Snipers on Z day

[Reaper941]

I'm not sure if the Snipers code would work. 1 shot 1 kill, considering they're already technically dead. Just reanimated.

The problem is, you wouldn't need to be as stealthy as you would if fighting humans. Zombies might be able to detect us in other ways, possibly an enhanced sense of smell.

A Sniper I doubt would be of a great use, especially for headshots only. If I was going to snipe on an outbreak, I definitely wouldn't be picking off individuals. I'd use the rounds and make 'em count for something - Blow up car petrol (Gas) tanks, Conveniently placed explosives, etc and deal with a crowd of them at once.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

I'm not sure if the Snipers code would work. 1 shot 1 kill, considering they're already technically dead. Just reanimated.

The problem is, you wouldn't need to be as stealthy as you would if fighting humans. Zombies might be able to detect us in other ways, possibly an enhanced sense of smell.

A Sniper I doubt would be of a great use, especially for headshots only. If I was going to snipe on an outbreak, I definitely wouldn't be picking off individuals. I'd use the rounds and make 'em count for something - Blow up car petrol (Gas) tanks, Conveniently placed explosives, etc and deal with a crowd of them at once.

So your saying a group of snipers/ or marksmen wouldnt be useful what so ever?
What rock have you been living undesniper can get alot of easy kills from prolly an average distance of about 1000 yards or so while marksman can hit bout 600 yards, so just start picking off them heads then have a clean up crew to go thru afterwards and take out the last few stragglers. you position those snipers/marksmen in the right places around your outpost/base then you will have good protection 24/7.

[CAVU45]

I'm not sure if the Snipers code would work. 1 shot 1 kill, considering they're already technically dead. Just reanimated.

The problem is, you wouldn't need to be as stealthy as you would if fighting humans. Zombies might be able to detect us in other ways, possibly an enhanced sense of smell.

A Sniper I doubt would be of a great use, especially for headshots only. If I was going to snipe on an outbreak, I definitely wouldn't be picking off individuals. I'd use the rounds and make 'em count for something - Blow up car petrol (Gas) tanks, Conveniently placed explosives, etc and deal with a crowd of them at once.

There's no way to know how stealthy one would have to be in a ZPAW seeing how it's all speculative fiction. The current genre writing and film says that zombies can detect living humans through movement and sound. With that in mind I would think that stealth would be a highly prized skill.

Blowing up an auto gas tank? One step from impossible unless of course you're in Hollywood. It would take more than a bullet to do something like that. Strategically or "conveniently" placed explosives would require one to go amongst the threat to place them and then one would assume a lure would be needed to draw the threat into the ambush zone. And we won't go into how hard it may be to find the explosives and the skill it takes to set them.

Finally, zombies won't be the only threat in a zpaw. There will be plenty of two and four legged predators about that would need to be dealt with. A snipers' skill goes far beyond the ability to hit targets at long range. There's the ability to slip into an area undetected and gather accurate intelligence and then get out again.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

I have nothing but support for everything CAVu said, it's true when snipers go into do a job they arent always there to kill someone it's sometimes a intellegence gathering mission then come bak later and complete your task.

Snipers are far better trained soliders than you think, they are trained to not only conceal themselves and learn to move undeteced, shoot a sniper rifle at moving targets from great distances, how to set up the right points of attack....i could go on but you get the point, a sniper is almost like a one man army besides the fact he has a spotter which is even better cause now you have an m-16 or m-4 to back up the sniper.

Put these 2 in a tactical spot leave them there to gather intel pop a few heads move and repeat and your gonna do damage and learn some stuff.

VERY USEFUL....learn to appreciate the sniper and his spotter!!!!

[Reaper941]

So your saying a group of snipers/ or marksmen wouldnt be useful what so ever?
What rock have you been living undesniper can get alot of easy kills from prolly an average distance of about 1000 yards or so while marksman can hit bout 600 yards, so just start picking off them heads then have a clean up crew to go thru afterwards and take out the last few stragglers. you position those snipers/marksmen in the right places around your outpost/base then you will have good protection 24/7.

Assuming there's a clean route for 1000 yards that would be useful. But high caliber sniper rifles wouldn't be useful for picking off individuals. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, I'm just saying it would be complete overkill. It would be a lot more useful to use Snipers in a strategic position to for example, detonate explosives.

There's no way to know how stealthy one would have to be in a ZPAW seeing how it's all speculative fiction. The current genre writing and film says that zombies can detect living humans through movement and sound. With that in mind I would think that stealth would be a highly prized skill. True, but one can only assume. If you assume wrong, chances are it's too late in that scenario.


Blowing up an auto gas tank? One step from impossible unless of course you're in Hollywood. It would take more than a bullet to do something like that. Strategically or "conveniently" placed explosives would require one to go amongst the threat to place them and then one would assume a lure would be needed to draw the threat into the ambush zone. And we won't go into how hard it may be to find the explosives and the skill it takes to set them.
It's not impossible. If you were awaiting an ambush and had time to place explosives. If you were collapsing back from defences and had them placed already. It's a bit of a desperado move but it would work as a very very last resort. I'm not talking about C4 but a simple gas can or gas cylinder, hell - even a fire extinguisher.

Finally, zombies won't be the only threat in a zpaw. There will be plenty of two and four legged predators about that would need to be dealt with. A snipers' skill goes far beyond the ability to hit targets at long range. There's the ability to slip into an area undetected and gather accurate intelligence and then get out again.

I must admit, I never thought about this. It would be useful for gathering supplies but brute force would also work. Snipers can only carry a limited amount on their person, especially if they travel by foot - Whereas if you storm the place with a pickup - You'll be able to carry more.
The items would have to be small and high priority.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

Assuming there's a clean route for 1000 yards that would be useful. But high caliber sniper rifles wouldn't be useful for picking off individuals. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, I'm just saying it would be complete overkill. It would be a lot more useful to use Snipers in a strategic position to for example, detonate explosives.

Yes but we aren't talking like barret .50's we are talking m21 and smaller sniper rifles, or hunting rifles for marksman you dont need a 1000 yards all you need is a highly trained professional or a really really good marksmen and give them 200-300 yards and they can still work there magic trust me i've seen the stuff first hand.

[hotlead]

You need to talk to a few folks who've seen and felt this sort of stuff first hand before you start telling us that a scout/sniper team would be all but useless against slow moving head-shot only type badguys.

Using your snipers to set explosives hidden under gas tanks...........:doh::lol:

BTW, using .30cal rifles for longrange shooting isn't so that you can put .30cal holes in zombie heads, you need the higher ballistic coefficient of the larger, heavier bullet to maintain accuracy out that far.

A 5.56NATO M855 will get out to a few hundred yards pretty accurately, provided there's no wind, but any further than that and the little 62gr .22 will start to wander off target. The light bullet doesn't have a high enough BC to keep it's rotating mass steady and moving forward.

Even 7.62NATO M80 ball is pretty light at 147grs to go any further than 4 or 500yds accurately. Thats why we have heavier match rounds at 168grs and 175grs for sniper/designated marksman use.

[CAVU45]

Assuming there's a clean route for 1000 yards that would be useful. But high caliber sniper rifles wouldn't be useful for picking off individuals. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, I'm just saying it would be complete overkill. It would be a lot more useful to use Snipers in a strategic position to for example, detonate explosives.

But that's precisely what a snipers weapon is supposed to do. Engage individual targets at long range. As for detonating explosives, again, only in Hollywood.

True, but one can only assume. If you assume wrong, chances are it's too late in that scenario.

Yes, and it's best to always err on the side of caution. Making the assumption that the threat can only smell could lead to an early, violent, and very painful death.

It's not impossible. If you were awaiting an ambush and had time to place explosives. If you were collapsing back from defences and had them placed already. It's a bit of a desperado move but it would work as a very very last resort. I'm not talking about C4 but a simple gas can or gas cylinder, hell - even a fire extinguisher.

Methinks you've seen too many movies. In fact a bullet cannot cause a tank full of gas or any other liquid to explode. Shooting a fire extinguisher or a propane tank will only cause it to take off like a rocket.

Snipers can only carry a limited amount on their person, especially if they travel by foot - Whereas if you storm the place with a pickup - You'll be able to carry more. The items would have to be small and high priority.

Again, you fail to realize the roll of the sniper. It isn't to scroiunge for supplies but to engage indivisual threats and gather needed informaiton for a follow on force. Also, storming a building in a truck with guns blazing without accurate intel or an assault plan is a sure way to commit mass suicide.

[kiltedninja]

Alright, I can carry a 50 pound backpack all day long, I'm 17 years old, and while I'm in good shape, I have a helluva lot of growing left to do. Still, that's a third of my weight, a little more in fact. A trained soldier could carry more than that.

A bullet cannot ignite a gas tank.

A truck full of people storming a building is a stupid idea.

Long range threats are only threats if they shoot back, or if there's about a hundred of them, and your shelter can't support that many bodies against it.

[mattifikation]

Sweet video, relevant somewhat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVZUVsHsWis

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

Alright, I can carry a 50 pound backpack all day long, I'm 17 years old, and while I'm in good shape, I have a helluva lot of growing left to do. Still, that's a third of my weight, a little more in fact. A trained soldier could carry more than that.


Are duffel bags we carry with all the stuff we put in it for deployment is about 80lbs maybe a lil less or lil more but all i know is in basic we had to hike that shiat for about 5 miles it wasnt fun but it wasnt hard either.

So like kilted is pointing out soliders can easily carry alot of weight running may not be very easy or fun lol but hey soliders do what we have to do.

Gas tank is impossbile i've tried doing it myself for the hell of it alot of movie antics don't work in the real world my friend as both cavu and kilted have pointed out. The lil molotov cocktails they don't work nearly as well like in the movies and video games. things are just differnt in the real world.

I was talking to my friend in Afghan last night he is a Marine Sniper i brouhgt up some of the ideas you mentioned man and he siad that none of that stuff happens or would be logical he siad that they normaly set up a group of snipers around a town and gather intel then eventually will pick there target off and any bad guys who are interfereing or hindering the mission otherwise its get in, gather intel, pop a few heads, get out....clean as a whistle.

So after all the facts and nice lil stories and tad bits of info cavu, kilted, hotlead and i have given you do you still think snipers are useless???

[Reaper941]

Yes but we are talking like barret .50's we are talking m21 and smaller sniper rifles, or hunting rifles for marksman you dont need a 1000 yards all you need is a highly trained professional or a really really good marksmen and give them 200-300 yards and they can still work there magic trust me i've seen the stuff first hand.

I'm not doubting you, I agree - But there would still need to be a clean line of sight.

You need to talk to a few folks who've seen and felt this sort of stuff first hand before you start telling us that a scout/sniper team would be all but useless against slow moving head-shot only type badguys.

Using your snipers to set explosives hidden under gas tanks...........:doh::lol:


I know what I'm talking about, ta. I'm not sure what type of Snipers you're used to seeing, but snipers in UK military are mainly nowadays used at long range to blow up landmines, Generally.

Hence shooting explosive items.


But that's precisely what a snipers weapon is supposed to do. Engage individual targets at long range. As for detonating explosives, again, only in Hollywood. Not true, they are used to detonate Landmines and IED's.


Yes, and it's best to always err on the side of caution. Making the assumption that the threat can only smell could lead to an early, violent, and very painful death. I didn't say they could only smell, I said they might have an advanced sense of smell aswell as regular sight and hearing.



Methinks you've seen too many movies. In fact a bullet cannot cause a tank full of gas or any other liquid to explode. Shooting a fire extinguisher or a propane tank will only cause it to take off like a rocket. I'm not a scientist, but getting hit by a gas tank (i.e propane) flying along like a rocket, you're gonna get hurt. Ever done welding? Knock the regulator off for the same effect.



Again, you fail to realize the roll of the sniper. It isn't to scroiunge for supplies but to engage indivisual threats and gather needed informaiton for a follow on force. Also, storming a building in a truck with guns blazing without accurate intel or an assault plan is a sure way to commit mass suicide. Again, no. But gathering information. Can you think of any information that would be held by rotting corpses? Nor can I. The best way to utilize this role would be picking up supplies.

Alright, I can carry a 50 pound backpack all day long, I'm 17 years old, and while I'm in good shape, I have a helluva lot of growing left to do. Still, that's a third of my weight, a little more in fact. A trained soldier could carry more than that. I'm not denying that I can carry a good weight around, but there's one thing you're not thinking about. Can you move silently while carrying a lot more than 50 lbs?


A truck full of people storming a building is a stupid idea.
I'm not talking about storming it in the same sense you are. Move in quietly, gather supplies while the truck waits outside - Get the supplies back out and onto the truck.


Long range threats are only threats if they shoot back, or if there's about a hundred of them, and your shelter can't support that many bodies against it. True.

Are duffel bags we carry with all the stuff we put in it for deployment is about 80lbs maybe a lil less or lil more but all i know is in basic we had to hike that shiat for about 5 miles it wasnt fun but it wasnt hard either.

So like kilted is pointing out soliders can easily carry alot of weight running may not be very easy or fun lol but hey soliders do what we have to do. I've pointed out, it's not difficult - but try doing it while moving silently and quickly. It's not AS easy.


Gas tank is impossbile i've tried doing it myself for the hell of it alot of movie antics don't work in the real world my friend as both cavu and kilted have pointed out. The lil molotov cocktails they don't work nearly as well like in the movies and video games. things are just differnt in the real world. Yeah. It's due to physics. Molotov Cocktails do work though - They don't "explode" in a grenade style, but they do shower the area in fire.


I was talking to my friend in Afghan last night he is a Marine Sniper i brouhgt up some of the ideas you mentioned kid and he siad that none of that stuff happens or would be logical he siad that they normaly set up a group of snipers around a town and gather intel then eventually will pick there target off and any bad guys who are interfereing or hindering the mission otherwise its get in, gather intel, pop a few heads, get out....clean as a whistle.
Yes, I know the role of a sniper. But at the minute Snipers aren't required to despatch a "head zombie" and it's very unlikely that they would be needed to in the future. Zombie's won't have ranks.. If they do, Hell, I'll eat my kilt.


So after all the facts and nice lil stories and tad bits of info cavu, kilted, hotlead and i have given you do you still think snipers are useless???


I never stated that Snipers are useless in the military, they're very valuable assets. But in a Zombie environment they would have different roles to fulfil, and if it was the choice between a trained Marksman with a g36c and a Sniper with a Barrett .50.. I know who I would pick.

[CAVU45]

Not true, they are used to detonate Landmines and IED's.

Land mines, yes. IED's, I'm skeptical about. Many IED's are old artillery shells or other cobbled together devices. Most are electrically triggered. Hitting an electrical trigger will do no good at all except ruin the chances of the IED actually exploding. C4 and other similar explosives won't go bang due to a bullet.

I'm not a scientist, but getting hit by a gas tank (i.e propane) flying along like a rocket, you're gonna get hurt. Ever done welding? Knock the regulator off for the same effect.

So then you agree that fuel tanks won't explode. I've done some welding and do have some experience with tanks of that sort. Getting hit by one will doubtful hurt a zombie. Knock it off its feet, perhaps even break a leg. But it won't stop the creature.

Again, no. But gathering information. Can you think of any information that would be held by rotting corpses? Nor can I. The best way to utilize this role would be picking up supplies.

You again appear to assume that zombies would be the only threat. I doubt that would be the case. Wouldn't it be advantageous to know the layout of a town or village before entering? It would be helpful to know if it's only inhabited by zombies and how many there are. If it's inhabited by a live hostile group it would be in the groups best interest to know how many hostiles there are and how they're equipped. What are the obstacles between the group and the target? It would be quite a surprise to roll up a street only to find it blocked by an old traffic accident or other blockade. Tthat could leave one in a rather sticky situation. The sniper could pass that information along before a group heads in.

I'm not talking about storming it in the same sense you are. Move in quietly, gather supplies while the truck waits outside - Get the supplies back out and onto the truck.

Have you ever tried quietly rolling into a town and gathering supplies? Loading a truck isn't exactely a venture known for silence. People make noise. Lots of people make lots of noise. Better to know what one is facing before heading into a town than to roll in, quietly or otherwise, and find out the hard way.

As for UK snipers. I'm sure they're employed in ways other than the shooting of land mines.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

I never stated that Snipers are useless in the military, they're very valuable assets. But in a Zombie environment they would have different roles to fulfil, and if it was the choice between a trained Marksman with a g36c and a Sniper with a Barrett .50.. I know who I would pick.



Here's my thing they dont need a total clear line of sight, and we arent talking barret .50 cals thats overkill give them a m21 or other semi auto sniper or heck a hunting rifle and honestly I'll pick them over your g36c but thats because i'm crazy and prefer to have that distance then of course you bound to have a pistol for close up zeds.

[hotlead]

I suppose if we gave away our freedoms, including the RKBA, we probably wouldn't know much about scout/snipers, designated marksmen or the tools they use either.

Let's go easy on him fellas.

[kiltedninja]

\
Yes, I know the role of a sniper. But at the minute Snipers aren't required to despatch a "head zombie" and it's very unlikely that they would be needed to in the future. Zombie's won't have ranks.. If they do, Hell, I'll eat my kilt.

I never stated that Snipers are useless in the military, they're very valuable assets. But in a Zombie environment they would have different roles to fulfil, and if it was the choice between a trained Marksman with a g36c and a Sniper with a Barrett .50.. I know who I would pick.

Moving quietly isn't the hard part, it's moving quickly, given a choice of a G36C and a Barret M82, I'd take the G36C. the .50 cal is just too much bullet for me.

If the zombies march into cities in rank and file, I'll eat my kilt too I'll even put tabasco sauce on it.:lol:

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

I suppose if we gave away our freedoms, including the RKBA, we probably wouldn't know much about scout/snipers, designated marksmen or the tools they use either.

Let's go easy on him fellas.

I'll leave it where i left it and yes not everybody knows as much as some others i'll be good now lol.

[kiltedninja]

Well...tacos rule.

I think that a sniper, acting in a group, or individually is a useful person, someone who can shoot at long distance, sneak about doing crazy shit, and collecting intel on stuff.

And the intel thing could be useful for going into urban settlements, where the sniper could get numbers on how many zombies, choke points, strategic defence points, good areas for supply collection, etc...

There's always intel to be gathered.

[MWolfe]

I suppose if we gave away our freedoms, including the RKBA, we probably wouldn't know much about scout/snipers, designated marksmen or the tools they use either.

Let's go easy on him fellas.
I'll leave it where i left it and yes not everybody knows as much as some others i'll be good now lol.

The two of you keyboard commandos can stop stroking each others E-penis now and cease with the veiled insults..
Please?

From a professionals standpoint you two don't impress me with your "knowledge" by any stretch of the imagination.
roughly 98% of the posts in this topic are at best basic common knowledge or at worst just flat out wrong and being touted as "factual".

Such as this lovely example:
Gas tank is impossbile i've tried doing it myself
This makes me even less impressed kiddo.
Folks at least pretend to do research before you start belittling others.
Yes, yes you can ignite a gas tank, even .45 ammo can do it.

With regular standard ammo?
NO NOT without alot divine intervention.

With Incendiary ammo? Oh hell yes.
Yes, there is .45 caliber incendiary ammo and yes we have tested such incendiary ammo from 9mm on up at Picatinny and yes you can ignite most fuel tanks (you have to do your own research in which types caused us the most problems).
In fact if you folks have the FFL for it you yourselves can purchase such ammo (state laws depending) but it's not going to be cheap, but after "Z-day" who'd care about the licensing or cost? :)

The whole detonating landmines, IEDs and fuel tanks debate was humorous as well as well as informative on just who has no clue.

For those who think sniper teams don't or cannot do it, well your seriously wrong, not only do sniper teams do it but engineer units have been assigned that P.O.S. over hyped by Hollywood and ignorant fanbois Barret .50 M107 for that very purpose.
(Barret .50s -pick one- and "is a long range precision sniping weapon" will never be used in the same sentence by sane professionally trained snipers with a straight face, in fact you'll most likely get the same reaction as any gun nut would insisting a Desert Eagle is a viable combat sidearm.)

Again basic research will tell you that the MK211 round is being used on a daily basis over in the sandbox to do the very thing some of you insist can't be done.

That round will make any landmine, IED and gas tank (not to mention keyboard commando egos) "go away" in a loud and flashy spectacle that everyone in the area will appreciate.
The round is common among the American teams as it not only is it more accurate then the other .50 rounds used in such sniper weapon systems but is authorized for use to US forces for ALL targets (and yes we use them on people).

So please stop with the veiled insults as some of us have not only forgotten more then some of you will ever know on such military subjects but have been through more combat then you'd like to imagine being in and us to remember.

The only way folks learn is to question.
I hope to learn more about the possible virus "zombies" not the raised from the grave b.s. B-movie zombie and It would be nice to do so without the open and veiled insults being flung around by some of the folks here.
I have no problem passing on what know and can pass on (OPSEC -OPerational SECurity allowing) if folks are decent about it.
I do have a problem with folks being insulting to others about things they themselves obviously don't know, just "think" they do.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

The two of you keyboard commandos can stop stroking each others E-penis now and cease with the veiled insults..
Please?

From a professionals standpoint you two don't impress me with your "knowledge" by any stretch of the imagination.
roughly 98% of the posts in this topic are at best basic common knowledge or at worst just flat out wrong and being touted as "factual".

Such as this lovely example:

This makes me even less impressed kiddo.
Folks at least pretend to do research before you start belittling others.
Yes, yes you can ignite a gas tank, even .45 ammo can do it.

With regular standard ammo?
NO NOT without alot divine intervention.

With Incendiary ammo? Oh hell yes.
Yes, there is .45 caliber incendiary ammo and yes we have tested such incendiary ammo from 9mm on up at Picatinny and yes you can ignite most fuel tanks (you have to do your own research in which types caused us the most problems).
In fact if you folks have the FFL for it you yourselves can purchase such ammo (state laws depending) but it's not going to be cheap, but after "Z-day" who'd care about the licensing or cost? :)

The whole detonating landmines, IEDs and fuel tanks debate was humorous as well as well as informative on just who has no clue.

For those who think sniper teams don't or cannot do it, well your seriously wrong, not only do sniper teams do it but engineer units have been assigned that P.O.S. over hyped by Hollywood and ignorant fanbois Barret .50 M107 for that very purpose.
(Barret .50s -pick one- and "is a long range precision sniping weapon" will never be used in the same sentence by sane professionally trained snipers with a straight face, in fact you'll most likely get the same reaction as any gun nut would insisting a Desert Eagle is a viable combat sidearm.)

Again basic research will tell you that the MK211 round is being used on a daily basis over in the sandbox to do the very thing some of you insist can't be done.

That round will make any landmine, IED and gas tank (not to mention keyboard commando egos) "go away" in a loud and flashy spectacle that everyone in the area will appreciate.
The round is common among the American teams as it not only is it more accurate then the other .50 rounds used in such sniper weapon systems but is authorized for use to US forces for ALL targets (and yes we use them on people).

So please stop with the veiled insults as some of us have not only forgotten more then some of you will ever know on such military subjects but have been through more combat then you'd like to imagine being in and us to remember.

The only way folks learn is to question.
I hope to learn more about the possible virus "zombies" not the raised from the grave b.s. B-movie zombie and It would be nice to do so without the open and veiled insults being flung around by some of the folks here.
I have no problem passing on what know and can pass on (OPSEC -OPerational SECurity allowing) if folks are decent about it.
I do have a problem with folks being insulting to others about things they themselves obviously don't know, just "think" they do.

wow dude i really don't care what you think but don't jump into the middle and start insulting people man your new so how about being nice so people like you, and i'm in the air force so i know what i'm talking about. and when i said gas tank i dint mean lil plastic ones i was talking about the big metal one ya know use your head and think. Learn respect KID!

[kiltedninja]

Considering my dad's an intelligence officer for the Army, he deals with people who do the job, snipers, special forces, everyone. Sure there's stuff he can't talk about, but certain info he can share. And he constantly talks about military this or military that. And he's on his third tour in Iraq right now, so if he doesn't know what he's talking about, then the last 15 years of his life have been a waste of time.

I'd suggest YOU get all the facts on things before you talk, you're a sniper right? Then gathering intel on anything should be your job after all. A huge majority of the people here are or were soldiers.

You're not like that fake guy who said he's a Royal Marine Sniper at an American embassy in Somalia are you?:lol:

[Reaper941]

wow dude i really don't care what you think but don't jump into the middle and start insulting people man your new so how about being nice so people like you, and i'm in the air force so i know what i'm talking about. and when i said gas tank i dint mean lil plastic ones i was talking about the big metal one ya know use your head and think. Learn respect KID!

Wow, aren't you a complete dick. Congratulations on showing how far your head is up your own ass. Next time we'll buy you a glass stomach so you can see where you're going.

He didn't start insulting people, as far as I'm aware you did. He merely pointed out that it IS possible, when you're stating it's not. You're in the air force? Congratulations - You know how to sit on your ass.

Considering my dad's an intelligence officer for the Army, he deals with people who do the job, snipers, special forces, everyone. Sure there's stuff he can't talk about, but certain info he can share. And he constantly talks about military this or military that. And he's on his third tour in Iraq right now, so if he doesn't know what he's talking about, then the last 15 years of his life have been a waste of time.

I'd suggest YOU get all the facts on things before you talk, you're a sniper right? Then gathering intel on anything should be your job after all. A huge majority of the people here are or were soldiers.

You're not like that fake guy who said he's a Royal Marine Sniper at an American embassy in Somalia are you?:lol:

:loon:

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

Wow, aren't you a complete dick. Congratulations on showing how far your head is up your own ass. Next time we'll buy you a glass stomach so you can see where you're going.

He didn't start insulting people, as far as I'm aware you did. He merely pointed out that it IS possible, when you're stating it's not. You're in the air force? Congratulations - You know how to sit on your ass.



:loon:

Yea just bcuz i'm in the Air Force doesn't mean i sit on my ass, and yes he insulted me and hot lead yet again another kid talking smack for no reason, LEARN respect, it's one thing to debate something and antoher to insult them like you just did to me which honestly really pisses me off i can not stand disrespectful people like you and Mwolfe. So when you learn how to play nice and not be a jacka$$ then you can talk. Oh and don't insult the Air Force you don't know what we do ro how we do it. I hope you know we are overseas just as much as the army and marines so back up in less you know your facts again!!!!!

[MWolfe]

wow dude i really don't care what you think but don't jump into the middle and start insulting people man your new so how about being nice so people like you, and i'm in the air force so I know what i'm talking about. and when i said gas tank i dint mean lil plastic ones I was talking about the big metal one ya know use your head and think. Learn respect KID!

:roll: you can dish it but not take eh kid.
I'm retired military and so far you seem to be a kid doing nothing but talking smack to others.
Folks can say anything they want about me or too me, my skin is abit more thick then that I just don't care of personal opinions about me especially from folks who like to insult more then they inform and some of you folks did little more but sling vield insults in your posts then inform others who were just simply asking questions.

I've been called far worse by far more people of influence so your wasting your time with the vitriol.

You already demonstrated the your comlete lack of knowledge and now just making it worse as a plastic fuel tank would not cause a mk211 to detonate at all and unless that metal fuel tank is of heavy guage metal any incendiary ammo above 9mm will be penetrated and and ignite the fuel and the large heavy tanks would be easily dealt with via the Mk211 round.

Now if you are really were that knowledgeable you would have mentioned about my post before the fact the fuel tank needs a certain air ratio inside to actually ignite otherwise multiple rounds might be needed to ignite the fuel vapor escaping from the previous penetration instead of wasting the post on all that vitriol and plastic tank.

Being in the airforce doesn't automatically mean you have knowledge of sniper teams and their deployment much less their weapon capabilities.

Length of membership in a forum does not equate to depth of knowledge kiddo.
If you are in the Airforce,then you should know respect is earned not just given away or else you are seen as nothing but a rank and not as respected leader the troops under you need and deserve so nice try.
Now please either show the knowledge and let the thread continue or ignore and move on and let the thread continue.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

:roll: you can dish it but not take eh kid.
I'm retired military and so far you seem to be a kid doing nothing but talking smack to others.
Folks can say anything they want about me or too me, my skin is abit more thick then that I just don't care of personal opinions about me especially from folks who like to insult more then they inform and some of you folks did little more but sling vield insults in your posts then inform others who were just simply asking questions.

I've been called far worse by far more people of influence so your wasting your time with the vitriol.

You already demonstrated the your comlete lack of knowledge and now just making it worse as a plastic fuel tank would not cause a mk211 to detonate at all and unless that metal fuel tank is of heavy guage metal any incendiary ammo above 9mm will be penetrated and and ignite the fuel and the large heavy tanks would be easily dealt with via the Mk211 round.

Now if you are really were that knowledgeable you would have mentioned about my post before the fact the fuel tank needs a certain air ratio inside to actually ignite otherwise multiple rounds might be needed to ignite the fuel vapor escaping from the previous penetration instead of wasting the post on all that vitriol and plastic tank.

Being in the airforce doesn't automatically mean you have knowledge of sniper teams and their deployment much less their weapon capabilities.

Length of membership in a forum does not equate to depth of knowledge kiddo.
If you are in the Airforce,then you should know respect is earned not just given away or else you are seen as nothing but a rank and not as respected leader the troops under you need and deserve so nice try.
Now please either show the knowledge and let the thread continue or ignore and move on and let the thread continue.

Listen I'm not on here itearn YOUR respect I'm here to discuss and debate the topics given, and when you and others like reaper jump on here and shove insults down are throat for no f@#kin reason it's disrespectful, and i don't like it, I know plaenty man I have plenty of friends that have done this or that. I have friend in afghan right now he is a marine sniper i know my knowledge. All i ask is you stop bein a shovnistic prick and just go along with the topic not tell us to stop jacking each other off, and i'm not a kid no matter what you think, I joined the Air Force to serve and protect my country i'm pretty sure that makes me a man for my decision. Honestly you prolly do know more than me but you don't ahve to be a dick about it and try to tell everybody they don't know jack shiat. If your gonna try and tell us we are wrong that's fine but be RESPECTFUL about it. You should know this if your prior military, it's all about the respect. So unless you wish to cause anymore issues or hinder the thread why don't you just get off bcuz I'm done agruing with you and Reaper.

[J Dub]

i see red bottoms when Darkness arrives :evil:

i'm no sniper but i can hold my own. give me a zombie inside 200 yards i'll leave him with a neck stump with irons out of my socom.

but i daydream of those big .338LM and .50bmg's. i also daydream of having lots of money and having the time learn:)

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

i see red bottoms when Darkness arrives :evil:

i'm no sniper but i can hold my own. give me a zombie inside 200 yards i'll leave him with a neck stump with irons out of my socom.

but i daydream of those big .338LM and .50bmg's. i also daydream of having lots of money and having the time learn:)

J i don't want a spanking hahaha
Yea i daydream to but that stuff don't come real unless you make it real.

[Reaper941]

Yea just bcuz i'm in the Air Force doesn't mean i sit on my ass, and yes he insulted me and hot lead yet again another kid talking smack for no reason, LEARN respect, it's one thing to debate something and antoher to insult them like you just did to me which honestly really pisses me off i can not stand disrespectful people like you and Mwolfe. So when you learn how to play nice and not be a jacka$$ then you can talk. Oh and don't insult the Air Force you don't know what we do ro how we do it. I hope you know we are overseas just as much as the army and marines so back up in less you know your facts again!!!!!

Here's a better idea. Earn it.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

Here's a better idea. Earn it.

Dude i'm pretty sure i don't have to earn the respect of 2 disrespectful people, you disrespect me why would i even want to earn respect from you, now for the last time i'm done with you 2 get back to topic.


What would be better a ruger mini 14 or more of a m40a3(bolty)

[MWolfe]

Considering my dad's an intelligence officer for the Army, he deals with people who do the job, snipers, special forces, everyone. Sure there's stuff he can't talk about, but certain info he can share. And he constantly talks about military this or military that. And he's on his third tour in Iraq right now, so if he doesn't know what he's talking about, then the last 15 years of his life have been a waste of time.

I'd suggest YOU get all the facts on things before you talk, you're a sniper right? Then gathering intel on anything should be your job after all. A huge majority of the people here are or were soldiers.

You're not like that fake guy who said he's a Royal Marine Sniper at an American embassy in Somalia are you?:lol:
:-(
Dear god another one.
Just because your dad is in the military it doesn't mean you know much anything beyond the basic he tells you and It thankfully seems your dad considers OPSEC far more important then telling you OPSEC sensitives just so you can impress the internetz.

So please stop with the juvenile "my dad this, my dad that", either you personally have the knowledge and have the experience or you don't It's that simple, don't try passing the little you are told as total knowledge on the subject.

Instead of some folks spewing vitriol why not fill in the common knowledge (but non OPSEC) blanks I've left out or are folks more knowledgeable on insults then on subject at hand?

If you folks are going to be insulting to others don't expect me to be anything but the same to you, you only get what you give in life and some folks were deliberately belittling while spewing flat out wrong information and passing it off as fact to others who were only asking.

If you can't be civil then at least have the knowledge to back up the attitude.
Please. :)

[CityOfChicago]

What would be better a ruger mini 14 or more of a m40a3(bolty)

Seriously? The Remington, hands down. It's a purpose-built sniper rifle in 7.62x51. The Ruger is a ranch/varmint rifle in 5.56. If you have real snipers, you gotta have real sniper weapons.

As to the value of snipers, their value is obvious. But their usage depends on the size of your force and/or the terrain/compound you are holding.

If I had a large group (over 50 people, perhaps) I would enjoy having purpose-specific snipers. I'd have ther personnel to spare for such specific usages. If I was holding a compound, I'd want them to keep the zeds at a distance. The last thing you want are zombie sappers at your door while you're trying to zap them all. It's far simpler to position one sniper and spotter on each side of a fortified compounds roofline and let them pick zeds off nice and slowly at 1000 yards. If I had a smaller force, or was required to keep my group mobile, I'd rather have designated marksmen - they are deadly accurate shooters at distance and do so with battle rifles.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

Seriously? The Remington, hands down. It's a purpose-built sniper rifle in 7.62x51. The Ruger is a ranch/varmint rifle in 5.56. If you have real snipers, you gotta have real sniper weapons.

As to the value of snipers, their value is obvious. But their usage depends on the size of your force and/or the terrain/compound you are holding.

If I had a large group (over 50 people, perhaps) I would enjoy having purpose-specific snipers. I'd have ther personnel to spare for such specific usages. If I was holding a compound, I'd want them to keep the zeds at a distance. The last thing you want are zombie sappers at your door while you're trying to zap them all. It's far simpler to position one sniper and spotter on each side of a fortified compounds roofline and let them pick zeds off nice and slowly at 1000 yards. If I had a smaller force, or was required to keep my group mobile, I'd rather have designated marksmen - they are deadly accurate shooters at distance and do so with battle rifles.

Thnks for chicago for your input, thanks for being respectful to unlike some other people who just don't know when to shut up. Yea i remeber reading over the ruger that it is a semi auto but i could def see it being used as a varmint rifle. I love the remington m40a3 it's just an all around good gun :)

[mattifikation]

*giggles*

It's like somebody smashed a beehive in a day care up in this joint.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

*giggles*

It's like somebody smashed a beehive in a day care up in this joint.

Sadly i agree, but i'm trying to be civilized and get it worked out but disrespect is a hard one to handle.

[mattifikation]

It's only the Internet, folks. There's a pretty good chance that every last one us is actually an overweight, middle aged man in his mother's basement pretending to be half his age to pick up younger women online.

Er. I mean. There's a pretty good chance that every last one of you guys is all that stuff. Not me.. No, I really am 26 and live on my own. Erm. Heh. *cough.*

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

It's only the Internet, folks. There's a pretty good chance that every last one us is actually an overweight, middle aged man in his mother's basement pretending to be half his age to pick up younger women online.

Er. I mean. There's a pretty good chance that every last one of you guys is all that stuff. Not me.. No, I really am 26 and live on my own. Erm. Heh. *cough.*

lol okay matt think of yourself however you plz lol. i'm not 40 i'm 38 err.... i mean 19 lol. no for real i live in a dorm on Ellsworth AFB for 2 months now.

[CityOfChicago]

Thnks for chicago for your input, thanks for being respectful to unlike some other people who just don't know when to shut up. Yea i remeber reading over the ruger that it is a semi auto but i could def see it being used as a varmint rifle. I love the remington m40a3 it's just an all around good gun :)

No sweat.

The Ruger is a semi-auto - and a damn fine rifle. Many police departments use it as a patrol rifle. The name Mini-14 is derived from the fact that it's a smaller version of the venerable M-14 - itself an extremely capable rifle that has been well adapted for use as a sniper rifle. Ruger also makes a Mini-30, which is a 7.63x39mm version.

With the number of stocks now available for the Mini, I'd be happy using it in place of an M4.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

No sweat.

The Ruger is a semi-auto - and a damn fine rifle. Many police departments use it as a patrol rifle. The name Mini-14 is derived from the fact that it's a smaller version of the venerable M-14 - itself an extremely capable rifle that has been well adapted for use as a sniper rifle. Ruger also makes a Mini-30, which is a 7.63x39mm version.

With the number of stocks now available for the Mini, I'd be happy using it in place of an M4.

I've read that it has decent power, good rate of fire. how is it's stopping power though just curious?

[CityOfChicago]

Which one? the -14 or -30? The -14 uses the same round as the M4, the -30 the same round as the AK-47.

The most common complaint about the 5.56 is it's apparent lack of stopping power. These complaints come mostly from the military, and is directly attributable to the type of ammmo beinng used. The SS109 (green-tip) ammo needs to be traveling at near 3000fps to split up in soft tissue. The M4, with it's 14.5" barrel, doesnt generate enough velocity to achieve this at any distance (100 yards I think I read once). The bullet will enter and exit "cleanly" and cause little soft tissue damage other than the hole. Most of the ammo "problems" have been "corrected" with heavier, match-grade ammo. Also, the ammo used by many LE agencies are designed to fragment more easily to decrease penetration (through offenders and/or walls).

The 7.62 is a beast. While not having the ability to travel the distances that the 5.56 can, it's effects are quite different. I saw a demonstration once where a concrete block (with the two hollow holes in the center used for building walls and such) was placed on the seat of a car and then shot through the closed car door. The 5.56 penetrated the door and pocked the side of the block. The 7.62 penetrated the door, penetrated the side of the block, and literally pulverized the concrete 'divider' between the two center channels.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

Which one? the -14 or -30? The -14 uses the same round as the M4, the -30 the same round as the AK-47.

The most common complaint about the 5.56 is it's apparent lack of stopping power. These complaints come mostly from the military, and is directly attributable to the type of ammmo beinng used. The SS109 (green-tip) ammo needs to be traveling at near 3000fps to split up in soft tissue. The M4, with it's 14.5" barrel, doesnt generate enough velocity to achieve this at any distance (100 yards I think I read once). The bullet will enter and exit "cleanly" and cause little soft tissue damage other than the hole. Most of the ammo "problems" have been "corrected" with heavier, match-grade ammo. Also, the ammo used by many LE agencies are designed to fragment more easily to decrease penetration (through offenders and/or walls).

The 7.62 is a beast. While not having the ability to travel the distances that the 5.56 can, it's effects are quite different. I saw a demonstration once where a concrete block (with the two hollow holes in the center used for building walls and such) was placed on the seat of a car and then shot through the closed car door. The 5.56 penetrated the door and pocked the side of the block. The 7.62 penetrated the door, penetrated the side of the block, and literally pulverized the concrete 'divider' between the two center channels.

What is the mini-14 shooting. With me being in the Air Force and we are either given M-16's or M-4's so I know the lack of stopping power/destruction but they are accurate as hell. I've shot a M-21 before they are decent lil snipers to.

[kiltedninja]

Mini 14 shoots the 5.56 x45NATO round, or the .223.

I prefer the M1A to the Mini, but it's because I'm putting a bigger round down range. Since it's really just a semi-auto M14. I'm more comfortable with my Lee Enfield, since the Ishapore made ones use the same 7.62x51 round.

[Darkness]

"Children, Children, CHILDREN!!! ENOUGH!!!"

"Start playing nice, and get this thread back on topic, or I'm coming back with the Pad Locks AND Daddy!!!!!"



"It had to be said. Now back to your regular schedualed conversation." :lol:

[kiltedninja]

I think we started playing nice about a page ago, thanks, but I'll pass on the padlocks.

A rifle is just as important to a sniper as his training, since without one, the other isn't quite as useful. We're discussing(now) good rifles.

[Darkness]

"We already have TONS of threads on rifles and other guns. Please stay on topic in here. Thanks."

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

so i have a question do you think the snipers would do okay in an urban setting?

[CityOfChicago]

The military and LE use them now in urban areas, so I'd say yes. In a downtown area such as NYC or here in Chicago, the fields of fire would be limited due to the proximity of other tall buildings, but with a decent elevation to shoot from I don't see any major problems.

[J Dub]

so i have a question do you think the snipers would do okay in an urban setting?

snipers would do well in most environments i think. military snipers would likely compare urban shots to that of shooting fish in a barrel. i could see these snipers dropping down to the smallest possible caliber just to keep it interesting :lol:

jmo
but the military has true snipers and equipment that can reach out to 2000meters and then some.
leo/swat engage the majority of their targets inside 100meters in urban areas, and i doubt there's too many departments that issue tactical rifles in .50bmg.

that being said, i think it boils down to training. the military snipers will fare better than most if not all others. the leo/swat teams that are close to this skill level usually learned these skills in the military.

[CityOfChicago]

jmo
but the military has true snipers and equipment that can reach out to 2000meters and then some.
leo/swat engage the majority of their targets inside 100meters in urban areas, and i doubt there's too many departments that issue tactical rifles in .50bmg.

that being said, i think it boils down to training. the military snipers will fare better than most if not all others. the leo/swat teams that are close to this skill level usually learned these skills in the military.

This is a true statement. We don't arm our SWAT with the .50, that's for sure. The employment of snipers for LE is generally quite different than the military. And the ranges are waaaaay shorter.

[kiltedninja]

I know a SWAT sniper as a matter of fact. Here in Portland, we use the Remington 700. He's never seen serious action here, but they train him for urban combat shooting.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

I know a SWAT sniper as a matter of fact. Here in Portland, we use the Remington 700. He's never seen serious action here, but they train him for urban combat shooting.

Thats sounds about rihgt i've been to a swat armory there where carrying some R-700's in there.

Okay here's another interesting one...So your in charge of a sniper team the day Z Day hits what are you goning to direct your sniper team to do that will be useful?

[CityOfChicago]

I am going to find the location that my superiors are intending to use as a compound, then offer my advice/suggestions on such. After a location has been selected, I'm going to position them at an appropriate height (roofline or other windows) and advise them to identify and eliminate threats at distance.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

I am going to find the location that my superiors are intending to use as a compound, then offer my advice/suggestions on such. After a location has been selected, I'm going to position them at an appropriate height (roofline or other windows) and advise them to identify and eliminate threats at distance.

Sounds good to me, I'd no doubt postion my guys for defense depending on whter we are rural or urban depends on the set up i put them in, Also I'd use them to gather intel on choke points possible supply routes, exits and entrances for fast entry.escape, all kinds of intel to be gathered and of course some zed killing.

[CityOfChicago]

I'm operating under the assumption that I wond be commanding an army, but maybe a couple hundred people. In this size population, I'm hoping for 4 scout/sniper teams. I don't think it's terrible realistic to think of any larger contingent of real snipers. That said, I'm using my snipers for perimeter defense only. They can sit up there and trade time behind the scope, keeping zeds at a far distance. For other activities, such as intel gathering and such, I'd employ at least one designated marksman, two if I have them, to accompany any teams.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

I'm operating under the assumption that I wond be commanding an army, but maybe a couple hundred people. In this size population, I'm hoping for 4 scout/sniper teams. I don't think it's terrible realistic to think of any larger contingent of real snipers. That said, I'm using my snipers for perimeter defense only. They can sit up there and trade time behind the scope, keeping zeds at a far distance. For other activities, such as intel gathering and such, I'd employ at least one designated marksman, two if I have them, to accompany any teams.

I agree heavily with all you've said but I'd prolly deploy 6 scout/sniper teams.

[CAVU45]

I'm operating under the assumption that I wond be commanding an army, but maybe a couple hundred people. In this size population, I'm hoping for 4 scout/sniper teams. I don't think it's terrible realistic to think of any larger contingent of real snipers. That said, I'm using my snipers for perimeter defense only. They can sit up there and trade time behind the scope, keeping zeds at a far distance. For other activities, such as intel gathering and such, I'd employ at least one designated marksman, two if I have them, to accompany any teams.

Designated Marksmen? I'm assuming you're talking about the US Army's designated marksman program grads here. If so, to the best of my knowledge, they aren't the full snipers' craft, but are taught marksmanship essentials that they can take back to their units and teach to others.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

Designated Marksmen? I'm assuming you're talking about the US Army's designated marksman program grads here. If so, to the best of my knowledge, they aren't the full snipers' craft, but are taught marksmanship essentials that they can take back to their units and teach to others.

That's what i was thinking, what if we were to have one ACTUAL TRUE sniper would he be able to teach the others his tatics?

[CityOfChicago]

Yes. I don't want "full snipers" out on most of my "missions". But I do want some people who have training above and beyond the basic range and qualifications. These people will be better trained and more accurate with their weapons, which wont be sniper rifles but the same weapons as the rest of their assigned teams. That way, they can function as an integrated member of the team, but should a hasty retreat be needed, they can provide accurate covering fire. Additionally, should a single or small threat emerge as a short distance, they are the go-to guys for resolving those threats quickly and accutately. A sniper with a sniper rifle is purpose specific, and would have only limited value in specific situations on a patrol or "mission".

[CityOfChicago]

That's what i was thinking, what if we were to have one ACTUAL TRUE sniper would he be able to teach the others his tatics?

Like I said, I'd want more than 1 sniper - 4 teams to be specific. And I'm all for them enhancing my soldiers skills and judging distance and wind and such. And I don't mind if they convert another team to serve as a back up or, should a 'mission' require a sniper team. But the sniper would carry a sniper rifle, not an assault or battle rifle. Soldiers are taught marksmanship - there is no spray and pray. So I've already got good shooters. If I'm dealing with a civilian population only, but am luck enough to have a real sniper in my midst, his first job will be to find the best shooters in the group and create some teams that he will train as snipers. Everyone else gets taught marksmanship.

[mattifikation]

Oh yeah? Well I'd control a million billion people with sixteen hundred thousand super snipers with full qualifications!

C'mon people, get real. You'd be lucky to have a group of 20 if *half* of them consistently did what you said, and out of that group you can count your blessings if *two* of them are professionally trained shooters of *any* sort.

[CityOfChicago]

Get real? This is a forum about zombies, in a section about undead survival and defense, in a thread about snipers and their use on the day of a zombie apocalypse. And you want me to get real?

And to that end, I'd offer that my place of work has 13,000 armed employees, with near 100 working in my district on my watch alone. So I can 'realisticly' say that I'd have at least the 50 people I mentioned before around me, and that all would be trained with handguns and shotguns, and at least half of that number former military with rifle rifle training.

My department requires I live within the city itself. There are two neigborhoods that have exceptionally high numbers of both police and fire. My block alone has two more cops and two firemen. So even if I was not at work, I could reasonably expect to link up my families with theirs and have a small group, with several of them trained in using handguns, shotguns, axes, and picks.

The OP asked about snipers and their usage. We've been talking about deployment and ideal conditions, and we've even mentioned that if we were luck to have even one trained sniper, protocols for training others. Given the circumstances of this forum, I'd say we've been pretty real.

[mattifikation]

Haha. Yeah right. Most of them would bail to save their own skins and families. Katrina showed us the true nature of the pig force.

[CityOfChicago]

You're opinion on the police is your own, and spoken like a person who has no idea what it's like to be one. You don't know anything more about my character than I yours, so I dismiss your comments.

Perhaps you can either discuss the topic at hand - without benefit of light sabers and adamantium skeletons - or you can dismiss yourself from this thread.

[mattifikation]

Oh, look at that. A pig on a power trip, telling other people what to do. What a surprise. I don't know anything about your character, but I know plenty about the character of people in general. And when S *really* HTF, the police aren't a factor.

Oh, by the way your royal highness. Until you're a moderator, don't tell me what to do, asshole.

[Bob]

Oh Burn...

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

Come on seriously guys, I know i had a dispute with two young men yesterday on this same thread, and Darkness asked us to stop being lil pompus jerks, so can we just we civilized and get back to the thread?

[Darkness]

"Stop it! You guys are acting like first graders! One more, and I'm locking the thread. Get it? Got it? GOOD!"

[CityOfChicago]

Oh, look at that. A pig on a power trip, telling other people what to do. What a surprise. I don't know anything about your character, but I know plenty about the character of people in general. And when S *really* HTF, the police aren't a factor.

Oh, by the way your royal highness. Until you're a moderator, don't tell me what to do, asshole.

If anyone here is being an asshole it's you. Here we were having a discusiion about snipers, right along with the intent of the thread, and instead of adding anything useful on the subject, you drop in with some smart-ass comments.

then, I said you were entitled to your own opinions, but since you didn't know what i was about, I'd dismiss them off hand. Twice you felt compelled to insult me directly. Again - asshole move.

I don't know what experiences you've had with the police. I also don't know what experiences you've had with when "S *really* HTF". But I can tell you I have been in those situations - from 100 person gang fights to building fires, to being personally shot at - and the people I work directly with have always run towards the danger. I admit that there are cops out there who are selfish, cruel, and even behave criminally. I am not one of them, and I do not condone them. Your stereotyping of me as a 'pig' is bigoted and shows you to behave like a...you guessed it - asshole.

And if anyone is on a power trip, it's you. Jumping into a thread with nothing to add to the topic other than dismissive and smartass remarks. Here and in the thread I started.

[kiltedninja]

OI!

No disrespect, but shut your F--kin mouth, both of you. Neither of you have any idea what it's like to be the other. If you insist on arguing, then go elsewhere so those of us who'd like to discuss this can without Der Fuhrer locking up this thread.

I've said my piece.

[mattifikation]

Okay, okay, you win. You'll have 50 men and four sniper teams on Z-Day. I suggest we heed Darkness' warning and get back on topic though. Her cut-open boob chick avatar scares the crap out of me.

I maintain my stance that for most people commanding a large, specialized force complete with multiple teams of professional snipers would be an extremely difficult goal to reach.

I think snipers will have their place in a ZPAW environment, but it's extremely rare to run across people who can really lay claim to that prestigious title. I'd welcome one to my "team" in a heartbeat, but I wouldn't count on having the luxury.

[kiltedninja]

I want eight people at most, two long range shooters, and six medium and close range shooters.

A large force= more painful mutiny.

Back to snipers, I figure that in ZPAW, anyone that can sneak, collect info, and shoot at long range (excess of 200 yds.) would be considered a sniper, regardless of what they're called now.

[Bob]

Originally a sniper was anyone shooting from a hidden position.
Really and truly do you think a "fresh" Zed would care if the guy who shot him from the bell tower was a trained sniper or some hoser with a scope?
Once the gray matter hits the pavement it makes no difference.

Real world training will mean most against the living who can think and reason.
The Zed are just going to mill about until they know where you are then they won't stop till you either run away or put them down.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

Originally a sniper was anyone shooting from a hidden position.
Really and truly do you think a "fresh" Zed would care if the guy who shot him from the bell tower was a trained sniper or some hoser with a scope?
Once the gray matter hits the pavement it makes no difference.

Real world training will mean most against the living who can think and reason.
The Zed are just going to mill about until they know where you are then they won't stop till you either run away or put them down.

I agree with this, sniper/marksmen it matters not as long as that zed is dead.

[CityOfChicago]

Okay, okay, you win. You'll have 50 men and four sniper teams on Z-Day. I suggest we heed Darkness' warning and get back on topic though. Her cut-open boob chick avatar scares the crap out of me.

I maintain my stance that for most people commanding a large, specialized force complete with multiple teams of professional snipers would be an extremely difficult goal to reach.

I think snipers will have their place in a ZPAW environment, but it's extremely rare to run across people who can really lay claim to that prestigious title. I'd welcome one to my "team" in a heartbeat, but I wouldn't count on having the luxury.

My goal is not to 'win'. This whole realm is fantasy. In this fantasy realm, we asked if snipers would be useful, and I gave what I thought would be my ideal set-up in that regard. Not what I thought would be likely, but what I'd like to have as an ideal. That's it.

Incidently, I agree with the rest of your post.

[CityOfChicago]

Well it appears that we've killed this thread :doh:

Apologies to the OP.

[Bob]

Dead?
Nah, just taking a nap.

[50 cal]

Would a trained sniper be useful? Probably not. Their main mission is gathering intel or taking out a priority target.
There would be so many Z's ambling around that a trained sniper would be a waste shooting at them unless he/she was in an elevated fortified position. On the ground in a hide with the Z's roaming around a sniper would be next to useless.

Sure, as a trained marksman they would be very useful in thinning the herd in your AO (area of operations).

[bandits1]

Would a trained sniper be useful? Probably not. Their main mission is gathering intel or taking out a priority target.
There would be so many Z's ambling around that a trained sniper would be a waste shooting at them unless he/she was in an elevated fortified position. On the ground in a hide with the Z's roaming around a sniper would be next to useless.

Sure, as a trained marksman they would be very useful in thinning the herd in your AO (area of operations).
Um...so...what is your answer?

[kiltedninja]

I like naps.

I also like making bullets hit targets at long range.

Now that we're done talking about me, a sniper is good for more than a marksman, but only as good as any other person that mass portions of our tax money goes towards to make sure he can stay alive in the most hostile environments with the most hostile people in them. Yup, you find those guys everywhere.

[CityOfChicago]

a trained sniper would be a waste ... unless he/she was in an elevated fortified position.


This was my whole position.

[J Dub]

This was my whole position.

its not like you got your face ripped off or something :lol::lol:

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj123/jonwaite/dogface.gif

[fast1]

i think snipers are good if they are deployed in the right locations, and they should not work alone, maybe in pairs or something to look out for each other. not too sure if the zombies will detect them my sight or my smell, so cover might not be an effective leverage here...http://photosnag.com/img/3322/n09x0302vnsn/clear.gif

[CityOfChicago]

its not like you got your face ripped off or something :lol::lol:

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj123/jonwaite/dogface.gif

Sucks to be that dude.

[CAVU45]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50 cal
a trained sniper would be a waste ... unless he/she was in an elevated fortified position.


This was my whole position.

Anybody can be trained to shot from an elevated static position. That's not the snipers' job. The sniper would be good at gathering intel for a larger group and then for helping to keep a clear path for that group.

[50 cal]

Um...so...what is your answer?

A sniper would only be good during an outbreak for for taking the long range shots that some others may not be trained to make.
But those long range shots would ultimately be a waste of time and ammo.

Best bet is to avoid the Z's unless absolutely necessary. Or taking the fight to them becomes an absolute necessity for whatever reason the mission dictates.

[CityOfChicago]

Anybody CAN be trained to shoot from an elevated and static position, but a sniper IS trained.

I think it's safe to say that during the zombification the status quo will be well tossed out the window. Standard warfare goes bye-bye, and we're in uncharted territory. I don't know if I agree that long distance shots are a waste. I had said before that my plan would be to hold out in a fortified location in a small rural town. Around here, in the sticks, towns can be seperated by several miles of fairly flat land. Once my whole town has been cleared, I'd put my snipers to use in a role that is not standard, but suited for the training that they currently have. From an elevated position, I'd ask thatthey secure the perimeter of the fortification as far as they can see and shoot. If that's 1000 yards fine. Stack the zeds up before they even have a chance to get near the fortification. Even if they start to move en masse towards my location, shambling along, the snipers can engage them slowly and methodically from distance.

Yes I you can train people to shoot at distance, but I myself cannot train how to shoot at that far a distance. So, would they be helpful? Absolutely. Would I like to have some? Sure. Can I get by without them? Of course.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50 cal
a trained sniper would be a waste ... unless he/she was in an elevated fortified position.




Anybody can be trained to shot from an elevated static position. That's not the snipers' job. The sniper would be good at gathering intel for a larger group and then for helping to keep a clear path for that group.


This makes most sense, and of course add a few more lil tasks and you have a sniper.

[hotlead]

Y'know, sitting on top of a building and shooting a high-power bolt action glassed rifle at targets 1,000+yds isn't the only thing a sniper can do.

They can also shoot other weapons very well, and act as part of a rifle squad.

All scout/snipers and DMs were assigned to a unit according to their MOS for duty after basic, then they can apply for sniper school and are trained as snipers if accepted.

So, a sniper isn't any more useless than the rest of us would be on Z-day. Likely he would be much less useless than the rest of us, in all aspects of Z fighting.

[Dave Of The Dead]

Seriously, a sniper is expected to have more skills than just being able to shoot at long ranges. All snipers are trained to survey areas and search for hidden people/ items/ traps. I see that being very useful.

[mattifikation]

One could shoot me. I'd feel real good about being shot right now. A thousandth of a second of going "Oh sweet release..." Now that would make my life complete. Kinda literally. haha.

Yeah, zombies. Blah.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

Seriously, a sniper is expected to have more skills than just being able to shoot at long ranges. All snipers are trained to survey areas and search for hidden people/ items/ traps. I see that being very useful.

more than useful it would be invaulable

[Noc]

I think everyone has mentioned how effictive marksman/sharpshooters/snipers would be during a zombie outbreak. But I just thought I would throw in my piece about people 'playing sniper' Not only is it unnecessary, but how many people here have actually worn a ghillie suit? I tried one on and it was so amazingly hot. Lying in the shrubs all day with one on you would need at least 10 litres of water so you wouldn't become dehydrated.

Or maybe thats just because I tried one on in the Australian bush..:doh:

[ratfink1970]

while with eodmu2 in iraq for 4 tours i was the designated sharpshooter with that group spending time with many accurized rifles mainly the m16 with a acog or a m14 with fixed 10x power i can promise even with the m24 in 7.62 you can take many quick shots i was on the top of a humvee sniping and we would move then i would take more shots when we invaded fallijua and baghdad and we never stayed in a position more than 5 min at a time and that was really taking our time a trained " sniper "s job has changed quite a bit with current marine training we no longer stay in one position and would have no problem taking head shots eaisly also remember most designated shooters in this position have a spotter with a m/4 or m16 with a 3x scope on it ACOG and can take shots out to 500 meters with that set up eaisly and usally the spotter is actually the senior member of the team and the shooter is the lower rank person the spotter is the brains of the sniping team and you cant have one without the other


and also like stated above the main job of a sniper in the us millitary ( i only have experience with navy and marine ) is to give intel to sneak in the area and get out with out ever being seen this would be unlikley due to the situation that would be in but snipers would be a great forward observer to the intelligence of the forward command in this situation

[Bob]

How about a sniper shotgun.

This one was commercially produced.
However now I am toying with the idea of putting one of these together just to mess with a friend who would attempt to lecture me forever on how useless it is.
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/603/scattergunurbansniper10.jpg


Be sure to hit the link
http://firearmspedia.com/scattergun-technologies-tr1187-urban-sniper-model/

http://www.hornady.com/media/2009_catalog/47_ammo_shotgun_sst.pdf
http://www.gunhuntermag.com/Articles/tabid/113/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/301/Whats-New-in-Shotgun-Slugs.aspx

[Bob]

Here is more than you probably want to know but is worth the time to read.

Shotgun Slugs

By Chuck Hawks



The first shotgun "slugs" were probably round, lead "pumpkin balls." These were common projectiles for muskets and shotguns--any sort of smooth bore long arm--for a long time. Unfortunately, the accuracy of a lead ball fired from a smooth bore barrel is pretty sad. Hitting the target is problematical and precise bullet placement is nearly impossible except at very close range. Also, a lead ball has a very poor sectional density (SD), and consequently poor penetration. There had to be a better way.

The answer, of course, was the rifled barrel. Imparting spin to a projectile to stabilize its flight was a quantum improvement in accuracy. Rifled barrels also made possible the conical bullet, and later the familiar spitzer (pointed) bullets used by most hunters today.

But demand remained for some sort of solid projectile that could be fired from a smoothbore gun and used on medium game like deer. Some one-gun families did not own, and could not afford to buy, a rifle. What was needed was an improvement on the lead ball, both in terms of accuracy and penetration.

Foster type rifled slugs

The eventual solution to this problem was the Foster "rifled" slug. This is a short, blunt lead bullet that is solid in front and hollow in the rear, analogous to a badminton bird. And, like a shuttlecock, it is its weight forward balance that allows the Foster slug to fly through the air to its target with reasonable accuracy. Compared to lead balls, this was a big improvement in both accuracy and SD.

Heavy external "rifling" was cast into these Foster type slugs, allegedly to allow the air they flew through to impart a slow spin that would help stabilize the slug. Like most something for nothing schemes, the rifling proved ineffective, but it did provide some space for some compression if the slug had to squeeze through a tight choke. The name "rifled slug" stuck and is still in widespread use today.

Rifled slugs are offered by most of the major ammunition makers in a variety of shotgun gauges, including 12, 16, 20, and .410 bore. They used to be made under bore diameter to allow safe passage through any degree of choke, from full to cylinder. Cylinder bore guns are usually recommended for shooting slugs, but in some cases a full or modified choke barrel will give better accuracy with the undersize slugs.

This may not always hold true these days, however, as Remington advertises that their "Slugger" rifled slugs are made oversize for better sealing against the barrel wall and superior accuracy. Compared to rifle bullets, whose diameter is held to very strict tolerances, Foster type slugs are made to rather haphazard dimensions that vary from one manufacturer to another.

The use of slugs is best confined to single barrel shotguns, either single shot or repeaters. Double guns tend to crossfire with slugs due to the regulation of the barrels.

A smoothbore "slug gun" with rifle sights will usually shoot groups in the 3" (6 MOA) range at 50 yards/meters, making them satisfactory deer hunting weapons at short range. An occasional example will do better, and some do worse. Their effective deer hunting range is limted by their accuracy, but the slug itself is dangerous to other hunters at far greater distances, an important point to keep in mind.

Compared to practically any big game rifle bullet, rifled slugs are not very accurate. They are a short range (100 yard or less) proposition at best. The ballistic coefficient (BC) and sectional density of rifled slugs is pretty pitiful. The only place they score high numbers is in recoil, where low numbers are desired. Shooting groups from a bench rest with a slug gun is not fun, as the recoil is considerable. If possible, always use a rifle in preference to a slug gun for any kind of big game hunting.

Some jurisdictions in the U.S. forbid the use of rifles and mandate the use of shotgun slugs for deer hunting, allegedly for "safety" in crowded hunting areas. I am sure that this is what keeps rifled slugs viable as a sporting proposition. (They are also used in police "riot" guns, of course.)

This is actually kind of funny in an ironic way, as the one thing slugs do really well is penetrate brush. Rifled slugs are probably the most dangerous type of ammunition to use in a wooded area crowded with hunters and other humans, as they plow through visually impenetrable brush, leaves, and small tree limbs with aplomb. A high velocity rifle with a frangible bullet would be far safer in such an environment. I have, for instance, seen .22 varmint bullets fired at very high velocity turn into a puff of blue smoke on a blade of grass!

Conventional Foster type rifled slugs generally weigh 1 ounce in 12 gauge, 4/5 ounce in 16 gauge, 5/8 ounce in 20 gauge, and 1/5 ounce (or 87 grains) in .410 gauge. The 12 gauge slug has an advertised muzzle velocity (MV) of 1560 fps from a 2 3/4" high-brass shell, 1680 fps from a 2 3/4" Magnum shell, or 1760 fps from a 3" Magnum shell. These are Remington figures from their 2004 catalog. The MV's of the other gauges are similar.

The catalog energy figures for the common high-brass ("maximum") 12 gauge slug load are an impressive 2361 ft. lbs. at the muzzle, but only 926 ft. lbs. at 100 yards. This is due to the very poor BC of the slug. Sighted to hit dead on at 50 yards, that slug is 4.8" low at 100 yards. The more powerful 12 gauge slugs are only marginally better, and kick noticeably harder. No matter what, rifled slugs remain a short range proposition.

Stick with 12 gauge Foster type slugs for deer hunting as the smaller gauges pack much less punch. The 20 gauge slug develops only 648 ft. lbs. of energy at 100 yards, which given its low SD is not encouraging. I have done some testing with .410 rifled slugs and they are definitely not adequate deer loads. The less said about these small bore rifled slugs the better.

Brenneke, Buckhammer, and Trophy Slug

These resemble Foster type slugs with one important difference: the wad remains attached to the base of the slug. This provides a better BC and stability in flight, a better shuttlecock, if you will. The assembly is heavier than a plain rifled slug due to the weight of the attached wad. The difference in retained energy at 100 yards is considerable.

The original design of this type, as far as I know, is the German Brenneke slug, offered by Rottweil. Brenneke rifled slugs still use felt and fiber wads, and are suitable for use in smooth or rifled shotgun barrels. Rottweil offers several slug loads in 12, 20, and .410. Their 2 3/4" 12 gauge slug weighs 1 1/4 ounce, and their 3" Magnum 20 gauge slug weighs a full 1 ounce.

A MV of 1476 fps and ME of 2538 are claimed for the 12 gauge 2 3/4" Magnum load. More important is the 100 yard retained energy figure of 1170 ft. lbs.

Fiocchi of Italy offers the Aeroslug Trophy Slug, which appears to be a modernized and simplified version of the Brenneke design. It, too, is recommended for both smooth and rifled barrels. The Fiocchi Trophy slug weighs 1 ounce in 2 3/4" 12 gauge shells, and 7/8 ounce in 2 3/4" 20 gauge shells. Ballistics are similar to the Brenneke loads with somewhat less energy due to the lighter slugs.

Perhaps the most creative design of this general sort, with which I am familiar, is the Remington Buckhammer. It is also the most recent innovation. The Buckhammer lead slug itself is a short truncated cone, rather like a lead "Keith" style revolver bullet. Attached to the base of this is a long, plastic "stabilizer" wad. Remington says that the Buckhammer was designed for use in fully rifled barrels, or with rifled choke tubes. The diameter of the lead slug is supposed to be .73", so I do not see why it could not be used in cylinder bore (smooth) shotgun barrels, but I have not tried it. Experiment at your own risk!

12 gauge Buckhammer slugs weigh 1 1/4 ounces in 2 3/4" cases or 1 3/8 ounces in 3" cases. 20 gauge Buckhammer slugs come only in 2 3/4" cases and weigh 1 ounce.

These Remington Buckhammer loads claim the most impressive ballistics of the bunch. The 12 gauge 2 3/4" load has a MV of 1550 fps and ME of 2935 ft. lbs. The 100 yard figures are 1145 fps and 1600 ft. lbs. Zeroed at 50 yards, the 1 1/4 ounce slug should hit 3.6" low at 100 yards, so it is still a short range load. Naturally, they kick like the very devil in a shotgun of average weight.

The 20 gauge Buckhammer load has a MV of 1500 fps and ME of 2236 ft. lbs. The 100 yard figures are 995 fps and 1074 ft. lbs. Zeroed at 50 yards, the 1 ounce slug should hit 4.6" low at 100 yards.

While still inferior to the 12 gauge loads, the Buckhammer and Brenneke slug loads (which claim similar ballistics) at least get the 20 gauge slug gun up off of its knees. If I had to shoot a smoothbore 20 gauge slug gun, these are the loads I would use.

All three manufacturers of these "super" rifled slugs claim exceptional accuracy in fully rifled barrels. Remington, for example, claims 3" to 3 1/2" 5-shot groups at 100 yards (3.5 MOA or better) with their Buckhammer slugs. Such accuracy would be considered unacceptable from a rifle, of course, but it will take deer at 100 yards.

Sabot slugs

These days most of the major shotshell manufacturers also offer sabot slug loads for 12 and 20 gauge shotguns. These are for use only in fully rifled barrels. How a long arm with a fully rifled barrel can be termed a "shotgun," I fail to understand, but that is beside the point. These loads are essentially equivalent to the kind of loads used in modern, high performance muzzleloading rifles.

Since the Remington catalog is still open in front of me, I will use their sabot slugs as representative of the type. Bear in mind that, as with sabot bullets for muzzleloaders, they're plenty of variations available.

Remington offers 12 and 20 gauge Premier sabot loads with both JHP bonded lead core bullets and solid copper hollow point bullets. The former are called "Premier Core-Lokt Ultra," and latter are "Premier Copper Solid."

The 12 gauge Core-Lokt Ultra sabot bullet is a .50 caliber, 385 grain HP semi-spitzer. The catalog MV is 1900 fps and the 100 yard velocity is 1648 fps. The ME is given as 3086 ft. lbs. and the remaining energy at 100 yards is 2325 ft. lbs. The trajectory of that load looks like this: +1.8" at 50 yards, +2.4" at 100 yards, and +/- 0" at 150 yards.

The 20 gauge sabot bullet weighs 260 grains. It also has a MV of 1900 fps, and its velocity at 100 yards is given as 1615 fps. The ME is 2084 ft. lbs., and the remaining energy at 100 yards is 1506 ft. lbs. The trajectory of that load looks like this: +2.0" at 50 yards, +2.7" at 100 yards, and +/- 0" at 150 yards.

As I wrote at the outset, this are similar to the ballistics obtainable with high performance, .50 caliber, inline muzzleloading rifles. Accuracy is apparently not quite as good as the best muzzleloaders, as Remington claims consistent 2 1/2" 5-shot groups at 100 yards. But that is impressive accuracy from any kind of shotgun--even if it is really a rifle!

Clearly, the use of these sabot bullet loads completely negates the rationale behind the "shotgun only" deer hunts. Not only are these shotguns with rifled barrels technically rifles, they shoot like rifles. In fact, they equal traditional big game rifle cartridges such as the .45-70 and .38-55.

For example, a .45-70 rifle shooting a 400 grain bullet (BC .214) at a MV of 1900 fps has a trajectory that looks like this: +2.1" at 50 yards, +2.8" at 100 yards, +/- 0" at 150 yards, and -7.2" at 200 yards (Speer figures). That is a very similar trajectory to the Remington Core-Lokt Ultra loads described above.

The Hornady .45 caliber, 300 grain XTP-Mag sabot bullet used in their 12 gauge factory load has a BC of .200, which I suspect is not much different than the BC of the Remington sabot bullet. Holding a scope's horizontal crosswire level with a buck's back should put the bullet into the heart/lung area at 200 yards. Some shotgun!

Slug loads for home defense

Questions about slugs for home defense arise fairly frequently in my mail so, briefly, here is my take on the subject. Shotgun slugs are dangerously over penetrative for most home defense scenarios. (You have no right to endanger your neighbors.) I suggest that, inside of a domicile, #4 buckshot is usually a more appropriate defensive shotgun load.

If you are forced to defend a farm, ranch house, or cabin from external attack, a rifle will probably be superior to a shotgun stuffed with slugs. So I do not see much reason to choose shotgun slug loads for personal defense, except in special circumstances.

Police use of rifled slug loads in the riot guns carried in cruisers is one example of a special circumstance. Many police agencies are reluctant to provide both rifles and shotguns for their patrol cars, so they issue rifled slug loads for use in shotguns. This allows the squad car riot gun to serve as a makeshift rifle if required. Once again, the shotgun becomes a "poor man's rifle."

Slug loads may also be appropriate in some marine applications. In addition to birdshot and buckshot loads, I always kept a pack of rifled slugs handy for my "boat gun," a Mossberg 500 Mariner.

Conclusion

I have primarily concentrated on slug loads for hunting, for which purpose I feel that they are most appropriate. Even so, they are a stop gap alternative to a rifle, primarily useful where rifles are banned for political reasons. Shotgun slug loads intended to be fired from smooth bore barrels manage to combine the worst properties of any hunting projectile: marginal accuracy, low velocity, low sectional density, low ballistic coefficient, rainbow trajectory, and heavy recoil. Nearly the worst of all possible worlds! If you can legally hunt with a rifle, you owe it to both yourself and your quarry to do so. If not, but the law allows the use of fully rifled "shotgun" barrels and saboted projectiles, that is what you should use.

[Darkness]

"We have a Thread on Bullets. This one is about Snipers. Please stay on topic."

[Bob]

It was all intended to be information for sniping with a shotgun (as silly as it seems).
I could have refined the information but I wanted to present the entire article as written.

Next time I will keep the blah blah blah text more on target. :roll:

[detpat]

just on a side note, i once saw a Winchester 1897 shotgun in an out of the way gunshop in Donegal PA with a 52 inch barrel! i think that probably counts as a bird sniper. it was pretty odd to look towards the back of the shop and see this enormous barrel sticking up above all the other shotties in the rack.

[kiltedninja]

my dad has been hiding his Mossberg 590 from me all this time, and a Beneli 20 ga. at his brother's house, which is a lot closer to my location than his house.
I'd never put any consideration into a shotgun before, but since I've got two of them, I might grab one if I had to.

[ZEDcommand004]

snipers would be one of the foremost important people to have with a group after z-day

[Dave Of The Dead]

snipers would be one of the foremost important people to have with a group after z-day

Not really, but they would sure help.

[ZEDcommand004]

the way i see it if you can get them on top of a roof with lots of ammo and a good view they can stop alot of the zombies in their tracks

[Dave Of The Dead]

the way I see it, they can fall off that roof and endanger your entire group with all the attention you just created. Sure, a sniper would be alright if you had a safe compound to keep secure, but in the case of many many people, they'll be on the ground trying to find their way to a safer, more supplied spot than before. A sniper would be good for scouting, but even then, someone with some binoculars could do the exact same thing. Snipers are useful, but unnecessary.

[ZEDcommand004]

that is true i think someone who could do the same thing as a sniper but without as much noise and knew the lay of the land would be much better

[mattifikation]

How much noise do you think a sniper makes?

[ZEDcommand004]

it all depends on if the sniper rifle is suppressed or not!

[Bob]

You would not hear him.
The bullet being supersonic would impact before you heard it.

[ZEDcommand004]

yes but other people would hear it

[hotlead]

That sniper would have to take one or two more shots after the first one, which most snipers wouldn't do, before your group would be able to determine what direction they think the shots came from. If he's smart, he'd shoot over a body of water, or past a tree or building to make it sound like he was in a different direction.

Then your group would have to break cover, and go in that direction and look for him a few hundred yards away. Meanwhile, he'll displace and be nowhere near where he took his first shot.

Me thinks your group will have a hard time against a decent sniper.

[ZEDcommand004]

if the bullet is super sonic then it will make a crack sound in the air before he could take another shot so then you would know where it came from and i was talking about snipers against zombies

[Dave Of The Dead]

if the bullet is super sonic then it will make a crack sound in the air before he could take another shot so then you would know where it came from and i was talking about snipers against zombies

Super Sonic means it will be traveling above the speed of sound. The target will be hit by the bullet before the sound waves.

[ZEDcommand004]

i understand that but what if there are mult. targets? they would hear sound waves

[hotlead]

Refer to my post above, he'll be long gone and shooting at you from somewhere else before you get to his first location.

[ZEDcommand004]

no im refering to what if he was on a building or something or surrounded by zombies. he is doomed

[hotlead]

One of the important things you look for in a defensive or observational position is one or more concealed avenues of egress, snipers do the same.

[ZEDcommand004]

yes but if there is a way to escape that is easy then it is also an easy way in

[hotlead]

You win, the sniper dies.

[ZEDcommand004]

what type sniper do you think that you would take?

[hotlead]

A super navy seal trained marine astro-sniper, who has never ending life and sniped through history since the French-Indian war, with the newest and bestest remmington ultra-mag 7000 tactical bolt action full-automatic sniper rifle with mounted see-it-all scope.

[kiltedninja]

Vasily Zaytsev could do it. But snipers aren't just trained on one weapon system, they're taught to use all of their weapons to the fullest extent. If any modern soldier could be called a ninja, it would be the modern snipers or Rangers/Force Recon/SEALS, I put those three together like that because they're rough equivalents. Very rough equivalents, at least in the American military.
I don't know much about other military special forces, maybe the Spetznaz, SAS, or Royal Marine Commandos are in the same boat as the above. I dunno.

[Tobias Blaine]

Snipers are always good to have around. Most of all watching your back from afar. Its a good way to thin the herd as well. If a sniper travels alone and has to engage in close quarters combat, i would recommend what i've set up on my Vmatch, A lazer sight on a slanted rail extension thats sighted in at about 10 yards so i can gauge shots at a close distance without looking through the scope.............................also snipers are badass.....i support the fetish.

[JakAttak]

so tobias do you have plans later on?

[MallNinja]

There aren't any real snipers on this forum, so whats it matter?

[Dave Of The Dead]

There aren't any real snipers on this forum, so whats it matter?

I can snipe in Halo, which obviously means I can snipe with a real gun. :x

A lot of people think that's true, sadly, so in comes this thread. Snipers and few and far in between, so the chances of meeting one in a ZPAW situation would be ridiculous. I'm not saying its impossible, I'm just saying you would have to have the favor of the gods to come across one.

[MallNinja]

I can snipe in Halo, which obviously means I can snipe with a real gun. :x

A lot of people think that's true, sadly, so in comes this thread. Snipers and few and far in between, so the chances of meeting one in a ZPAW situation would be ridiculous. I'm not saying its impossible, I'm just saying you would have to have the favor of the gods to come across one.

And I was issued a KAC SR-25 prototype as a DM in Iraq in 2006/07, and there is a really good chance I've fired more rounds off a SR-25 with a Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10X40 than the bulk of people on this forum have seen in real life. And I'm no sniper.

[Bob]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/SR-25_pic01.jpg

True enough I would hazard a guess that the average number of rounds fired by all the users here combined would be a negative number.

Although some of the guys here have shot quite a bit of it, .308 right?

[Tobias Blaine]

i enjoy target shooting. No, i'm not a qualified sniper, but i've been shooting long enough to be a decent shot with iron sights or scope with various ammo calibers.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

i recently picked up a dragunov the other day, how we got one on base idk but i took a few shots, it was okay but i would def prefer my bolty over it.

[MallNinja]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/SR-25_pic01.jpg

True enough I would hazard a guess that the average number of rounds fired by all the users here combined would be a negative number.

Although some of the guys here have shot quite a bit of it, .308 right?

Close, Its a "7.62X51ish" chamber, but its head space is a little different. Its in the same boat as the KAC SPR26, which is built to shoot 77 grain smooth boat tails and nothing else. Its a fun gun to shoot, and easier to bang away with than doped up M14s, but its no M24 by any means. I would say what I liked most about it is that KAC sent suppressors over for each gun. The army also rediscovered subsonic ammo with the SR-25, which doesn't really have enough ass to cycle the action, but can come in handy from time to time. I'll have to dig out the old dope book for the exact specs if you want them, but I really don't think I would buy one for the cost of the military system verses the cost of an AR-10.

[Bob]

Don't bother, just idle curiosity on my part.
I am trying to work a deal on a FAL right now.

[Bob]

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7324/gun20tips2d762414917239.jpg

[Darkness]

"That one is more suited for this......."
http://www.allthingszombie.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19723
".....conversation." :lol:

[Brutish Sailor]

I recommend the AK-74 for sniping.

Its a Chinese (I think, dont have the stats pulled up for it.) redone version of the AK47.

lighter than the AK47, compact, and more accurate. I just really like it over the M16A2 and M-4 because it uses the 7.62 mm rather than 5.56, wont get deflected every time you hit a leaf.


Personally I would say forget trying to sharpshoot.

100 meters out? M240. The new barrels don't go hot as often, You lob 20 7.62 mm rounds downrange in a short time, and if you dont hit them in the head, you have ripped them to pieces with some brass to share with their minions to boot.

Very easy to breakdown for a field strip, Not a lot of small parts to keep track of like the M-16, which I have had some flashlight moments keeping up with the firing pin and its little spread pin that holds it in place.

If youy screw up field stripping a M240, you might as well be used for zombie bate by your zombie hoard killing team. If your a small guy, I wouldnt recommend it for combat just because of its size in case you are being overrun and need a quick escape from the hoards of the undead.



But as far as sniping the undead, good for single combatants, a good sized team needed for hoards, and the sniper isn't going to do most of the work. Not unless you have a REALLY good untouchable fortified position. Even then, with the ammo you will use.... I couldnt do it unless I LOVED IT. Unless I lived and died to do it.

If thats your cup of tea, more power to you.

[Brutish Sailor]

And for the record By "hot" I mean hot as in a runaway barrel. Yes I know it can happen. But the new developments are awesome. Its a good weapon.

[CAVU45]

I recommend the AK-74 for sniping.

Its a Chinese (I think, dont have the stats pulled up for it.) redone version of the AK47.

lighter than the AK47, compact, and more accurate. I just really like it over the M16A2 and M-4 because it uses the 7.62 mm rather than 5.56, wont get deflected every time you hit a leaf.


Personally I would say forget trying to sharpshoot.

100 meters out? M240. The new barrels don't go hot as often, You lob 20 7.62 mm rounds downrange in a short time, and if you dont hit them in the head, you have ripped them to pieces with some brass to share with their minions to boot.

Very easy to breakdown for a field strip, Not a lot of small parts to keep track of like the M-16, which I have had some flashlight moments keeping up with the firing pin and its little spread pin that holds it in place.

If youy screw up field stripping a M240, you might as well be used for zombie bate by your zombie hoard killing team. If your a small guy, I wouldnt recommend it for combat just because of its size in case you are being overrun and need a quick escape from the hoards of the undead.



But as far as sniping the undead, good for single combatants, a good sized team needed for hoards, and the sniper isn't going to do most of the work. Not unless you have a REALLY good untouchable fortified position. Even then, with the ammo you will use.... I couldnt do it unless I LOVED IT. Unless I lived and died to do it.

If thats your cup of tea, more power to you.

The AK74 uses the 5.45x39 cartridge and isn't nearly as accurate as the M16. And it definately isn't a weapon for long range shooting with an effective range of 600m. That's less than the M4. If you want to use the M240 bring tons of ammunition with you. You'll need it. It's definately not a weapon to be used by a raiding team. It's simply too heavy and requires at least two men to operate.

[hotlead]

Yeah, what he said, and the AK-74 and it's 5.45x39 cartridge were developed by the Russians under the eye of Mikail Kalashnikov as a response to the M-16.

[kiltedninja]

Soviet made AKs are manufactured by Izhmash in Ishvehk Russia. AK74s included.

[50 cal]

I've fired plenty of AK's and variants. Never seen one that was even close to being as accurate as an AR type rifle.
Even the 5.45x39 isn't as accurate as an AR style rifle.

[Darkness]

"This Thread is about Sniping, not Rifles." :naughty:

[bandits1]

"This Thread is about Sniping, not Rifles." :naughty:
Shouldn't it also be about sniper rifles? Or are you suggesting that we make a seperate thread titled: "Sniper's equipment on Z day"? Isn't it better that we be able to find all pertinent information in the same thread?

[Darkness]

"It's fine. Just make sure the relationship is clear, in the posts. So the topic is obvious to all new comers. Thanks." ;-)

[hotlead]

A "snipers' equipment and weapons" thread would just get merged with this one anyway. "This thread is about tying your shoes, not about shoelaces"

AKs would be fine as defense weapons for snipers and spotters, but no type of AK would be suitable for sniper work past 200yds or so, they're not accurate enough, and their round isn't powerful enough.

Now, the exception would be Druganovs and variants, they're just fine. But I'm not sure they should be lumped in with the family of AKs, it's where they come from for sure, but it's not where they are.

[Stankynuts]

Its not like snipers only have Sniper rifles guys, They carry an Ar along with them most of the time. They also have the same training as Marine/Army units but are also advanced at shooting long ranges.

[snakebite]

I actually am a Sniper on Active -Duty (I have my B4) . This is the deal, some guys are real snobs about the "Sniper" term. Technically, if you use well-aimed shots to kill somebody while unseen, then you're a sniper. There are three recognized categories of "sniper." Trained, Trained marksman and Armed Irregular. They're all considered Snipers because they do the job. There are actually a lot of Snipers in the military that aren't school-trained because they just haven't had the slots available to send them. it sucks, but thats how it is in the Army.
Now this next point is key: A Sniper is a really motivated guy who can shoot very, very well, is mature and likes to crawl in the mud. We are trained in all sorts of stuff to make us more self-sufficient and a greater combat multiplier. But the biggest thing is that a Sniper is an expert Infantryman first. He's been around on the Line, knows the deal and has moved on to bigger and better things. I would take a fellow Sniper any day over some overweight guy that hangs out at Soldier-of-Fortune conventions and has never set foot on enemy soil.

[Brutish Sailor]

I just looked up the 74, sorry about my lack of knowledge, I have never seen it, but have been misinformed it uses 7.62.

[Bob]

http://shooterready.com/

[ZombieAddict33]

well a sniper, if in a perfect position, can be key to provideing backup to scouting parties and even loan survivors runining from an imminant death. a sniper is a practical position. if with the right gear they could be taking out zombies before they even get close to them and their supplies.:evil:

[Noc]

I don't know if I would want my comrades shooting zombies that far away. I think 'snipers' would be most useful defending raiding parties from zeds that were getting to close. I think as a base defence, a 'sniper' would act more like a beacon than a zed deterrent.

[Undead Jackal]

Well they can be useful
pro
-they can kill zeds with one shot
-great for defense
-kills many in a low grass field
con
-need protection from flanking zeds
-need high place
-can't be used in forests,rain,and snow

So in the right condition they are more useful then foot soldiers:clap:

[ShotGunGuy93]

Oh my god people replied to this.

and I guess marksman would be a good term but I'm a terrible typist and it's so much than sniper and just doesn't resonate as well with people as "sniper"

Have you ever actually fired a firearm?

Or are you just some Counter Strike nerd that thinks any gun with any kind of optic on it is automatically, "te bEst SnIp3r Rif3l eVaR!!1".