure am sorry 'bout that fellers!" excuse. But I can absolutely see it happening! Damn, just what I needed. Something else to upset me on a Monday. Please try not to let it happen again!!!


Note - All celebrity voices were reproduced without permission of the Mayberry Town Council. This was me being silly and going for the laugh...thanks for proving that I didn't pull off the whole "funny" thing.:-(

Hope that clears things up.

[Bob]

Upon reflection I believe the final statement regarding sniping on Z day is;
Every group serious about survival should have at least some long range capability.

[EvilWeasel35]

I reckon I'd be a pretty good sniper. I have a very steady hand and shooting feels quite natural to me, all it would take is a bit of practice on some zacks! I think it is always a good idea to have some hard back-up covering your guys if they are raiding or sweeping an area.

[Bob]

I will put the scope back on my AR and put you on a rooftop...

[craigzombie11]

Is sniping a good idea?? Your opinon will be heard.

[Dark Gale]

I would say it's a good idea, if you have a place where you could stay and snipe without the fear of a Zed sneaking up behind you.

[craigzombie11]

yeah i agree with you. but you would have to put a silencer on the rifle

[ZombieJesus13]

Yeah you dont want to atract more zeds than you already have.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

you don't need no darn silencer unless your hiding from other humans bcuz seriously i ain't worried bout no darn zed hearing me shooting his brain out all over the pavement in the big city or the woods out in the country. i'm a sniper by heart, though i've comandeered a Civil Enigneer job in the Air Force i still shoot my sniper rifles every weekend i grew up laying in trees on the ground and all that whoo hah, hell when it comes to playing CoD4, or even
L4D i carry the sniper bcuz thats just what i use, now i'm gonna stay i'm not nearly as good as the guys that go to sniper school bcuz they are trained far better than me, but my grandpa was a ww2 usmc sniper so i learned quite a few tricks even how to camo my rifle and make a ghillie suit good stuff huh.

[CAVU45]

CoD4 and L4D? Good tactical training there....If silencers are worthless, why do REAL snipers utilize them sometimes?

[bandits1]

Wow...lots and lots of real-life "snipers" on this board. Cool.

[kiltedninja]

I'm a marksman, definitely not a sniper. I can iron sight a shot out to 150yds with my Lee Enfield, I've never put a scope on it. I can hide and camoflauge myself, but it's not my best skillset.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

CoD4 and L4D? Good tactical training there....If silencers are worthless, why do REAL snipers utilize them sometimes?

lol not using it as training lol, just saying its a habit to use a sniper for me i have all my life.
they arent useless at least against other humans

[J Dub]

a good crew of snipers will keep your group pretty safe, if your group has done its part.
sniping imo is a term suited to ranges over 800 yards which very few people have the skill to shoot accurately at (i have not shot past 300yards).

urban tactical shots (sniping) primarily come from ranges under 100 yds with the avg in the 60 yd area. they are also an offensive role imo as 99% of the time the sharp shooters are not under fire.

the average shooter is fine at the range, but add adrenaline, chaos, explosions and other combat goodies to the mix. this average shooter who was shooting in the 10's all day at 100yds has problems holding steady for shots at 25yds.

sniping is a art imo. you won't see true sniping in the urban arena, but hopefully the skills many have hold true.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

I agree, but certain snipers actually do really good under pressure, liek int he movie shooter. i have a few buddies that went to sniper school and they said thats the most intense shiat they ever been thru so yea, its def an art and to master that art is like freaking crazy.

[CAVU45]

Christ on a crutch! You aren't a sniper! :x I can hit targets consistantly at 600 meters. That doesn't make me a sniper. I'm a marksman or a rifleman, not a sniper! Don't steal someone elses valor!

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

sniper marksman i dont care what you call it cavu your making a big deal over nothing. i constantly shoot sniper rifles at the shooting range on base, i'm tryin to enroll for the academy okay so relax man.

[bandits1]

I remember having this same dicussion with JakAttak. He insisted on calling himself a "sniper", too, qualified or not.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

im not classifying myself as a sniper thats just what i said okay, if you want to call it marksman fine, why is it being made into a big deal i wasnt implying anything or saying that i'm like a real professional sniper.

[CAVU45]

But that's exactely what you were implying by calling yourself a sniper. You didn't earn the title. You haven't put in the blood, sweat, and tears required. I would have thought someone in the military would understand that. That would be the same as me calling myself a fighter pilot because I have a private license. It just isn't true. Don't be a PX Ranger. Earn the title. There are enough frauds, wannabes, and mall ninjas running around without adding to the ranks.

Yeh, yeh. I know. Take it to PM. No need. It was said in the open and confronted in the open. I'll say no more onthe subject. Thanks for indulging.

[mattifikation]

I can shoot a gun, but I don't call myself a "soldier." Why? Because I'm not one.

Don't wear a title you didn't earn.

[Bob]

hmmm
Perhaps I will start calling myself "Master of the Known Universe".
You should all now start calling me "Master Bob".
All those who do not swear allegiance to me shall feel the wrath of Bob.
A bolt of lightning shall descend from the heavens and smite thee.

[thanos0341]

OK, to those of you that never served a day in your life in the military, expecially in my beloved Marine corps, never on your best day at the range, could you come close to being as good as a Marine sniper, SEAL sniper, Army SF sniper or even an Air Force SF sniper!

These men go thru some of the most grueling, intense military training in the world, to 'EARN" the title of "Sniper"!

Sure, some military snipers can kill you from a mile away & while that is extremely impressive, what is most impressive is that they have the skill, training & descipline to use stealth, the terrain & their training to slowly get within 100yds -50yds of their intended target without being spotted, send the rd downrange, kill their target & then make their way outta there w/o being seen exiting as well.

Snipers are also used to call in arty & airstrikes, gather intel on the enemy or just observe & report on their movements.

A snipers greatest fear is being stalked or hunted by a fellow enemy sniper for that is their greatest challenge, can they spot & shoot him before he has them in their scope's crosshairs.

Regular Marines can shoot man sized targets at 200yds/300yds & 500yds,I earned the coveted rifle expert badge 3 times & the sharpshooter badge once. I still would not dare to refer to myself as a "sniper".

There is so much more to being a sniper than being able to shoot from long distances.

I once read a story of 2 WWI snipers, a Russian & German, who were hunting each other, for days they stalked each other among the destroyed, rubble filled city, finally on the 4th day, the German sniper stood up from his snipers nest, assuming that the Russian sniper had either moved on or had been killed, a second later a bullet tore thru his cranium, killing him instantly.

The Russian sniper had literaly stayed completely still for 4 days straight in his sniper nest & defecated/urinated on himself, but he was not gonna move a millimeter & give his position away to the German sniper who was only 75yds away from him. That's what you call descipline & dedication & that is why military snipers are not only the most dangerous weapon in the battle field but a special & unique breed of man.

Marine snipers like to say:

"Why bother running, you'll only die tired".

Semper Fi

[J Dub]

that last quote was good :)

and besides, everyone knows the best sniper on record at the moment is a canadian. 2400 meters (1.5 miles) :evil:

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj123/jonwaite/motivational%20posters/headshotsmot.jpg

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

But that's exactely what you were implying by calling yourself a sniper. You didn't earn the title. You haven't put in the blood, sweat, and tears required. I would have thought someone in the military would understand that. That would be the same as me calling myself a fighter pilot because I have a private license. It just isn't true. Don't be a PX Ranger. Earn the title. There are enough frauds, wannabes, and mall ninjas running around without adding to the ranks.

Yeh, yeh. I know. Take it to PM. No need. It was said in the open and confronted in the open. I'll say no more onthe subject. Thanks for indulging.

and if i rember correctly i said i've applied for the acadmey, and i wasnt implying anything why is it everyone wants to take shiat so personal.

[J Dub]

and if i rember correctly i said i've applied for the acadmey, and i wasnt implying anything why is it everyone wants to take shiat so personal.


cramps? :lol:

interweeb ain't like being in person, much is often lost in translations so to speak.
one thing i do see as certain.

snipers are held in high regard by most, if not all here.

i think we are on the same team and should redirect our attention to those damn zombies :evil:

[CAVU45]

and if i rember correctly i said i've applied for the acadmey, and i wasnt implying anything why is it everyone wants to take shiat so personal.

You just don't get it. I don't understand why, but you just refuse to understand. :x Back to the subject at hand...

I agree that REAL sniper would be a definate plus in a zpaw. What better to cover your six than a REAL highly trained and motivated sniper. One could clear a nice path for a small team and help to keep theback door open for a withdrawal.

[J Dub]

one day if i'm fortunate enough or rich enough.

i would love to have m98 barrett a decent variable 10X + optic a 1000 yard range with just myself and mac or gunny (there are better out there, i just don't know of any off the top of my head).
i reckon i could spend a week 24/7 just shooting alone with those types, and barely grasp the skill/knowledge required for long range precision shooting.

don't know why i like the .338LM so much, its running $95.00/20 hornady's up here :x

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

Dude i'm done agruing eit you cavu this si are 2nd disagreement okay can we just call a truce to all this nonsense we all have diff opionions.

But anyway my friend who IS a REAL sniper would def be one of my guys that i'd take to cover my back during said zed war. assuming you can maybe get 5 or 6 snipers then hell all you need are a few guards with m-16s or m-4s and you got a pretty strong offense and defense

[CAVU45]

Dude i'm done agruing eit you cavu this si are 2nd disagreement okay can we just call a truce to all this nonsense we all have diff opionions.

But anyway my friend who IS a REAL sniper would def be one of my guys that i'd take to cover my back during said zed war. assuming you can maybe get 5 or 6 snipers then hell all you need are a few guards with m-16s or m-4s and you got a pretty strong offense and defense

I don't remember a first disagreement, but I'm not keeping score. This wasn't a disagreement or an argument. I, along with several others, were pointing out that you shouldn't claim to be something you aren't. Simple as that. Again, I would have thought that someone serving in uniform would understand that. After you get thru the school, and I sincerely hope you do, then you will be a sniper. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

A long range shooter would be advantageuos in a zpaw. Wrap that skill up with someone trained in stealth, recon and you have a absolutely indespensable member of the team.

[Slayer]

True Sniper Rifles will generally be rare on Z day, but there is a wealth of Hunting Rifles here in the US, and the most popular being 30/06. These rifles, scoped, sighted in, and with a good shooter, can drop zombies at 500 yards or so.

[Bob]

Blah Blah Blah
Beware the smiting is on it's way.

[J Dub]

True Sniper Rifles will generally be rare on Z day, but there is a wealth of Hunting Rifles here in the US, and the most popular being 30/06. These rifles, scoped, sighted in, and with a good shooter, can drop zombies at 500 yards or so.

true enough, the trained ones will have them and i doubt you would ever see them unless they allowed it.

most .30 cal rifles will be up to the task at hand when the zombies appear. 500 yards is doable but definitely not by all who shoot.
one of the big deals (jmo) of long range shooting is knowledge. it is not just the shot, it is what goes into making the shot. when you get past 400-500 yards, bullet drop compensation and all the other goodies start to pop up.

there is a wealth of knowledge involved with the role of the sniper. knowing your weapon system, its capabilities and yours takes time, skill and smarts. not to mention if you shoot .338LM a whole whack of cash :lol:

why i wish i was a rich man :)

[BeyondxSilence]

That would be very nice indeed. But, all of us have at least one fetish! :D just make sure that you have atleast one good extra sopt if it gets over run! :rock: