Bolt action rifles: Pros and Cons against zeds

[Faran Brigo]

IMO, bolt action rifles belong solely in the marksman/sniper niche, for ordinary combat situations they are largely a no go. Against fast moving humans, you need a higer rate of fire, and against hordes of zombies you need higher magazine capacity than the 5-10 rounds they usually can load.

Of course you're going to use them if you have them, what I'm trying to do here is dispel the silly notion that bolt actions are preferable to semiautomatic/automatic rifles and carbines. I'll follow up with a deeper comparison (possibly side-by-side) when I have the time.

Penny for your thoughts people.

[Dave Of The Dead]

I would prefer a semi-auto. I like to keep cool under pressure and being able to spray and pray is not my cup of tea.

[Hitman]

I do know with the exception of a few , most hunting rifles are not up to the task of a hard millatary life. compair a good WW2 bolt gun with a new one such as the remington 710 that walmart sells to see what I mean. most hunting guns also have very thin light barrels that really start to move around when they get fired more than a few times in a row . dedictated sniper rifles have heavy bull barrels and are in common calibers . the other problem is volume of fire. most hunting guns have a fixed mag that hold 4-5 rounds. when empty they have to be re-loaded one round at a time. I'd also wager that most that would be found would have a cheaper scope on it that is not quite tough enough for me to bet life on. barrel longgevity is also a concern , some of the hotter magnimus are known to burn a barrel out in 200-300 rounds , thats several lifetimes to most hunters (I know some hunters that have ammo thats 10+ years old because the shoot one shot to make sure it hits then one per deer) . some one doing some serious thinning of zombie #'s or keeping them at bay will go through that # in short order . ammo supply is also going to be an issue . I have more .30-30 (200+ rounds) and .30-'06 (260+) than most hunters will ever buy in a lifetime for their gun. that small # would be a drop in the bucket for a busy sniper.

[mattifikation]

One benefit they would have over most semi-autos is that bolt action guns don't normally require magazines, which might be in short supply once there is no.. well.. supply.

One less thing to keep track of, one less thing to run out of, one less thing to carry.

Of course, the trade-off is slower reloading and lower ammo capacity.

[Slayer]

Military surplus bolt action rifles are excellent weapons against the zombies, but only under certain circumstances. They are fine if you are on the roof of your stronghold, or at a distance, and their accuracy is decent, and they won't use as much ammo as other types of weapons. I wouldn't one one if I was on the ground in close, but for most other affairs, they will do fine. Even with iron sights they do pretty well, Mausers, Enfields, and Mosin Nagants, I prefer Mosins because they are cheapest and their surplus ammo is cheapest. And their ammo is in spam cans, excellent for long term storage. Mosin Nagants are rugged reliable weapons and easy to use, they would be the primary weapon for defence on the roof of my zombie safehouse.

[Faran Brigo]

Magazines are reusable, and I think the advantage of not using magazine is more than offset by the fact that if there's more than 5 zombies after you, you're going to have to reload, and you might get tagged in the process. Think about walking through a suburban area with zeds coming from every direction, say, 11, which is not a particularly large number. I have an M16A2 with 30 round mag, you have a springfield rifle. All other factors being equal, I could take more than double that number without reloading, you're going to have to reload, by hand, at least 3 times, more if you miss. Even if you keep moving, you're taking more risks than I am.

[john154]

I love my Le-Enfields. My grandpa killed germans in italy with one, I have a 90 year old SMLE and its the most reliable gun I have. Thats all the testimony i'd ever need to trust one in a runing fight. With it's big, hard hitting round you can plug one zed and have that slug go right through two more. Its bayonet is two feet long and you could kill a man with a sinlge stroke of the solid wood stock. A wise man once said "you can't allways have what you want but sometimes you get what you need."

[bandits1]

I love my Le-Enfields. My grandpa killed germans in italy with one, I have a 90 year old SMLE and its the most reliable gun I have. Thats all the testimony i'd ever need to trust one in a runing fight. With it's big, hard hitting round you can plug one zed and have that slug go right through two more. Its bayonet is two feet long and you could kill a man with a sinlge stroke of the solid wood stock. A wise man once said "you can't allways have what you want but sometimes you get what you need."
I'm sure your Lee-Enfields are trusy, hearty firearms -- but are you saying you'd choose it in most situations over a modern, high-capacity, selectable-fire assault rifle? That's crazy-talk.

Bolt-actions have their place in any team's arsenal, no doubt, but it's certainly not in relatively close-quarters vs. multiple opponents.

[Faran Brigo]

The Lee-Enfield has a bit of an advantage since it's got 10 rounds capacity. The problem with the Enfield, I've heard, is finding adequate ammo in quantity. There's still surplus ammo that uses cordite instead of nitrocelulose, and it will corrode the barrel if you don't clean it regularly.

But former commonwealth countries have plenty of surplus ammo, so I guess it's not much of a problem. In the U.S. though, good luck finding enough .303 british.

By the by, the .308 can also penetrate more than one skull, but I think it would be very rare that you actually get the opportunity to take advantage of that. It's not like they march towards you in straight lines like WW1 soldiers.

[mattifikation]

Magazines are reusable, but they also wear out. They also get dropped, lost, banged up, etc.

Of course I'd prefer a semiauto over a bolt action, for as long as I had magazines. Once the mags are gone though, you'd be dumb to opt for a gun that required you to have them.

[Faran Brigo]

Everything wears out, with the amount of rounds you're going to use in a massive outbreak, 6 magazines will probably hold out longer than the barrel of the gun itself, so I think that's a moot point Matt. Besides, lever action rifles don't use magazines either and they have a higer rate of fire.

Both semi-autos and bolt action rifles are going to require regular (or at least ocassional) maintenance by a gunsmith, or at least someone with machining experience, if you want to keep them accurate and extend the life of the mechanism (and you will want to, once they stop producing spare parts). That person can also repair and refit banged up magazines.

All of that aside, for me the ability to make a stand against medium sized groups of zombies is a good trade-off for the reduction in ruggedness, considering that for one, it's not a big reduction and two, zombies usually come in large numbers.

[JakAttak]

I must say even for snipers if you have access of course would prefer a semi auto military sniper rifle such as an M-60 or dragonuv.

[john154]

No I wouldn't choose a Le-Enfield over a modern rifle but here in Canada modern rifles are few and far between on the civilian market. Whats more is the you don't need so many bullets if you shoot more deliberatly and you don't need to shoot a badguy more then once with 8mm, .303 or .308.

I've got a new(2007) production australian Le-Enfield that chambers 7.62/.308 and takes m-14 mags. This takes the great ole rifle and makes it better yet. No I wouldn't be too keen on going door kicking with one of these mofos but if you take the time to shoot properly these old boys can represent.

[JakAttak]

oh yea there's a reason it was Britain's fave sniper rifles for a long time.

[john154]

I'd ike to pose a quesion. In the event of the breakdown of civil law and the outbreak of a zombie infestation which of he following weapons would you choose if only these two were available to you?

Both have 60 rounds of their respective ammunition.

1)Le-Enfield. 1000m range, 10 round mag, one shot stopping power and tack driver accuracy with a bolt action

2)Sten gun. 50 yard range, 32 round magazine, low stopping power with poor accuracy but automatic capable.

I'd choose the former for its versitility and reliablity.

[Faran Brigo]

The enfield, the sten gun is an unreliable overheating piece of junk that misfeeds because of the side magazine and is made out of stamped metal which will bend if you're not gentle with it.

I'd like to ask a couple now myself

Which would you pick between

1) An M1 carbine and a springfield?

2) A kar98 and a G-43?

[john154]

The above are all fire full power cartriges. Naturally you'd choose the two repeating rifles because they are each one step above their opposing option in the evolution of the battle rifle.

Thats like asking whether I prefer a M1 Garand or a M-14.

[Faran Brigo]

Actually the M1 carbine uses a smaller (intermediate between handgun and rifle) cartdrige than the Garand, though the Kar and the G-43 share the same ammo.

That was the point actually, comparing bolt action rifles with other kinds of rifles, not submachineguns or shotguns or any other small arm.

[john154]

Hah. I'd read "Garand" instead of "carbine." My bad. I think we're trying to prove differnt points here. I pulled the sten gun option out of my hat because above i nthe thread guys were sayin "why use a bolt action when you can have a AR-15." I mean to steer the discussion away from modern rifles because you likely won't find one if you stuck at grandpa's place and rummaging through the basement...or if you live in canada.

[Faran Brigo]

In the U.S. there's a chance grampa came back from 'nam, so you might find an M16A1 or an AR actually.

The point I'm trying to make is that the zombie survival guide's foolishness of a bolt action being better than a semiauto rifle in a zed outbreak all other things being equal is absurd.

It's true, if it's going to take you a couple of secs to get another shot ready it will force you to TRY make your shots count. But that's like tossing a kid who doesn't know how to swim into a pool without a life jacket so he "tries harder". You'll be more careful aiming no doubt, but if you don't get the hang of it, you might not get the chance to learn from your mistakes.

No amount of pressure or time between reloads however will make you better at firing if you don't practice and train for fire discipline, that's true with all kinds of firearms, not just rifles. Besides I'd rather waste a few bullets than get bitten, bullets I can get, a cure for zombification ehhh...

[mattifikation]

Soo.. you'll make an argument for nail-shooting paintball guns, but not bolt action rifles?

You asked for pros and cons. I told you a pro: no mags. It doesn't sound like a big pro, until you don't have any mags.

When they get close enough that you need fast reloading, they're also close enough to switch to a PDW, Submachine gun, or sidearm.

I'm not saying I'd pass over an AR15 for a Remington 700, but I *am* saying that there are certain people who'd do just fine that way. And I *would* take a nice, accurate bolt-action with a sidearm over an AK-47 any day.

Just like the pro of a big knife: No bullets. The knife sounds useless, until you don't have any bullets.

[Faran Brigo]

Not at all. I suggested a way to make a paintball gun relatively useful if you don't have anything better, if you have a real gun then don't bother with it.

I didn't say the lack of magazines wasn't a good thing, I said I think the benefit is offset by being reduced to 5 shots before each reload, then having to load each round individually.

Alright, we didn't say anything about combos, but if you'd pass an AK for a bolt action, then why wouldn't you pass an AR15 over a bolt action if the AR15 is not nearly as tough as either the bolt action OR the AK47?

A knife (REGULAR knife, not a ghurka khukuri or customized blade) sounds useless (as a weapon) bullets or no bullets, and if it isn't a combat knife is IS completely useless. No knife will chop or pierce through bone easily which means any attempts to kill a zed with one must involve jamming it through a thin area, like the temples, eye sockets, back of the head, etc. and that takes skill and practice which most of us just don't have. Dismemberment is out of the question, and damaging muscles to reduce mobility is feasible, but it still leaves you with a zombie still attacking and very close to you. Getting a combat knife that is forged in one piece is about as easy as getting an axe which is better than the knife and can be used as a tool too.

Personally, I belong to the group of people that only knows two ways to use a knife, stab and cut, so I'd rather run or carry the weight in ammo than try to fight a zombie with a knife.

[mattifikation]

I'd pick a bolt action over an AK because of accuracy. I'd pick the AR15 over the bolt action because the AR is accurate enough for most work and is a better compromise between accuracy and capacity.

[bandits1]

I'd pick a bolt action over an AK because of accuracy. I'd pick the AR15 over the bolt action because the AR is accurate enough for most work and is a better compromise between accuracy and capacity.
You mean you'd pick a bolt-action over an AK if you had a solid sidearm to back it up, right?

You wouldn't make the same choice if the weapon you selected was your only weapon, would you? That would be insane.

[JakAttak]

never have 1 gun always more.

[mattifikation]

Yes, yes, that's definitely what I meant. I wouldn't go sole bolt action unless I didn't have a choice.

[JakAttak]

good idea

My post is too short.

[stonyman65]

Bolt action rifles are just as effective as any other rifle if not more effective.

A trained shooter can deliver just as many accurate shots with a bolt action rifle as someone with a semi automatic rifle.

Also, do to the fact that you have to conserve your ammunition, you will have to pick your shots. this will also get rid of the "Rambo" syndrome of shooting wildly without aiming.

[stonyman65]

also on the subject of cartridges, I would go with the smallest, lightest caliber that you can find (short of the .17HMR or .22LR)

why? because the lighter and smaller the cartridge, the more controllable and the more you can carry.

The sole reason why I chose the 1911 with the heavy .45ACP cartridge is because that is what I train with and I can shoot that better than anything. I would be more focused on getting my ass out of town than shooting zombies.

within 15 yards, any caliber has enough penetration power to kill a zombie, you just have to hit a vital spot (the head). but, I plan to do that anyways so what caliber is better doesn't matter to me.

[Faran Brigo]

A trained shooter can deliver just as many accurate shots with a bolt action rifle as someone with a semi automatic rifle. The BEF during WW1 was so good at this that the advancing Germans thought they were using machineguns. How many people can pull this off? you tell me, after the professional army was expended during the early stages of WW1 this never happened again on the western front. But yes, trained shooters are effective you got a good point there.

However, if you're expecting me to believe with equally competent shooters that the guy that has to reload 5 times by hand and cycle the bolt manually can down the same amount of targets in the same amount of time than the one who doesn't have to do either of those, I'm sorry, I'm afraid you're going to have to show your work.

[bandits1]

Bolt action rifles are just as effective as any other rifle if not more effective.

A trained shooter can deliver just as many accurate shots with a bolt action rifle as someone with a semi automatic rifle.

Also, do to the fact that you have to conserve your ammunition, you will have to pick your shots. this will also get rid of the "Rambo" syndrome of shooting wildly without aiming.
I, too, find it impossible that two shooters of equal skill - one with a 30 round AR-15 and one with a 5-or-10 round bolt-action - would be able to put down the same amount of targets in the same amount of time.

And while I agree that it's best to try and aim carefully and make every round count, I would feel better having the option(and ammo-capacity) of going "Rambo" if I so choose. I don't want the measly five-round capacity of my weapon dictating what I can and can't do.

Like Faran Brigo mentioned earlier in this thread: the best way to make someone a more effective combatant in a life-and-death situation isn't by taking away most of their bullets.

[john154]

Again now we're getting into AR vs War Rifle and thats not fair to the War Rifle. Of course the modern assualt rifle is the wiser choice and you'd be a fool to choose otherwise given the option but don't discount grandpa so readily. The old gun's still a shit kicker.

[Hitman]

I'd much rather take my FAL over my arisaka , or carl gustav , or mauser , or any hunting rifle that I own. however , from a safe enough place I can put the 5 shots to very good use that I have.

if all I had was my win mod 70 I don't think I'd go doing house clarance drills anytime soon. then again I don't plan on using my FAl for that either.

[Faran Brigo]

Again now we're getting into AR vs War Rifle and thats not fair to the War Rifle...

Of course bolt action rifles are respectable, they weren't the standard firearm of so many nations for so long without good reason. Their disadvantages are nullified if you're not in immediate danger or have some room or obstacles between you and your target. Most of them have loads that would put 7.62 NATO to shame.

Of course the modern assualt rifle is the wiser choice and you'd be a fool to choose otherwise given the option but don't discount grandpa so readily.

So far, three people have said exactly that a bolt action is preferable to an assault rifle. The point I'm trying to stress here, and probably the other guys will agree here is exactly what you've said there, in most cases it's foolish to choose the bolt action over the assault rifle.

[JakAttak]

honestly but a main point is in most places you are more likely to find ammo for hunting rifles than assault rifles.

[Hitman]

honestly but a main point is in most places you are more likely to find ammo for hunting rifles than assault rifles.

doubtfull . most places keep more .223 and 7.62X39 on hand than .300weatherby mag or .375 winchester. if a place is looted or otherwise ransacked its doubtfull you'll find much more than a few loose .22's

[Faran Brigo]

Well he's got half a point there, in the U.S. it's common to find intermediate rifle rounds, in most other countries however those are military/LE only weapons, so, you'll have a better chance of finding something like 30-30 or 30-06 than 5.56 ot 7.62.

[mattifikation]

After awhile, the "weird rounds" might be all that's left, just because there's fewer people going after them. A new store just opened in my area, they've got some Mauser M98's for sale for like 70 bucks. Any gun-savvy people here think it's a good deal?

[JakAttak]

I before before E except after C.
and uhhh maybe. I buy guns for hunting and target practice so f**k if I know.

[Faran Brigo]

After awhile, the "weird rounds" might be all that's left, just because there's fewer people going after them.

WE would take the common rounds, I think most people would just go with the biggest gun they see and perhaps not even the correct ammunition.

[mattifikation]

We should encourage that. Because when we find those people, they'll still have the guns and ammo, and there's a possibility that one or the other would be useful. :evil:

[Hitman]

if I find anything I'm taking it. at best I can use it at worst I could diassemble it and use the componets . I think most would do the rake the shelf into the box method rather than look real closely at what their grabbing.

[Faran Brigo]

Not a big fan of the travel light concept huh?

[Hitman]

Not a big fan of the travel light concept huh?

not really . this is what I carry (I've swapped some out but basicly the same) every day . the daily loadout would probly be quite a bit more if I was worried about getting overrun by zeds at any moment .

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/bobsboobs/dailycarry.jpg

[Faran Brigo]

Is that a Browning HP beside the cell phone? and a scope under the car keys? That knife you got there in the middle looks just lovely.

Back to rifles though. The one advantage I see with bolt rifles that assault rifles can't match is the ability to deliver very powerful rounds accurately. I know the M21 is not replacing the M24 for a reason, right?

[Hitman]

the black pistol is my tarus PT945c , .45acp with a spare 10rd mag . the smaller one is an AMT .380 backup . at the time I carried 2 flashlights. the black one was too bright for some uses + it has a kind of short battery life. I now carry a much better compromise between the 2. the knife is my benchmade . I usually carry my CRTK M16 to keep the expensive benchmade from being abused . I do carry it still when I'm getting dressed up.

I do swap between between the .45 and my G19 9mm . and sometimes I carry my 1911 .

[JakAttak]

are you schizophrenic?

[Hitman]

no ,why do you ask?

[Dave Of The Dead]

Hey, If you got a license to carry that shit, why not?

[Faran Brigo]

no ,why do you ask?

Because he doesn't even know what schizophrenia is.

For my part, I say kudos to you, "always prepared" is not a bad motto.

[Hitman]

Because he doesn't even know what schizophrenia is.

For my part, I say kudos to you, "always prepared" is not a bad motto.

thanks , most everyone I know has their CCW or is getting it. I bought it for my 2 brothers for christmass this year.

[JakAttak]

I'm just saying you could start a gang war with what's in your pockets.

[Hitman]

I'm just saying you could start a gang war with what's in your pockets.

yoy should see what I carry when I plan for bad things .

[JakAttak]

I'd rather not. do you ride around in tanks. when this goes down I'm grouping up with you.

[mattifikation]

I think everyone's grouping with Hitman, if he'll have us all. :-)
I think I drooled a bit at that big knife.

The sale ended on the mauser rifles :-(
I'm still curious though, is that a decent zed rifle and caliber?

[Slayer]

It'll easily put the zombies down, but 8mm has risen a lot in price the past couple years. For a bolt action surplus rifle, I recommend the Mosin Nagant, you can get one of those for about $70 and ammo is real cheap in sealed metal tins, great for storage.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Russian_M44.html

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/ammo-for-rifles/7-62x54r/p/7-62x54r-bulgarian-light-ball-fmj-ammo%2C-steel-case%2C-440-rd-tins-/cPath/12_42/products_id/1789

[john154]

The Mauser action is one of the best bolt actions ever produced. 8mm Mause is uber powerful like the strike of Thor's war hammer. The rifles are also much higher quality then Mosin Nagats but sadly the ammo is much more expensive and surplus ammo isn't readily available.

[JakAttak]

why not use a good .223?

[john154]

why not use a good .223?

Because we're talking about bolt-action rifles and .223 is a smallish round that is better suited to repeating rifles. I hate to say it but "Duh".

[Hitman]

why not use a good .223?

a good .223 would make a pretty decent anti-zombie weapon. I accualy tried to buy one at an auction a couple of weekends ago . it was a savage 112 with a bull barrel threaded for a suppresor. the problem with the .22 caliber rifles is that when you slow them down your left with a .22lr shooting subsonic bullets. the .30 caliber and larger rifles have much more punch and range when going subsonic.

[Slayer]

The Mauser action is one of the best bolt actions ever produced. 8mm Mause is uber powerful like the strike of Thor's war hammer. The rifles are also much higher quality then Mosin Nagats but sadly the ammo is much more expensive and surplus ammo isn't readily available.

True, I remember a couple years ago when 8mm Mauser ammo was actually cheaper than 7.62X54, and the rifles were common under $100. Unfortunately those day's are gone for the Mauser, the Mosin Nagant and 7.62X54 ammo is the cheapest option now. I like the Mauser, but the Mosin Nagant isn't bad, it's a rugged war horse too.

[detpat]

i used to have a post war Czech k98 clone. It was a great deer rifle when i was a kid and couldn't afford 30-06 for the remmie 700. i traded it off to a buddy last summer when the 8mm was really startin to take off.

I still have a rock Island 1903 which is a hell of a rifle. takes the long bayonet like my 1897 too. [i think the shottie's sticker is actually for an enfield]

I think most bolt action battle rifles are a bit overpowered for zeds though, unless you're thinking about some reach out and touch action.

here's my 1897 takedown riotgun, i was gonna post a pic of this and the 1903 together with my other 1897 but can't locate that pic.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/harrybeck/DSC09226.jpg

[bandits1]

^^^I like the Steyr MA1. I always thought it and the previous-generation M-series were some of the nicest polymer pistols out there.

[detpat]

I like it allot. It makes a great suppressor host too. I'm always torn between the latest thing and my love of the classics. I have a small collection of colt detective special versions and savage pocket pistols. I just love em all.

I guess I'm not a classic or modern gun guy, I'm just a gun guy!

[Dave Of The Dead]

Would a lever-action basically have the same pros and cons as a bolt-action?

[JakAttak]

lever actions not as common.

[Faran Brigo]

Some, but not all. Lever actions are faster to work and a lot of them have more than 5 shots per reload but at the end of the day it's a marginal improvement overall. I've heard they're not as reliable as the bolt action rifles though, but I don't have any first hand experience. Like Jak said, they're not all that common nowdays.

[detpat]

lever actions aren't as reliable as bolt guns, but they are both so reliable that the difference is negligible. Mostly. In a combat situation the boltguns are gonna have quite an edge in heat management and tolerance to fouling.

Lever actions are usually not as strong as bolt guns, some of the heavy caliber marlins notwithstanding. I used to have a marlin .444 that was a beast.

Basically, lever guns are made for sport applications and many boltguns were originally meant for combat use and adapted for other apps.

[JakAttak]

yea a bolt action rifle will not let you down.

[Trumble0]

Ahhh... Tokarev TT Pistols in your picture I presume? Are they the 9mm Chinese clones or the original 7.62 x 25 mm? cause those ones can bark. =]

[Trumble0]

My last post was for Detpat, sorry.

[Trumble0]

As for Bolt action rifles, I own 3 and out of all of them, My Mosin Nagant 91/30 has the shortest action. My Savage 111 30-06 feels like i have to pull the bolt back about 3 feet to load in another cartridge,, but with the weight of my Mosin and the Bayonet, Id be more than comfortable if I found an elevated position on a roof or something. Plus you can get 300 rounds of 7.62x54r for about 100$ went up in price a bit, and you have to special order it around here. But I have about 2,000 30-06 rounds cause I reload... so it would be a tough choice. but as for semi autos in the house, probably the most reliable is the Ruger 10-22, or the Mossberg Plinkster... but for power, I think my Bolts have an advantage, though I should probably get a good larger caliber semi and I'd probably take that in case of outbreak. Ive been partial to the M-14 but theyre a pretty penny around here... too bad the US won't let us import the Norinco Copies like Canada gets.

[IronJayBee]

Bolt action rifles are excellent from a fortified position, but when on the run i would rather have an automatic and leave it on single fire setting. When in a pinch for stopping power i could switch to automatic setting if i had to.

[detpat]

actually both. that particular one is a Chinese 913 in 9mm, but you can actually convert it back to the original caliber pretty easily with the right parts. the others are Polish tt's and a Romanian. real barker as you say!

[Mitchell Withrow]

Noobs

. One shot to the head KILLS. Or if you damage the Spinal Cord. You have to take in consideration of where you are .

So just get something powerful, and has semi automatic. Semi because you can't waste to much ammo.You know the whole (6 billion people in the world)

You're going to need a SCOPE, and on top of all this, SILENCER! do you want to attract MORE ZOMBIES ?

I think you can hear a shot from 4 miles away. This isn't the movies. 100000 zbos can probably push through a brick wall. In the survival guide it says they have a hightened senses. SO THEREFORE, Zombies would **** you up no matter where you are if you shot a loud weapon.

[Trumble0]

IMO, if you're going to get a bolt action, get an old Military Bolt rifle, that can be fed Via Stripper clips and it would drastically cut down on the "con" of bolt actions having a slow reloading rate. My Buddy bought about 30 stripper clips for his Mosin, and it is a cinch to load, jam the clip in and press the rounds down into the Magazine with your thumb. and spent/empty stripper clips take up far less room than empty detachable box mags.Old Military bolt action rifles can often be field stripped with minimal tools usually the bayonet or a bullet can be used to take apart the rifle to clean. I think Armies probably designed rifles back in the day with the assumption that the rifles would probably be cleaned twice. At the beginning of the war and then at the end of the war once the fighting was over :naughty:

[redskul83]

I would like a bold action, they almost never jam, and having to strip and clean a gun while getting eaten is worse then having a lower RPM.

[Faran Brigo]

You don't have to strip and clean a gun to fix a jam. Most of the time the jams are due to ammo misfiring and all you need to do is disengage the magazine, then clear the round by working the bolt manually.

You strip and clean guns regularly, depending on how many rounds you shoot, the kind of ammo (corrosive or non corrosive primers, bullet material, etc.) and the way you treat your gun, but it should be done at least twice a month. This is a good habit regardless of what firearm you're using as it will ensure long life for the components and will improve accuracy.

[JakAttak]

I clean my bolt action after every shooting.

[detpat]

you should clean any gun after shooting. the main advantage of military bolt guns is durability and heat management. civvie bolt guns can overheat and cause problems under combat conditions. cracked stocks and other wood-metal interface problems can occur too.

any rifle you may have to bet your life on should have a small tool kit that you can carry. a broken shell extractor, brushes, cleaning gear, weapon specific wrenches etc.mmi have a kit of these items for my ar's, ak's and my Mle 49-56.

[stark55]

bolt action s and breach loaders have done themselves proud for years and i wouldn't hesitate to grab one. mot to say it would be my primary weapon but its still on the check list. personally i dont like most modern assault rifles but thats more a point of style than any thing functional. i would want something like a p90 or something like that and a carbine.

[detpat]

something to remember is that the milsurps were used in a couple world wars and were designed for combat. you just need to understand the appropriate techniques and rules of usage. do it the classic way and don't try to spontaneously re invent the wheel on your own.

[NickelobLight]

Here goes.

Those that said Nagant? Keep in mind the 7.62x54 is a beast of a round for repetitive shooting. That being said, if you can handle it, you've got enough stopping power to bring down just about anything on two legs.

Like Mitchell Withrow said, you want to stay quiet. A .22LR, while a puny round, is as noiseless as a rifle round gets. You're not hunting bear, you're puncturing a human skull. A decent .22LR will EASILY stay accurate at 50 yards if you know what you're doing. If you're on the ground and a zombie is more than 50 yards away, you walk away. If you're elevated? Then it really doesn't matter if it's bolt action or semi-auto.

However, if you're actively hunting the zombies in a group yourself, your weapon depends on your job. A good military bolt action is fine if you've got a guy, (or woman), perched up high watching over everybody. For the folks on the ground, yeah. A semi-auto would be preferable.

However, make no mistake. Newer military rifles are largely made up of composites. Not a lot of heft to them if you need to bash a head with your buttstock. An Enfield? It would be like dropping a cinder block on a zombie's head.

But yeah, as has been stated, Mosin-Nagants are the new cheap surplus military rifle. I was at Gander Mountain on Saturday, and they had at least a dozen for $150 each. A local mom-and-pop firearm store I was at on Friday sells them with a rifle-specific tool kit for $110. The problem with Nagants though is the action on the bolt. They are probably the least smooth bolt I've ever operated.

Remember this also. It's the same argument as a revolver versus a semi-auto. Revolvers don't jam, but they hold less ammo, (except for my old roomate's 9-shot .22LR revolver...but that's another story). Bolt-actions rarely jam, and when you have a dud in the chamber, they're much quicker to eject.

It all comes down to availability and preference. I am far more accurate with a Nagant than an AK-47 or an SKS, (cheaper assault rifles). However, firing a zeroed in AR-15 with iron sights, I can easily take out a 4-inch clay pigeon at 120 yards, practically without trying, (of course the problem is that a bare-bones AR-15 will run you at LEAST $650). A decently equipped one will take you into four figures. Not a lot of people have that to drop on a rifle, when for a quarter of the price you can get an SKS. My advice? Get what you're comfortable with and practice with it. Practice practice practice. A .22LR in the hands of someone who regularly trains with it is FAR more dangerous than some yahoo with an AK. You dig?

And for the record I am most comfortable with my Mossberg. Not a long-range weapon by any means, but when the zombies are far away, I'm not too concerned about them. For a rifle? My daddy's old .303 Enfield.

{EDIT: It's my dad's until I go back down to Tampa to pick it up!}

[Panther7]

Althogh i like to keep it semi-auto, bolt actions are great for longer ranges and for people with less self control and skill. also they have much more avalibilty ammo wise

[JakAttak]

I don't believe the old M1 Garand or carbine has been mentioned both venerable both easily acquired massive amounts of ammo for both.

[bandits1]

I don't believe the old M1 Garand or carbine has been mentioned both venerable both easily acquired massive amounts of ammo for both.
Isn't this thread about bolt-action rifles?

[JakAttak]

v. semi-automatic like M1 family.

[Panther7]

not really i just said i like semi auto better as a side note...

[mattifikation]

I thought of one very obvious pro for bolt actions: In some countries, they're the best you're allowed to have! lol

[Faran Brigo]

In those countries you're also allowed to have shotguns. Yeah shotguns aren't ideal, but neither are bolt actions in most situations I think, so...

Between a bolt action rifle (5 round magazine) and pump action shotgun (7 round capacity), which one would be preferable? this is considering the usual ammo weight, size, availability and such.

[detpat]

military boltgun and stripper clips or even mags like some, you are gonna be able to maintain a much higher rate of fire than the shotgun over a longer period of time.

consider that most shotgun hulls are made of plastic and you can predict the problem that's gonna develop in short order.

[bandits1]

In those countries you're also allowed to have shotguns. Yeah shotguns aren't ideal, but neither are bolt actions in most situations I think, so...

Between a bolt action rifle (5 round magazine) and pump action shotgun (7 round capacity), which one would be preferable? this is considering the usual ammo weight, size, availability and such.
If I had to choose one or the other as my one-and-only firearm? The shotgun...no doubt. I think it's far more versatile.

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/8689/shotguntacticalpumpiz7.jpg

...so I won't be able to hit targets 300+ yards away? Who cares? I'm more concerned with the ones that are only 10 yards away.

[mattifikation]

Doubt you'd be allowed to have that sucker in Canada or the UK.

Sure wouldn't mind having one here though. My shotgun's just a hunting gun :-/

[Panther7]

In those countries you're also allowed to have shotguns. Yeah shotguns aren't ideal, but neither are bolt actions in most situations I think, so...

Between a bolt action rifle (5 round magazine) and pump action shotgun (7 round capacity), which one would be preferable? this is considering the usual ammo weight, size, availability and such. in almost any other situation i would pick the bolt action but for zombies, i'm gonna agree with Bandits, the shotgun would be the best choice

[Tripoli]

military boltgun and stripper clips or even mags like some, you are gonna be able to maintain a much higher rate of fire than the shotgun over a longer period of time.

consider that most shotgun hulls are made of plastic and you can predict the problem that's gonna develop in short order.

:clap: A good bold action rifle, in the hands of a person who skilled is an excellent choice for z-day.

[bhk2000]

I love a good bolt-action rifle but if you want something between bolt and semi, lever action is the way to go. typicaly more accurate than a semi but faster rate of fire than a bolt. also a lever action can hold more rounds than a bolt.
I have a lever action .22 that holds 15 rounds. i go out to the desert and shoot milk jugs about 75 yards away. I used to have a semi-auto .22 but found that i didnt take enough time to place my shot b/c with a semi-auto it seems to be more trial and error than anything else. with a lever or bolt action you make every round count.

[bandits1]

I love a good bolt-action rifle but if you want something between bolt and semi, lever action is the way to go. typicaly more accurate than a semi but faster rate of fire than a bolt. also a lever action can hold more rounds than a bolt.
I have a lever action .22 that holds 15 rounds. i go out to the desert and shoot milk jugs about 75 yards away. I used to have a semi-auto .22 but found that i didnt take enough time to place my shot b/c with a semi-auto it seems to be more trial and error than anything else. with a lever or bolt action you make every round count.
I understand what you mean, and that's fine-and-dandy when you're shooting milk jugs, but I don't want the limitations of my firearm to force me to "make every round count". I want to have the choice to spray-and-pray if I want to.

But I agree that a lever-action is probably more handy than a bolt-action as a one-and-only gun.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2876/dscf0284kv0.jpg

[mattifikation]

i didnt take enough time to place my shot b/c with a semi-auto it seems to be more trial and error than anything else. with a lever or bolt action you make every round count.

What? Seriously? That's an issue of training and discipline, not what type of gun you were using. Just because you have more bullets doesn't mean you should waste them. That would kind of defeat the purpose of lugging all those bullets around, wouldn't it?

It'd be like saying, "Well, it's bad to have condoms because you might be tempted to pick up chicks at an AIDS rally." No, not if you're smart about it...

Anyways, as to the bolt vs. lever debate, all I have to add is that there's probably a reason why the most well-funded militaries in the world still have use for one and not the other.

[Trumble0]

Well the main Issue I have with Lever actions vs. Bolts is that you don't get the variety of bullet styles with a Lever action... to my knowledge you can't use Spitzer/Spire points because the bullets are lined up nose to primer in a lever action, and if you have a sharp nosed round and you shoot the gun, the recoil can touch off the rounds in the mag, therefore its all blunt nosed high grain bullets, Im not sure about Hollowpoints. I personally don't own a Lever action, but my dad has a Marlin 30/30. For all intents and purposes it's a nice Deer rifle, and works pretty good for the cows and pigs around the farm. Anyone who has seen that Olde Tyme Show "The Rifleman" Intro, if not youtube it. Probably one of the single most bad ass things ive ever seen someone do with a gun. I'm just so used to Bolt actions that I wouldn't outright want a Lever action, if it's all I could find, yeah I'd use it. With a .30 caliber rifle you might get 7 rounds as opposed to 5 rounds in the bolt action, but with the door on the side of the reciever, you can't use stripper clips or detachable box mags like you can in some Bolts, so I think you'd be paying for those 2 extra rounds with a slower reloading time when you eventually had to reload. But yeah, I'd pick up a lever action before a semi-auto if it was a Small caliber... for instance a .22 because the round is already pretty weak, you figure in the gas used to cycle in the next round for a semi-auto and you've made the round even weaker, whereas the Bolt and lever action use pretty much all the gas for propulsion.

[bootsy]

we use both lever and bolt action rifles on my farm and i have to say the bolt action is much more reliable and rugged i have HEARD of instances where a farmer has gotten so angry at missing a 'roo that he has broken the lever action on his gun ( i should stress that i have heard this and never seen it) where as i have never seen or heard of a bolt action rifles bolt breaking. besides the bolt action has been used and still is being used by some armies for ages so realy if a weapon can stand up to 100+ years of military use and improvement and come out the other end still being used by snipers then i think the question has been answered. ( how many times have i had this argument with my mates?!:x)

[Bob]

Bootsy
"it is better to know a little bit about everything than a lot about a little bit."

It's called being a Jack of all trades and a master of none.


Bolt guns have their place but I don't think it is as a primary weapon in the ZPAW unless you are a dedicated to a sniper role. Even then a good semi like a M1A will do the job nicely at reasonable ranges. They are very common and the chances of finding one while on a mission of acquisition in the housing areas would be high. I would say use any you find in a support role and when the ammo for it runs out, oil it up good and set it aside till you find some more.

Here is a question for you.
If you and your team have several bolt guns you have recovered should you use it till the ammo is totally gone or switch out to something else reserving some ammo. If you reserve some how much should you keep when you retire the rifle?

Another question.
How much ammo do "normal" people keep on hand for their shotgun and bolt rifle?

[bootsy]

It's called being a Jack of all trades and a master of none.


Bolt guns have their place but I don't think it is as a primary weapon in the ZPAW unless you are a dedicated to a sniper role. Even then a good semi like a M1A will do the job nicely at reasonable ranges. They are very common and the chances of finding one while on a mission of acquisition in the housing areas would be high. I would say use any you find in a support role and when the ammo for it runs out, oil it up good and set it aside till you find some more.

Here is a question for you.
If you and your team have several bolt guns you have recovered should you use it till the ammo is totally gone or switch out to something else reserving some ammo. If you reserve some how much should you keep when you retire the rifle?

Another question.
How much ammo do "normal" people keep on hand for their shotgun and bolt rifle?
thanks for that i don't know were i heard it but i live by that motto


IMHO i would use the guns till we had one clip left in each and then i would retire them (but ill probably die from boredom before they get to me.)


well we keep 200 rounds on the farm but most farmers don't keep that much because its to much bother to keep them clean and stuff.

[CAVU45]

Let's try to put this into perspective. When would one type rifle be preferable over another type rifle? And is there a single type that is as Bob put it a "Jack of all trades..."?

Bolt action rifles are wonderful weapons..for what they are. They are simple in design and simple to learn to use and would be fairly easy to repair. In an urban environment though they would be a detriment to survival due to the slower rate of fire and slow reload times. I said slower rate of fire because the old bolt can be worked very quickly by a skilled rifleman (note I didn't say Marksman or Sharpshooter). As an example I refer you to the British Army during WWI and ask you to read about what the called the "Mad Minute". The Rifleman would fire (in concert with his Platoon mates) 30 aimed rounds in one minute. That's a pretty good rate of fire for the stiff SMLE bolt. As a general rule though that rate of fire wouldn't be applied to the average person. The bolt action can really "reach out and touch someone", but in reality what good is that in such an environment? While one is concentrating on the zed 1,000 yards away ten others are biting him on the ass.

Semi-auto assault style or assault rifles are magnificent modern rifles with a high rate of fire and fast reload times. In an urban environment they would be the gun to go to hands down. They have the ability to reach out and hit the enemy at respectable distances and have the rate of fire to take out the ones that got close. But they are more difficult to repair and harder to learn to use than their bolt action counterparts. There will be the compulsion to lay on the trigger and "spray and pray" in some situations wasting valuable ammunition. They are (with a few exceptions such as the SKS) magazine fed and magazines are the weak link in these rifles.

Lever guns are in a class by themselves. They are the iconic gun of the American west and still the rifle of choice for most deer hunters and ranchers. They are relatively light and have a decent rate of fire. Range is decent at 300+ yards with new, modern ammunition like the Hornady Leverevolution bullets. But it suffers due to a reload time that is longer than a bolt action rifle.

A woodland environment would tend to even the odds for all these classes with rate of fire being close to similar for all due to the obstacles in the line of sight. The edge would go to the magazine fed weapon simply due to the quicker reload time.

I deliberately left out shotguns for what (to me at least) are obvious reasons. Slow reload time, slow rate of fire, and short range all combine to make these weapons the last gun to want in a ZPAW.

In the end though it all comes down to what one has and how good one is with the weapon, in essence "Ya run wut ya brung". So whatever your personal or only weapon is, train with it like you'll fight with it.

[detpat]

very good post. I concur on all counts.

[CAVU45]

Thanks. To me it's simply common sense with a bit of knowledge. IMHO, and I mean no offense to anyone this is simply my observation, there are many who get their ideas about firearms (and weapons in general), what they can do, and how to use them from fiction books and movies which are usually poorly researched and/or used wrongly for the sake of the plot or "artistic expression".

[kiltedninja]

The Lee-Enfield has a bit of an advantage since it's got 10 rounds capacity. The problem with the Enfield, I've heard, is finding adequate ammo in quantity. There's still surplus ammo that uses cordite instead of nitrocelulose, and it will corrode the barrel if you don't clean it regularly.

But former commonwealth countries have plenty of surplus ammo, so I guess it's not much of a problem. In the U.S. though, good luck finding enough .303 british.

By the by, the .308 can also penetrate more than one skull, but I think it would be very rare that you actually get the opportunity to take advantage of that. It's not like they march towards you in straight lines like WW1 soldiers.

I have a Lee Enfield that was made in the sixties, it uses the 7.62 round.
If you have one of the later models like I do, then you're set, problem is, it's with my dad, who lives twenty miles away, through the busiest parts of the city.
We also have an M1A, and given a choice, I'd go with the M1A, because it's got a higher mag capacity(20 rounds), but if I had to, I'd take my Enfield.
I can obviously shoot faster with the M1A, but my rate of fire with my LE is pretty decent too. Accuracy is a little better with the LE, but the M1A is still great. They chamber the same round, and I have a small cleaning kit hole in the stocks of both.
It all comes down to what I have, and where I am. If I could get ahold of my dad's pistol as well, which he'd likely have on his person, then I'd take my LE, if not, I'd go with the semi-auto M1A. I'd take what I could get, when I could get it. My motto for life: When all else fails, improvise.

[Bob]

I've never been much for bolt guns.
Not that I don't respect them and what can be done with them.
I am just a fan of having lots of shots.
It's easy to spend more on a scope than you did on the rifle.

If I had to grab and run with a rifle a bolt gun would not be my first or even third choice.

[joerrrrrr]

I think a bolt rifle would only be nice if your just picking zombies off from atop a building. I find the reload to slow and the capacity to small to much use beyond that.

[CAVU45]

I've been thinking about this ammunition capacity issue. Having 20-30 rounds fo lead is a major plus, but should that be the over riding reason for choosing a weapon? Tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that if a person were in a position where he/she had to use 30 rounds of ammo in one setting then that person has either hung around in one place far too longor is in a hell of alot more trouble than 30 rounds of ammo will get him out of. Don't get me wrong, my weapon of choice will be my Bushmaster M4, but for reasons other than the magazine capacity. I feel however that I would be served nearly as well with my Marlin 336 lever gun.

[Darkness]

"Please don't laugh, I know this is a stupid question, but it's how I learn..."

"A bolt action is the one located on top that slides back to admit the bullet into the firing chamber. A lever action is the one located on the bottom, like the Rifleman's gun. Is there a third one? Or are those the only two choices in a rifle?" :think:

[CAVU45]

You have two of them.

Bolt action works by actuating the bolt handle on top back and forth to chamber and eject a round.

Lever action is like the Riflemans gun.

Pump action is just like the shotgun, with the slide pump below the barrel.

Semi auto I believe you're familiar with.

[Darkness]

You have two of them.

Bolt action works by actuating the bolt handle on top back and forth to chamber and eject a round.

Lever action is like the Riflemans gun.

Pump action is just like the shotgun, with the slide pump below the barrel.

Semi auto I believe you're familiar with.

"Yes, I am." :)

"I know about the other gus too, but I just like to refresh my knowlege once in a while. The only one I've owned myself is the semi-automatic, but I have shot many others. Thanks for responding." :)

[kiltedninja]

I think lever actions are cool, but I don't know much about them.

[CAVU45]

Lever guns are so much fun to shoot! I love shooting both of mine. I own a 1984 Winchester 94 and a new Marlin 336, both in 30-30. They're handy rifles though a bit on the heavy side, heavier than an AR rifle. Caliber choices aren't big in the guns, but they make up for it in versatility. One big advantage they have is coming in pistol calibers, so you could have a rifle and pistol that shoot the same cartridge. Pretty handy when you're running and gunning, only having to carry a single caliber. That's one reason they were so popular in the old west. Lever guns are pretty accurate and when fitted with a scope and modern ammunition can reach out to 300+ yards. Along with the old west history they are well known as deer guns.

[the_velociraptor]

I remember some arguments for bolt action, namely, being the fact you're able to keep track of your bullets easier and someting about accuracy.

Zombie warfare throws that right out the window. I'd take a Dragunov (if there was one) or a semi-auto hunting rifle any day.

[CAVU45]

I don't know about the keeping track of bullets thing, by which I think you mean counting your shots or how much ammo you have left in the gun. I was trained to count my shots on semi-autos and that bled over into the military with assault rifles even on full auto. Bolt guns are on average more accurate than semis though.

I agree with you on the semis! I'd want nothing less myself, though I have been giving my old lever gun a second look of late.

I thought I saw something about a huge recall on Dragunovs recently. I don't know what it was all about.

[Redfields]

I don't know about the keeping track of bullets thing, by which I think you mean counting your shots or how much ammo you have left in the gun. I was trained to count my shots on semi-autos and that bled over into the military with assault rifles even on full auto. Bolt guns are on average more accurate than semis though.

I agree with you on the semis! I'd want nothing less myself, though I have been giving my old lever gun a second look of late.

I thought I saw something about a huge recall on Dragunovs recently. I don't know what it was all about.

Agreed. Semi-auto ftw. Bolt actions are cool though, just like the feel of one. If I had to choose, I would still take the Semi-Auto.

Though, this is Pros and Cons OF Bolt action rifles. I would say pros cuz it is more accurate and you can keep track of the bullets you have fired/ have left. Cons... probably reloading?

[CAVU45]

More accurate? For the most part I would agree. The bullet count thing is no different than for any other weapon system. It's all in the training. Slow to reaload? Yep. Slower than a semi anyway, but faster than a lever gun, especially if it can be loaded with stripper clips like most old battle rifles. I would think the biggest drawbacks are the slower rate of fire and the fewer cartridges one can hold.

[Redfields]

More accurate? For the most part I would agree. The bullet count thing is no different than for any other weapon system. It's all in the training. Slow to reaload? Yep. Slower than a semi anyway, but faster than a lever gun, especially if it can be loaded with stripper clips like most old battle rifles. I would think the biggest drawbacks are the slower rate of fire and the fewer cartridges one can hold.

Definitely rate of fire. With the semi, you could plant another in them if it does not hit the ground.

[the_velociraptor]

Only thing I can think of is that most rifles with stopping power are bolt-action, exlcusion of Barretts.

[Dave Of The Dead]

Only thing I can think of is that most rifles with stopping power are bolt-action, exlcusion of Barretts.

Does any gun besides a shotgun have any stopping power what so ever? And what is your idea of stopping power anyway? Are you thinking that when you shoot them they will stumble backwards or something? Why would a Bolt action have more stopping power than a semi-auto or lever action? As far as I know any handgun or rifle shot will just go straight through a body. When it comes to zombies, they don't care. They will just keep walking, so what you call "stopping power" with a rife doesn't exist. (This may exclude the .50 cal, I don't know, I've never shot one.)

[CAVU45]

"Stopping power"? That's a pretty ildefined term.

[Bob]

I am only going to define stopping power as it relates to the Zed.

Stopping power the force required for an object to penetrate the skull and sufficiently disrupt the brain.

[CAVU45]

That would work for the purposes of this thread. Too many people use the terms "knockdown power" and "stopping power" interchangeably without really understanding that the terms don't truly exist.

[Birdman44]

I hav a question for you guys. To start, i'm looking at the Mosin Nagant to buy its very cheap right now and it seems like it would be a great buy. Can somebody who owns it and/or has used one tell me about the pros and cons? (i realize it comes an many variants it doesnt matter which one you talk about)

[Dave Of The Dead]

I hav a question for you guys. To start, i'm looking at the Mosin Nagant to buy its very cheap right now and it seems like it would be a great buy. Can somebody who owns it and/or has used one tell me about the pros and cons? (i realize it comes an many variants it doesnt matter which one you talk about)

Con: Loading it. I don't like the style of the internal mag or whatever its called.

[mattifikation]

Mosin Nagant

Pro: It shoots a big bullet that can take, in addition to zombies, large game including grizzly and moose. And those bullets are cheap.

Pro: It's very rugged and reliable, just like most Russian/Soviet designed weapons.

Pro: It's a common gun and can usually be found in gun shops. That means parts should be reasonably available. Plus, it's dirt cheap.

Con: You have to be careful, because some of that ammo is corrosive. Just clean your gun when you're done using it.

Con: Limited ammo capacity, plus the big bullets mean you can't pack as many with you.

Con: Scope mounting isn't the easiest thing in the world. It generally requires some minor modifications, or at least the purchasing of extra parts.

[Birdman44]

Sounds pretty good, I'll have to look into it some more. Thanks:)

[Bob]

Mosin Nagant = Old Old Crap on a Stick

**Edit**
OLD OLD CHEAP RUSSIAN CRAP ON A STICK

Seriously though my life is worth more than $89
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=121469253

[Birdman44]

Mosin Nagant = Old Old Crap on a Stick

**Edit**
OLD OLD CHEAP RUSSIAN CRAP ON A STICK

Seriously though my life is worth more than $89
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=121469253

So is mine, which is why i already have other weapons in front of the Mosin Nagant, but it would be a fun gun to pick off zeds with if it comes down to it. And with the corrosive ammo making me get into the habit of cleaning my guns after every shooting i think it would actually help save my life in an emergency.

[mattifikation]

$89? You overpaid. I got mine on sale for $79.

[Nameless1]

I was thinking of getting a bolt action 30-06 for deer/moose/elk hunting. I have a 30-30 but I thought it wouldn't be big enough for the larger game. In a PAWZ scenario I would use the bolt action for hunting/long range sniping but at close range say scouting or scavenging I would use a carbine (thinking Mini-14.)

[kiltedninja]

Exactly, a bolt action for long range work, and a carbine, shotgun, assault rifle etc. for CQC, I don't think that a bolt action would be very practical for cqc, since they tend to be of the longer variety of weapons with a lower mag capacity. But when you're shooting at say, 100 yards plus, the bolt action is where it's at.

I didn't know that Mosin Nagant were so cheap. I may have to look into one, maybe not though.

[Lian]

Exactly, a bolt action for long range work, and a carbine, shotgun, assault rifle etc. for CQC, I don't think that a bolt action would be very practical for cqc, since they tend to be of the longer variety of weapons with a lower mag capacity. But when you're shooting at say, 100 yards plus, the bolt action is where it's at. h.

Which isn't to say that you couldn't use a bolt action in CQC it's just less practical, but if you got yourself a nice sturdy one you could potentially fire, melee one fall back as you reload, drop a third fall back some more shot the second one etc... Some bolt action also have the potential for a bayonet which basically makes you a short spear which could be effective in Close Quarters against a zed.

I think in a lot of ways that a bolt action may be a superior choice though, one major thing is that they don't jam. Farmer with a rifle vs a commando with a jammed M16...We'll see who wins that one. Other major selling point for me is your less likely to go Rambo and waste all your ammo if you only have one shot and are forced to reload it makes you stop and think about what your doing before you do it.

Keywords I'd look for in any Bolt action:
-durable
-scope ready
-readily available
-simple design
-common caliber

[Birdman44]

I'm pretty sure bolt action rifles have had, are having and will have there fair share of "jamming". When i mean jamming i mean instances in which say the bullet wont come out of the chamber and you have to manually clear it before closing the bolt. It has happened to me before and i wouldnt want it in close quarters when it does, then again ide always have my sidearm :lol: But i think bolt action would be perfect for fun shots at zeds from a ways away.

[CAVU45]

Using a bolt action rifle in CQC, especially as a melee weapon would be tantamount to suicide. Even the so called carbines such as the K98 are large and unwieldy. A bayonet on the end would make it even more so.

Despite numerous claims to the contrary, the AR series rifles are no more prone to "jamming" than any other rifle. The rifle got that reputation from its debut in the jungles of Vietnam when many did in fact fail to function due to a few problems none of which were the fault of the rifle. The powder type was changed before issue to a type the rifle wasn't designed to fire and the rifle was issued without a cleaning kit the Army touting it as a "self cleaning" weapon. With a slight redesign (adding the forward assist) and the ability to use the more common powder type the AR series of rifles have been shown to be accurate and reliable. I would stake my life on it operating properly.

As for going Rambo; that's a discipline problem. The person who would be tempted to flip to full auto unnecessarily would be prone to freeze up and not fire a round from a bolt gun.

[Lian]

No your right the AR isn't necessarily going to jam. To be honest I've only had mine jam once and that was because of a bent bullet. :roll: But I like to keep my guns squeaky clean, I just worry about people out there that don't think to clean em. And then I think about there being AK's out there that have never been cleaned...ever, and still operate.

I'm going to disagree about melee with it though. Sure I wouldn't recommend it but if your in a jam well...the hell else are you going to do when you got a bunch flowing down a hall at you? General running comes in mind but if it's a feasibly manageable number? And one can really reload a bolt action in phenomenal time if you know what your doing.

[CAVU45]

I've never been the most fastidious about gun cleanliness and never had an AR rifle malfunction because of it. When I was in the desert there were times when I couldn't mess around with cleaning a rifle, especially after a full day of running and gunning. I would pull out a can of Birchwood Casey Gunscrubber, spray down the bolt carrier and run a patch or two down the barrel. The rifle performed flawlessly.

Back to bolt guns. You've admitted that it isn't recommended to CQC with a bolt gun, so that's definately one for the con column. If that's all you've got of course you use it. but the key to survival would be to avoid confrontation at all costs, especially with a bolt action.

I'm sure bolt guns can be loaded fairly quickly by a person that practices the procedure regularly. But there aren't that many people around. It's still going out be considerably slower than loading a magazine into a semi auto though.

[Redfields]

Well, bolt guns will always require more skill. Period

With the semi's, the shooter can double tap in case the target does not drop and with the bolt you would have to pullback again, wasting a second or two.

With reloading, I have honestly found it not very much of a problem, like CAV said, it is pretty fast procedure by someone that has practised the movement enough.

A definite Pro of the Bolt rifles is:
Hell better than not having a gun at all.

[Lian]

Usually I'm fairly fast with a bot action providing I'm grabbing shells from a web of some sort usually on the butt of the gun or on my vest. However if there it more than the 10 rounds that those hold required and I'm forced to dig in a pocket for more I'd be worried. :scare: Really for me those two spots are a practiced movement, like you said, but rooting around in a pocket...I just know that crucial round is going to be elusive and I'm going to get ate.

So as a given that you can get bolt action in a variety of tasty calibers what is everyone thinking is ideal against the undead? My .22 plunker might be a nice one to sit on the roof and pop things bashing on my door with, some cold beer I could make a day of it. .223 is good for most applications I suppose and weighs a little less than .308 but at significant ranges that would favor a bolt action rifle the extra punch of the .308 might come in handy especially against human adversaries that might be wearing body armor. I've personally seen a .308 perforate a bullet proof vest from 300 yards, but do you think you'd really need that much pop?

[Redfields]

But with bolt action rifles, you also waste less ammo, actually forcing yourself to take your time for a good connection with the target. With that said, the movement practised for me is just being able to not drop the bullet. Sounds really clumsy but, dont grab too many, seriously, especially for those that have not fired one more than... twice.

[CAVU45]

I personally wouldn't go with a cartridge smaller than a .223 or larger than a .308. That range is readily available and has more than enough power to get the job done at a multitude of ranges.

I see no reason for long range shooting in a ZPAW. It seems to me that you wouldn't want to attract attention to yourself and nothing draws more attention than the bang of a rifle. It's expending precious resources for zero gain. That takes away one of the pros for a bolt gun.

With proper discipline there will be no wasted ammo from a semi-auto. As I posted before, the person who would go spray and pray is the same one who'd panic and forget how to chamber a round in a bolt gun. And if confronting a threat other than a zed I'd want the capability of putting a bit more lead downrange quickly. That won't happen with a bolt action rifle.

[CAVU45]

That kinda brings up another point. Follow up shots. Bolt guns would be slower with a follow up shot. With multiple targets at medium to close range shooting one target and shifting to and addressing the next target will be slower than a semi-auto.

When choosing a caliber I wouldn't worry too much about body armor penetration. Any caliber from .223 up will go through a "bullet proof vest". They were made primarily to stop shrapnel and handgun bullets. A plate carrier with the SAPI installed is another matter entirely. I saw a guy take a 30 caliber round to the chest and he almost instantaneously returned fire. He had a wicked bruise but no other damage at all. Even if a zed were wearing such protection it would be moot.

[bandits1]

But with bolt action rifles, you also waste less ammo, actually forcing yourself to take your time for a good connection with the target. With that said, the movement practised for me is just being able to not drop the bullet. Sounds really clumsy but, dont grab too many, seriously, especially for those that have not fired one more than... twice.
I wouldn't want the limitations of my weapon forcing me to take my time and and forcing me to "connect with the target". I want the option to waste ammo.

[Lian]

When choosing a caliber I wouldn't worry too much about body armor penetration. Any caliber from .223 up will go through a "bullet proof vest". They were made primarily to stop shrapnel and handgun bullets. A plate carrier with the SAPI installed is another matter entirely. I saw a guy take a 30 caliber round to the chest and he almost instantaneously returned fire. He had a wicked bruise but no other damage at all. Even if a zed were wearing such protection it would be moot.

Well I wasn't thinking a zed with a vest I was thinking more the raiders that just took your wife, kid, and all your food while you were out and about, are down there on the open plain would you and your buddies be able to at least take out key leaders with your rifles. Point being that it's not just zombies your going to have to face in the zombie apocalypse so what would you consider best with that in mind?

I wouldn't want the limitations of my weapon forcing me to take my time and and forcing me to "connect with the target". I want the option to waste ammo.

"Don't ask for a task set for your strength, but instead ask for the strength necessary to complete your task."

Or more to the point, you may not have a rock and roll option available. So really, get over it and use what you got to get what you need done, done. Forcing yourself to fight smarter is not a bad thing no matter what light you look at it in.

[CAVU45]

Well I wasn't thinking a zed with a vest I was thinking more the raiders that just took your wife, kid, and all your food while you were out and about, are down there on the open plain would you and your buddies be able to at least take out key leaders with your rifles.

Well, seeing how my wife and all my children are pretty handy with both rifle and pistol (including my nine year old son) raiders aren't as big a concern as they might be. And yes, I was being facetious with the zed body armor thing. But even in the scenario you present a long range shooting duel wouuldn't be the best thing to get into with a pack of raiders. Even then, that still doesn't make a valid argument for a bolt action rifle when I can get a semi that would do the same thing with more ammo in the magazine and would be very good for a close in fight also.

[Birdman44]

Well, seeing how my wife and all my children are pretty handy with both rifle and pistol (including my nine year old son) raiders aren't as big a concern as they might be. And yes, I was being facetious with the zed body armor thing. But even in the scenario you present a long range shooting duel wouuldn't be the best thing to get into with a pack of raiders. Even then, that still doesn't make a valid argument for a bolt action rifle when I can get a semi that would do the same thing with more ammo in the magazine and would be very good for a close in fight also.

Cavu45 you speak the truth:lol:, however bolt action rifles are still better than nothing so how about some pros that may be helpful in the PAW? Right now i can think of just one, its pretty easy for someone to pick up and operate and teaching someone is a snap (even though the same can be said for many a gun) anybody have any good ones out there? :shotg:

[CAVU45]

Cavu45 you speak the truth:lol:, however bolt action rifles are still better than nothing so how about some pros that may be helpful in the PAW? Right now i can think of just one, its pretty easy for someone to pick up and operate and teaching someone is a snap (even though the same can be said for many a gun) anybody have any good ones out there? :shotg:


You'll get no argument from me there. A bolt gun is definately better than no gun at all. Pros for a bolt gun in a PAW are pretty hard actually. I'll give it a try though.

Easy to learn to operate by a beginner.
Comes in a uber wide range of calibers.
Easy to maintain.
Accuracy is superb.
Makes a hell of a club when the ammo is dry.

Off the top of my head that's what I can come up with right now.

[Birdman44]

Those are some good ones for it. I have a question though that im not sure if it has a direct answer due to the various bolt action and semi auto rifles. Here it goes. Since a bolt action rifle does not use some of the gas from the cartrige to reload itself will that mean that the same bullet out of a bolt action will be faster than that of a semi automatic rifle? I know it will give a heavier recoil for the most part which makes me think the bullet must be faster. If so is it a big enough difference in speed to be a pro?

[CAVU45]

There's really no appreciable difference. The gases used to prime the semi are negligible. You won't see any real difference in either muzzle velocity or ballistics.

[OVERKILL]

Well, bolt guns will always require more skill. Period

With the semi's, the shooter can double tap in case the target does not drop and with the bolt you would have to pullback again, wasting a second or two.

With reloading, I have honestly found it not very much of a problem, like CAV said, it is pretty fast procedure by someone that has practised the movement enough.

A definite Pro of the Bolt rifles is:
Hell better than not having a gun at all.

Why are you working the bolt so slow?

You'll get no argument from me there. A bolt gun is definately better than no gun at all. Pros for a bolt gun in a PAW are pretty hard actually. I'll give it a try though.

Easy to learn to operate by a beginner.
Comes in a uber wide range of calibers.
Easy to maintain.
Accuracy is superb.
Makes a hell of a club when the ammo is dry.

Off the top of my head that's what I can come up with right now.

They aren't really easier to learn, a semi only has to be aimed and the trigger depressed, a bolt action takes a lot of training to develop speed and proficiency. A bolt action is better to train beginners with because they don't get excited and turn around with a chambered round and the muzzle in your generl direction.
I personlly don't see much need in an automatic, my Ol' Pappy taught me to hit what I aim at the first time.

[Redfields]

Alright, maybe not a second or two but, by feeling for the bolt, you might lose time, either that or learn how to scope with ur left eye. I use my right so I look and shift my vision to see the bolt and pullback (better at it now, this was back then)

Thing is, not the bolting action but, the reconfiguring the aim, if they are shamblers, dont even try to shoot them (waste of ammo) but, if they are runners, that forces you to reconfigure your aim. So looking, bolting then reconfiguring... at least a second or two taken IMO.

[Birdman44]

There's really no appreciable difference. The gases used to prime the semi are negligible. You won't see any real difference in either muzzle velocity or ballistics.

Ok, thanks. That helps quite a bit.

[bandits1]

"Don't ask for a task set for your strength, but instead ask for the strength necessary to complete your task."

Or more to the point, you may not have a rock and roll option available. So really, get over it and use what you got to get what you need done, done. Forcing yourself to fight smarter is not a bad thing no matter what light you look at it in.
Of course I see your point of making best use of whatever weapon you have avaliable even if it's just a bolt-action rifle. I hope you see my point that if I had a choice between a semi-auto or a bolt-action as my primary weapon, I'd choose the semi-auto because, again, I don't want my weapon dictating how I shoot. I don't want to be forced to make every shot count because my only weapon is a slow-ass bolt-action.

I'm just agreeing with the OP's opening post stating that semi-autos are preferrable to bolt-actions in just about every day-to-day combat situation.

[CAVU45]

Alright, maybe not a second or two but, by feeling for the bolt, you might lose time, either that or learn how to scope with ur left eye. I use my right so I look and shift my vision to see the bolt and pullback (better at it now, this was back then)

Thing is, not the bolting action but, the reconfiguring the aim, if they are shamblers, dont even try to shoot them (waste of ammo) but, if they are runners, that forces you to reconfigure your aim. So looking, bolting then reconfiguring... at least a second or two taken IMO.


Excellent point. Bolt action rifles will be slower on the follow up shot. Fire, dismount, rack, remount, acquire, aim, fire. The rifle has to be reset into the proper shoulder and cheek weld every time. You lose valuable seconds over the semi.

[hotlead]

First, any firearm is better than a sharp stick and a handfull of rocks, no matter the situation.

Bolt actions have thier place in the world, one or two folks in your team armed with them can provide overwatch for search parties and when lureing zombies to your group for hunting missions, they can start thinning the herd from quite a distance. Those guys had better have PDWs though.

Even if your whole group were armed only with bolts, you could lay down pretty heavy fire. The tactics would have to change though, calling for defensive disengagement manouevers instead of active hunting.

These can include having two groups, one group firing while the other displaces and takes position, then leap-frogging untill out of sight, then running your butts off. This will be pretty effective for zombies, but much more so for raiders, who probably won't be expecting such organized resistance.

If you are by yourself, the bolt action rifle puts you at a disadvantage, but remember what I said about sharp sticks.

The idea of low RPMs and capacity forcing you to excercise fire discipline reminds me of French high command not issuing parachutes to fighter pilots during WWI. The thought was that pilots would fight harder/better knowing that they wouldn't be able to bail out if they were shot down. The only results being timid pilots who would avoid the enemy, and aggressive pilots falling to thier deaths and taking with them valuable intel and experience.

The Moisin-Nagant rifle is one of the coolest rifles I've ever owned, I have three M-44s ( from when Big-5 had 'em for $50, $200 got me three rifles and 1500rds of combloc surplus on srtippers ) They definately have thier own personality:)

Pros-
Guns/ammo are cheap
Guns/ammo will last forever
Have only four moving parts
Mine were last cleaned in Budhapest in 1954, and fire every time with good ammo
If you miss the target, you'll most likely light them on fire with the muzzle blast
The muzzle blast will stop unexpected tornadoes
The M-44s have a can opener/tent stake permanently attached
Sights are graduated out to 3 1/2 miles
You can use the bayonet to keep targets within the effective range of the rifle
The rifle makes a much better club than most rifles, even when out of ammo
No need to worry about aftermarket accessories, the only accessories are a 24" long piece 2x4, and a funny looking tin bottle with two caps that's been in a wharehouse in Romania since 1949.
Shiney bolt can be used to signal passing planes
2nd shot can reset dislocated shoulder
Ammo that was made 57 years ago by the finest child slave labor at a reeducation camp in Siberia is real cheap

Cons-
Muzzle blast shows your location just a little better than a bonfire
Muzzle blast can unexpectedly create tornadoes
Effective range is just short of the length of a fixed bayonet
You need to carry a piece of 2x4 to whack the bolt handle with when you want to cycle the bolt
1st shot can dislocate your shoulder
The best ammo available was made 57 years ago by the finest child slave labor at a reeducation camp in Siberia

Just a few thoughts, Hotlead

[Redfields]

Moisin-Nagant is by far I reckon the longest standing best rifle next to the AK. It is soo accurate and I would LOVE to fire one. I have seen countless being fired but, myself have not :cry:

[Hitman]

Moisin-Nagant is by far I reckon the longest standing best rifle next to the AK. It is soo accurate and I would LOVE to fire one. I have seen countless being fired but, myself have not :cry:


I would take any other common millitary bolt action over the mosin nagant in a heart beat.
K'98 mauser -need I say more
'03 springfield (see above)
lee-enfield , 10 round mag , many were made in .308 , one of the slickest if not the slickest bolts ever put into a battle rifle.
even the type 99 arisaka is so much better , then again it was a K'98 clone .

the nagants are fun guns but are pretty far down on the list of best bolt action rifles.

[the_velociraptor]

That would work for the purposes of this thread. Too many people use the terms "knockdown power" and "stopping power" interchangeably without really understanding that the terms don't truly exist.

What I'm talking about - ability to penetrate the brain. Or, say, objects for those very special moments of human v. human warfare.

@Hitman - you're joking, right? Accuracy. But then again, I hear it needs order-in ammo.

[the_velociraptor]

Mosin Nagant = Old Old Crap on a Stick

**Edit**
OLD OLD CHEAP RUSSIAN CRAP ON A STICK

Seriously though my life is worth more than $89
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=121469253

...You're joking, right?

Thanks for giving me a laugh, buddy. Obviously, a cheap weapon degrades its quality, hurr.

[CAVU45]

What I'm talking about - ability to penetrate the brain. Or, say, objects for those very special moments of human v. human warfare.

Explain if you would. What "objects" are you talking about?

[CAVU45]

They aren't really easier to learn, a semi only has to be aimed and the trigger depressed, a bolt action takes a lot of training to develop speed and proficiency. A bolt action is better to train beginners with because they don't get excited and turn around with a chambered round and the muzzle in your generl direction.
I personlly don't see much need in an automatic, my Ol' Pappy taught me to hit what I aim at the first time.

This is completely backwards. No instructor worth his salt is going to teach a novice on a semi. It'll be a single shot or bolt action, which are easier to learn to operate. Semis are much more complex than a bolt gun, therefore harder to learn to use. Pulling the trigger is a very small part of learning how to use a gun safely and properly. If a beginner gets all excited and turns around with a loaded weapon of any kind then the instructor hasn't been doing his job. My Ol' pappy taught me to hit what I was shooting at the first time also. With a semi I can hit alot more, alot quicker the first time than with a bolt gun.

[Hitman]

What I'm talking about - ability to penetrate the brain. Or, say, objects for those very special moments of human v. human warfare.

@Hitman - you're joking, right? Accuracy. But then again, I hear it needs order-in ammo.

no joke in my last post. the nagants aren't know for great accuracy. nothing the soviets made for wartime use is. the west and the com-block have very differen't notions of what a sniper rifle should be . take for example the

US M40 , super accurate out to 800 or so yards . designed with the doctrine of one shot one kill in mind . sub MOA is the standard for these guns.

the SVD used my the soviets was the polar opposite from the US doctrine . they wanted as many targets taken down as fast as possible . 2 MOA is concidered great by soviet standards and MO-man was the real goal .

the nagant's with the exception for the unissued sniper and finish models are not know for great accuracy. they just didn't need it , so care was not taken in that dept. most with a good bore should still shoot min of zed out to 150 yards or so.

[Bob]

...You're joking, right?

Thanks for giving me a laugh, buddy. Obviously, a cheap weapon degrades its quality, hurr.

Dude I am sorry if you can't afford any better than a $89 rifle.
But I can and my life is worth more than that to me.


You might want to look at this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm



.Just when I thought I could stop saying "knock knock" all the time another one crawls out of the woodwork...

[Bad Zombie Night]

Mosin Nagant = Old Old Crap on a Stick

**Edit**
OLD OLD CHEAP RUSSIAN CRAP ON A STICK

Seriously though my life is worth more than $89
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=121469253

Dude I am sorry if you can't afford any better than a $89 rifle.
But I can and my life is worth more than that to me.


You might want to look at this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm



.Just when I thought I could stop saying "knock knock" all the time another one crawls out of the woodwork...


Bob, do we really need to hear those kind of sarcastic remarks? Do you think there is any other way to get you point across without being so insulting and crude? :think:

Just something for you to think about. http://www.allthingszombie.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1&pictureid=1




OK, now that's over with.... http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/bzn123/Smileys/Signs%20and%20Gestures/backtotopic.gif

[Bob]

Ok so I am a sarcastic ass.
Nothing new there.
I guess it is time for me to take a break from reading these threads.
I have heard the same song to many times.

I acknowledge it was rude of me to imply someone is poor and cannot afford modern firearms.
I may be at times rude and crude but I am real.
I am the same here as in real life just ask VJ.

We need a new movie, or mini-series, something to rekindle the flames.
Heck even Homelite isn't posting about chainsaws anymore.

I do consider the Mosin Nagant Old Cheap Russian crap on a stick.
My opinion is that most but not all old military rifles are crap on a stick.
I just don’t have a use for them nor do I find them aesthetically pleasing.
Remember the old saying “one mans treasure is another mans trash”.

Anything is possible, my opinion may change, just last week I revised my opinion of Saiga Shotguns and bought one.
I invite someone to show me the light and convince me of the worth of the Mosin Nagant.

I had a friend who had (he is dead now) a safe full of what I considered crap.
It was all old military rifles in various conditions.
Many of these were not inexpensive firearms.
The bayonet to match one of these rifles cost him over $900.
I asked him what he was smoking and told him to send me some whatever it was.

This part of the non-sarcastic clarification is about defending ones life.
I do think my life is worth more than $89 dollars.
There is a difference in old and cheap and a deal.
For the cost of that same $89 Mosin Nagant I could get a modern shotgun.
Last month I bought an 870 for $64 dollars.
It was not pretty but it was fully functional.
I do understand the difference in a shotgun and a rifle.
Be it in the ZPAW or real life if I could only have one firearm I would rather have an 870 than a Mossy Nugget.

In closing let me pose this question.
Assuming all you can afford is $100 for a firearm.
When something went bump in the night which would you want?
A Mosin Nagant or an 870 with a 18” barrel?

To be on topic
I am against bolt rifles for general use against the Zed.
An M1-A or Ar-15 or just about any Semi Auto rifle is superior.
In a specialized situation they are at best acceptable.

[Comander Shaw]

Bolt-action rifles should be used by a sniper way behind the team ahead of them, because of the time it takes to reload and to arm the bolt.

Semi-auto rifles should be used near the front lines, because of the rate of fire and fast reload speed.

These rules apply to just about any situation. Including Z-Day.:zom2:

[50 cal]

I have an Enfield No4 Mk1 that I would trust my life to. Plenty of ammo that I bought when it was really, really cheap in the early to mid 90's.
I also have 3 AR15's that would be preferable to use over a bolt gun. You use what you have to the best of your ability.

You would be surprised at how fast a trained person with a military grade bolt gun can fire.:evil: Particularly with the Enfield type rifles with their cocking on closing feature.

For a static defense, give me the bolt gun. For out foraging or on the run, the nod goes to the military style semi auto. Forget the full auto stuff, you waste too much precious ammo.

[kiltedninja]

A cheer for you! You've solved all of our problems with one post!

Honestly though, that does sound like the best plan. To me anyways.

[Comander Shaw]

I have an Enfield No4 Mk1 that I would trust my life to. Plenty of ammo that I bought when it was really, really cheap in the early to mid 90's.
I also have 3 AR15's that would be preferable to use over a bolt gun. You use what you have to the best of your ability.

You would be surprised at how fast a trained person with a military grade bolt gun can fire.:evil: Particularly with the Enfield type rifles with their cocking on closing feature.

For a static defense, give me the bolt gun. For out foraging or on the run, the nod goes to the military style semi auto. Forget the full auto stuff, you waste too much precious ammo.

I wasn't thinking of trained military people shooting bolt-actions, I was thinking about an average civilian.

[CAVU45]

I still don't understand why a bolt action when a semi can do the same thing just as well.

[50 cal]

Sometimes it may be the only thing available. Not everyone owns a military style semi auto.
For years all I had was bolt guns and lever guns. Heck, give me a good Winchester or Marlin lever gun chambered in a pistol cartridge. I have a Marlin 1894 in 44 Magnum. Holds 10 in the tube plus 1 up the pipe. You would be surprised at how fast you can manipulate the loop on one and still keep the butt of the rifle in the shoulder.

Granted, I would much rather have my AR's. But if all I had was a military grade bolt gun, I wouldn't care at all.

[50 cal]

I wasn't thinking of trained military people shooting bolt-actions, I was thinking about an average civilian.


You do what you know and were trained to do.:evil:

[CAVU45]

I have no argument with that. It's better to have a gun than not have one, and a person uses what he has. I'm very aware how fast a lever gun can cycle having two myself. They are slower to reload than a semi though. No, my confusion arises from having both a bolt and semi and choosing a bolt gun over the semi for any situation.

[mattifikation]

It would make very little sense to make such a decision. I suppose if you were in a situation where you had a bolt action, a semi-auto, and a sidearm it might make sense for one person to take the bold and the sidearm, while the other takes the semi.

Or maybe if you knew magazines were in short supply for the semi-auto, for some reason.

Other than that... no reason.

[Birdman44]

If i had a bolt action and a semi auto rifle i would probably choose the bolt action over the semi in situations i knew i would be able to control, thus saving my semi from the abuse and keeping it nice and tidy for when i would really need it, like if there were a lot of zeds coming after me. Pro for bolt action: can be made an expendable before switching over to a semi auto rifle :machgun2:

[CAVU45]

If i had a bolt action and a semi auto rifle i would probably choose the bolt action over the semi in situations i knew i would be able to control, thus saving my semi from the abuse and keeping it nice and tidy for when i would really need it, like if there were a lot of zeds coming after me. Pro for bolt action: can be made an expendable before switching over to a semi auto rifle :machgun2:

Two rifles plus ammunition for both? That's a hell of alot of weight to carry for no appreciable gain.

[Flesh Jester]

Doesn't matter, trained or not, bolt weapons are easier to take apart and unjam I once had a round stuck between the bolt and spring of my SAW, I have no Idea how it happened, but I fixed it so easily, by just removing the bolt and knocking the jamed round out. Revolvers would be better tho. :roll:

[Darkness]

Revolvers would be better tho. :roll:

"If you like Revolvers, you might like the following thread as well." :)
http://www.allthingszombie.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15695

[Birdman44]

Two rifles plus ammunition for both? That's a hell of alot of weight to carry for no appreciable gain.

Who says im carryin both? I could keep my semi back at HQ, in a car, etc.

[mattifikation]

What good will it do you there?

[Birdman44]

lets say i was out scavenging, ide keep my semi on my quad and my bolt with me. when in the store if i find more zombies than me and my bolt can handle i go outside get the semi and go back in. not to mention to cavu that a bolt action and semi automatic rifle can use the same kind of ammo. i would just rather use the bolt action more when in less important situations during ZPAW. but thats just my opinion.

[mattifikation]

If you need to get out, and you succeed in getting out, it's not such a great idea to go back in. What gun you have isn't an issue.

[hotlead]

I think you'd be better served by leaving the bolt on the quad, and carrying the semi around. The reason is that any Zed emergency you have will be close and smelly, then rapid, accurate, voluminous fire will be neccessary.

If while stalking around, you see a few Zs a distance away, you'll likely have time to retreive your bolt action to reach out and touch some one.

I know everyone will have a pistol or pistols they can go all Laura Croft with when they run into a bunch of Zombies, but there's a reason most militaries have been carrying semi-automatic rifles for 5 decades or so, while keeping bolt action rifles for a specific role.

[CAVU45]

Who says im carryin both? I could keep my semi back at HQ, in a car, etc.


Let me rephrase. Why have two rifles? I don't understand the reasoning for having two rifles when one can do the job of both.

[CAVU45]

lets say i was out scavenging, ide keep my semi on my quad and my bolt with me. when in the store if i find more zombies than me and my bolt can handle i go outside get the semi and go back in. not to mention to cavu that a bolt action and semi automatic rifle can use the same kind of ammo. i would just rather use the bolt action more when in less important situations during ZPAW. but thats just my opinion.

Again, I'm having trouble understanding your logic with this. I know that boltguns and semis can use the same ammo. I just don't know what a "less important" situation would be in a ZPAW. Seems to me that anything you'd do would be of paramount importance. And I still don't understand why two guns would be necessary when one (a semi auto) can do the job well.

[Bob]

Same song different day.

As a rule a decent semi-auto is more accurate than the man shooting it.
About a year ago I was at the range and there was a guy in the bay next to me shooting a G-22. His targets looked like they were shot with a shotgun from 100 yards away. No groups just random holes everywhere. I was shooting a G-23, he commented about my target and we got to talking. He was telling me that he had bought the pistol used and thought the barrel was shot out. I asked him why he thought the barrel was worn out. He said it was because the bullets were all over the target instead of the one ragged hole like I was getting. I asked if I could take a few shots with it, I think he had been hoping for that when he started talking to me. I loaded a magazine with my ammunition (was the same as his) and ran a fresh target out. I shot about the same with that pistol as I had been doing with my own. Perhaps a tad bit better because of the longer sight radius. At this point it was obvious to all it was the wetware not the hardware. A few minutes instruction and he was doing much much better.

You do not instinctively know how to shoot accurately.
No matter how many times you have watched your favorite action movie you will not learn to shoot from watching the actors do it.

Yes on paper a bolt gun is more accurate, the bench rest guys use them to shoot insanely tiny groups at crazy distances. BUT they go to insane lengths to prepare their ammunition. Sometime when you are bored look into the steps they take with hand loading. Yes military snipers generally use a bolt gun but they are not off the shelf items you would find at your local sporting goods store.

The point of this is Cav is right.
A good semi can take the place of a bolt rifle.
A bolt rifle cannot take the place of a semi-auto.
A decent semi-auto has more inherent accuracy than 99.999999 percent of you can utilize.

http://www.usnst.org/coursefire.htm
The Palma Match, an NRA National Championships event, is shot at 800, 900, and 1,000 yards, with 15 rounds at each stage. Shooters compete in one of three categories: Service Rifle, NRA Match Rifle, or Palma Rifle. In international Palma matches, only Palma Rifles and ammunition loaded with 155-gr. projectiles are used.

Now those service rifles are not stock nor are the others off the shelf.
My point is they can shoot a semi at 1000 yards and hit their target.
To reiterate, most people cannot and never will be able to shoot better than the average "good" firearm. The term "good" is slippery so lets just say modern, mid price range for it's class meaning pistol or rifle.

[CAVU45]

Excellent points all Bob. There's the Camp Perry matches also with service rifle teams with AR's shooting targets out to 600 yds. Again, not something the average once a month shooter could do. Modern semi-autos have the range and the accuracy to really reach out and touch someone. That's proven. There's no question about it.

Another thing Bob touched on was rifle prep. Any rifle, properly prepared, can reach out to distances that challenge the best shooters. Free floating barrels, new match grade barrels, trigger work, glass bedding, can all lend a rifle to sub MOA groups at ridiculous ranges. But it's all for nought if the shooter isn't up to the task. Plus, the expert shooters aren't using mass manufactured ammunition. Theirs is specially prepped by them. Each round hand loaded to near perfection.

In the end a semi-auto is every bit as accurate as a bolt action rifle. So that begs the question, why carry both?

[bandits1]

lets say i was out scavenging, ide keep my semi on my quad and my bolt with me. when in the store if i find more zombies than me and my bolt can handle i go outside get the semi and go back in. not to mention to cavu that a bolt action and semi automatic rifle can use the same kind of ammo. i would just rather use the bolt action more when in less important situations during ZPAW. but thats just my opinion.
If I opted to carry two rifles on a scavenging run, one would be a semi-auto and the other a shotgun. I'd leave my slow-ass bolt-action at home.

[Bob]

A shotgun is a great close quarters weapon against the living (sorry Darkness).
Against the Zed not so much so.

Anyone care to hazard a guess why I don't like a shotgun for use against the Zed?

Perhaps we should be debate Assault Rifle vs Pistol Caliber Carbine.

[Birdman44]

Look, all im saying is that i would rather have my semi as a backup and use the bolt action first. Its a gun and it will kill things. If i need food and 20 zombies are in the way ill walk out of the store grab my semi and kill them if its an emergency. If not ill just pick them off one by one with my bolt and not have to worry about getting my semi dirty for when the need may really arise.

[Bob]

Well my bolt gun is one heavy piece of gear but then again it is setup for long range shooting.

[Birdman44]

True. I see your guys' argument and its a good one. But i would rather be stubborn and bring two guns instead of one and use the worse one first.

[CAVU45]

Okay. Your decision is your decision as long as it puts no one else in danger. But think about this. What if you inadvertently walk into a position where you needed the semi-auto, it's on your quad and you are cut off from it?

[Trumble0]

If you wanted the best of both worlds Might I suggest the Springfield M1A/M14 Scout, it's a .308 common large rifle/bolt action round today. but it is semi-automatic, and it was the Marine Corps rifle for some time due to it's inherent accuracy. And the scout model comes with a Long eye relief scope, it was featured in the newest Guns and Ammo I believe as a Classic with new life breathed into it, now availible with all sorts of accessory rails and a new synthetic stock.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/springfield/spg_30715.jpg

[Bob]

Won't argue the M1A.
Mine is in the E2 configuration.

[Birdman44]

Okay. Your decision is your decision as long as it puts no one else in danger. But think about this. What if you inadvertently walk into a position where you needed the semi-auto, it's on your quad and you are cut off from it?

I see your point on that one Cavu. I would have one hell of a time if zombies came out from around the corner of my quad. I may be wrong with this one but i still would want my bolt close by and given the chance i would try and use it first.

[hotlead]

Yes, the M1A, civvie version of the mighty M14.

Also shoots the same cartridge as my M40, .30 caliber 150gr FMJ pills, turning cover into concealment since 1906.

I keep a spare of every part on my standard, except the barrel is a scout length 18". I keep the spare parts assembled into a functioning bush rifle, they're easier to carry around that way......

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/hotlead_photos/IMG_0270.jpg

Remember Birdman, bring enough gun the first time, and you won't have to a second time:x

[Trumble0]

I wanted a .308 when I went to get my savage 111 but the only calibers they had were .300 win mag, .30-06 or .270, so I opted for the 'ought six' since I already had the reloading dyes, I like it well enough but Its kinda taken a back-seat to my mil-surp rifles. We have .308 dyes too for my grandfathers old Gamemaster pump .308. I'm glad to see pump action rifles making a re-appearance with the Remington 7615. Curious, where does everyone see Pump-action rifles stacking up between Bolt and Semi's? I'd like to venture a guess that they'd be in the middle, but more useful than a lever action since the 7615 can accept the AR-15 style mags.

http://www.innovativetactical.com/catalog/images/remington/7r96e5m03.jpg

[mattifikation]

I never understood the point of that gun.

[Bob]

I've never really given them much thought.
They would allow for faster follow up shots than a bolt action.
Faster Reload than a bolt action.
Possibly more reliable than an automatic.
Not as ammunition limited as an automatic.

I would buy one if I got a good enough deal on it.
If it was a Remington it would either need an aftermarket trigger or be brand new with one of the new Remington adjustable triggers.

[hotlead]

I think that rifle would be a bitch to shoot rapid in the prone position, but a cool idea for most HD scenarios, one of those and an 870 would be good match. Similar handling and feel as the 870 is one of the points Remmington makes about this rifle, too bad they didn't make the .308 one accept M14 or FAL mags.

[Bob]

That would have been a selling point for me.
Although if ammunition prices don't ease off some in the coming months I am going to find the most brutal to shoot rifle I can stand.
That way when I only shoot a handful of rounds I won't feel cheated.
I used to never shoot less than a hundred rounds of .308 or .223 when I went to the outdoor range to practice.
Now I shoot no more than half that on a good day generally less.

[FFG]

I can see a use for a Bolt Action in my situation. I have bunches of ammo that I only have bolt action rifles for. .303, 7.62x54R & 8mm. I have nine different rifles for this ammo. I could see my self carrying my No. 4 Mk 1 around with the Garand near by. Getting some use out of the .303 as long as I can. Not to go through doors or anything like that.

[LJHolcon]

Depends entirely on the situation. If you're traveling with a group, a good bolt action rifle in a DMR role is invaluable (particularly with glass.)

They're relatively useful in rural areas (such as where I live.) Semi-auto's are more effective direct combat weapons, obviously. But I suppose it depends on what you're planning on, as well.

If you're talking apocalypse... real end of the world scenario where there is no resupply and I might not be able to lug an armorer's box or an AK parts kit along with me, then give me a solid bolt action rifle any day of the week.

Now, bugging-in, there's no good reason not to have a semi-auto weapon in a combat caliber around. I have a garage built AK sitting next to the bed, and a Sig556 Classic in a Pelican case as my home-defense weapons. I have no neighbor's within a mile and a half. But if God forbid some terrible event happened and I was forced to go out into the fields/woods for an extended period, I'm grabbing the 1903a4 build or 870. I can take deer with either one.

[LJHolcon]

That would have been a selling point for me.
Although if ammunition prices don't ease off some in the coming months I am going to find the most brutal to shoot rifle I can stand.
That way when I only shoot a handful of rounds I won't feel cheated.
I used to never shoot less than a hundred rounds of .308 or .223 when I went to the outdoor range to practice.
Now I shoot no more than half that on a good day generally less.

Doesn't that just suck? The fun days of casual shooting are coming to an end.

[J Dub]

imo zday will be a day for rapid expulsion of zombies, i'll take a semi thank you:)

its all about how much lead you can put on target down range, bolts can't compete remotely in that regard.

[Faran Brigo]

...the west and the com-block have very differen't notions of what a sniper rifle should be . take for example the

US M40 , super accurate out to 800 or so yards . designed with the doctrine of one shot one kill in mind . sub MOA is the standard for these guns.

the SVD used my the soviets was the polar opposite from the US doctrine . they wanted as many targets taken down as fast as possible . 2 MOA is concidered great by soviet standards and MO-man was the real goal .

the nagant's with the exception for the unissued sniper and finish models are not know for great accuracy. they just didn't need it , so care was not taken in that dept. most with a good bore should still shoot min of zed out to 150 yards or so.

I have one little nitpick though. I was under the assumption that the Dragunov was not really a sniper rifle but a squad designated marksman rifle. Soviet battle doctrine called for armored spearheads (T-54, T-62/T-70, T-80) working in tandem with mechanized/motorized infantry (BMP IFV series/BTR APC series), the theory was to close the distance fast enough inside the armored vehicles to the point where you didn't need +800 yards accurate small arms in the first place.

That might sound off-topic, but even without armored vehicles, I think it's still sound because your average human is far more mobile than zombies and that's what it was ultimately riding on, mobility.

Remember Nagants had a multidecade production run spanning both world wars. They might not match up against western bolt actions, but they're decent enough to use on stumbling, lurching stupid targets like zombies.

[CAVU45]

imo zday will be a day for rapid expulsion of zombies, i'll take a semi thank you:)

its all about how much lead you can put on target down range, bolts can't compete remotely in that regard.

I agree. Putting lead on target as quickly and accurately as possible would be key. A bolt gun can't compete against a semi in that regard.

[rogeneck]

if its people then yes putting lead on target is important but if you can only hit one part of their body then slowing down it useful. if you dont have alot a ammo (most people dont have 10000+ like some of you do) then you want to slow down and make each shot count.

[CAVU45]

You can do the same with a semi-auto and be quicker on the follow up shot. Many semis are every bit as accurate as bolt guns.

[WEREWOLF HUNTER]

ITS ALL ABOUT EFFICENCY... UNLESS YOUR JUST PICKING CHERRYS FOR FUN..

A LARGE PLASTIC GARBAGE CAN FILLED WITH GASOLINE ON THE ROOF IS
ALL YOU NEED, JUST PUSH IT OFF THE ROOF BEFORE THEY REACH THE WALL..
AND THEN TOSS SOME MATCHES... END OF THEIR ATTITUIDE PROBLEMS FOR
THE EVENING...
:lol:

[rogeneck]

a large plastic bag full of gas is not a rifle. get on topic.

[mattifikation]

ITS ALL ABOUT EFFICENCY... UNLESS YOUR JUST PICKING CHERRYS FOR FUN..

A LARGE PLASTIC GARBAGE CAN FILLED WITH GASOLINE ON THE ROOF IS
ALL YOU NEED, JUST PUSH IT OFF THE ROOF BEFORE THEY REACH THE WALL..
AND THEN TOSS SOME MATCHES... END OF THEIR ATTITUIDE PROBLEMS FOR
THE EVENING...
:lol:

End of your wall, also. Fire spreads. And turn off your caps lock, moron.

[Faran Brigo]

a large plastic bag full of gas is not a rifle. get on topic.

Plastic can full of gas would go into "weapons you DON'T want to have" :lol:

Setting aside the n00b's suggestion. I would like to clarify a couple of things. When I was talking about bolt vs semi rifles, I meant if that was your ONLY weapon. Outside of FPS games, I don't think carrying around two types of rifles and large amounts of corresponding ammunition is practical, especially since bolt actions tend to use larger, heavier, more bulky rounds.

Just to reiterate, I don't see bolt action rifles having much use outside of static defense, where you have barriers between you and the zeds, OR if you have enough space to back away from the zombies and pick them off at leisure and I don't see the point in killing zombies just for the sake of killing zombies, if they're far enough to "snipe", they're far enough not to be a bother in the first place.

[hotlead]

if its people then yes putting lead on target is important but if you can only hit one part of their body then slowing down it useful. if you dont have alot a ammo (most people dont have 10000+ like some of you do) then you want to slow down and make each shot count.

With most bolt action rifles you have a 5rd magazine capacity, military bolts can be reloaded relatively quickly with stripper clips, putting a scope on top of the receiver(where most of them are) means you have to load it one round at a time. You'll get about 10-15 aimed shots a minute if you're practiced.

A scoped, detachable mag semi-auto can get 50-60 aimed shots a minute, semis have been proven to be just as accurate as the large majority of bolts.

Having 10,000 rounds available doesn't mean anything, you can't carry that much. 500 .308s with a bolt action rifle weigh as much as 500 .308s with a semi-auto.

Slowing yourself down by short-changing yourself wth less effective weapons makes as much sense as using a chainsaw. If you don't have enough self discipline to control your fire with a semi-auto rifle, then you won't be able to use a bolt action rifle effectively either, it'll take more focus and discipline to not panic with a slow loading bolt action than a semi.

[CAVU45]

ITS ALL ABOUT EFFICENCY... UNLESS YOUR JUST PICKING CHERRYS FOR FUN..

A LARGE PLASTIC GARBAGE CAN FILLED WITH GASOLINE ON THE ROOF IS
ALL YOU NEED, JUST PUSH IT OFF THE ROOF BEFORE THEY REACH THE WALL..
AND THEN TOSS SOME MATCHES... END OF THEIR ATTITUIDE PROBLEMS FOR
THE EVENING...
:lol:

Right. End of attitude problem alright. You'd be the crispy critter served up for dinner. Pretty damned stupid idea not to mention how moronic it is to carry a garbage can full of gas onto a roof to begin with.

[Faran Brigo]

Having 10,000 rounds available doesn't mean anything, you can't carry that much. 500 .308s with a bolt action rifle weigh as much as 500 .308s with a semi-auto.

True, but most semis use smaller rounds than bolt action rifles.

[hotlead]

The first several dacades of military semi-automatic rifle use was with full powered rifle ammo, mostly 7.62x51/.308win., or the issue cartridge from the rifles country of origin.

Semi-auto sporting rifles are chambered in the same calibers as bolt action sporting rifles, which are much more powerful than modern service rifles.

True, there are lots of poodle-shooters out there that throw a .22cal bullet down range, but I don't think you're gonna run around with 10,000 .223s either.

The whole focus of my post was to show the advantages of a semi-auto over a bolt action, the point you quote shows that a cartridge weighs the same whether in a semi or a bolt, and that having 10,000rds or 10rds makes no difference on how you fire your rifle.

[Faran Brigo]

You can carry around more ammunition with an M-17 Bushmaster (which isn't particularly good) in .223 than with a 7x54R Mossin-Nagant or a Lee-Enfield in .303 British. If you're going to compare semi auto rifles with bolt action rifles firing the same ammunition, ammo carrying capacity is moot but total rounds per reload still stands.

[Slayer]

I think the best value in a Bolt Action rifle today is the Mosin Nagant, you can find them around $70 commonly, and the ammo is in sealed tins for storage, and it's also very cheap. It's not the best rifle, but it's dirt cheap, reliable, and decently accurate. For only around $200 you could equip yourself with one, a tin of ammo, and some cleaning supplies. I don't think a zombie will be able to tell the difference between one and a $1,000 rifle.

[CAVU45]

The problem with surplus ammo is consistancy. You never know from round to round whether it'll go bang or fizzle.

[homelitexl]

Slowing yourself down by short-changing yourself wth less effective weapons makes as much sense as using a chainsaw. .

uh dude have ypu evur red any of my posts im the chainsaw pro leave the saws to experts like me

[neoanderson9318]

uh dude have ypu evur red any of my posts im the chainsaw pro leave the saws to experts like me
Well, I think when ZDay DOES come, you won't have to worry about anybody else using a chainsaw. They are probably the worst weapons you can have. And also, when ZDay comes, you won't have to worry about all of those Grammar classes you obviously keep skipping... -_-

[Darkness]

"This is NOT getting back on topic, guys." :naughty:

[hotlead]

You can carry around more ammunition with an M-17 Bushmaster (which isn't particularly good) in .223 than with a 7x54R Mossin-Nagant or a Lee-Enfield in .303 British. If you're going to compare semi auto rifles with bolt action rifles firing the same ammunition, ammo carrying capacity is moot but total rounds per reload still stands.

You're right, we agree on this and I said the same thing farther up the page, I don't know where our differences are.

Comparing bolt action rifles to Semi-auto rifles doesn't actually have much to do with ammo weight, we can use an AR and a Remmy 700 varminter in .223 for examples if ammo weight is a deciding factor in the discussion and .308 is too heavy for you :).