what's your favorite AK version for zed popping?

[detpat]

i have a converted saiga in 7.62x39 and a Romanian SAR 1 with a full profile left side folder and ak74 fsb. [i gotta take some pics today]

What's your favorite?

[bandits1]

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1528/ak47tacticalwx3.jpg

[detpat]

you should have just bought an ar15:roll:

[Cenobite]

The one with bullets.

[Hitman]

All I've got right now is a norinco MAK90 . its plenty accurate enough for zombie work , right around 4" offhand and 100 yards . I'd like another but not sure what model I'd like . the finnish clones I've seen look nice but are kinda expensive , esp for and AK.

I'm also having an M92 yugo underfolder in 7.62 being built . I've shot one before and had to get my own. I'm sure I'd feel the same way about a sidefolder in 5.45 also. they do feel good in the hands.

I've also shot a tromix 12 ga krink . thats also getting put on a "must have " list but its quite a ways off for now.

[Augustus Desius]

This one. I think everyone will agree that it is superior.

[detpat]

i have a saiga 12 and love it. tony has an unreal waiting list, so find one for sale or get on the list and start saving.

I gotta get a yugo, the ones I've handled were great guns and a very nice AK variation. i have a side folder, with the appropriate receiver mods for the forward latch and both a triangle and a full profile poly stocks. the triangle is more compact, but the poly beats it hands down for comfort, cheek weld and shootability.

[Devilspaintbrush]

I have several home built Romanian's that have worked really well

I have around 25 30 round mags for them so am pretty set once I get another case of ammo in storage

I really like the Saiga's...Tony's work at TROMIX.com is top notch and I really want a .223 AND a Saiga 12gauge and a .308 for reaching out there


D

[detpat]

i really like my romy, i use the Bulgarian poly's and the Chinese flatbacks for mags. i do have a crate full of euro mags that work just as well.

a 308 would be great to have, mags are too pricey though.

[Jimmy]

I went to the gunshow and paid $50 for 10 magazines... I got it last year a few months after my 21st birthday. It was my birthday present to myself. xD

I keep it in the trunk of my squad car just incase I find myself in the middle of a bank hiest or something. lol

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9682/asasdasasbu3.jpg

[Emp]

No shit? You guys are allowed to own these types of weapons?

[Devilspaintbrush]

No shit? You guys are allowed to own these types of weapons?


Yuppers sure are...well the semi auto version of them anyway

[detpat]

I used to keep an Mforgery and a mossy 590A1 in my squads trunk.

[CplKerberos]

Check it out, this is my first post here but I figure I might have a little knowledge to spread so here we go.

I've read through a number of posts on here already about zombie fighting firearms. A lot of good points in favor of many weapons but also a lot of overlooking when it comes to our soviet friend, the AK-47.

There are many reasons why an AK-47 would be the ideal zombie firearm. I'll go ahead and make a list so it's easy to follow.

1. AK's do not require much firearm knowledge- It's important to remember that not every single person in this world is firearm savvy, however AK's are simple to operate and most people can pick it up and use it effectively with just being shown once or twice how to operate the action and reload.

2. AK's require little to no maintenance- Every weapon requires maintenance during sustained use. The M16A4 which is current issue for the US military, requires cleaning after only a few fully loaded magazines are fired as I've been privy to time and again during my current enlistment as a US Marine. The exact opposite is true for an AK47. I won't go too deep into the mechanics of it but the AK doesn't inject gas from an expended round directly into the chamber like an M16/AR variant rifle does. This leads to a much cleaner operation and extended time between cleanings. AK's can even have their bolts rusted shut, kicked open, and fired whereas a little mud anywhere near an M16 makes it crap all over itself.

3. AK's are accurate enough- Now I know I'll hear some crap for this one but hear me out. As a Marine, I'm trained to hit targets at 500 yards with iron sights on my M16A4. Your average individual won't be able to achieve that accuracy without proper training with that weapon. Weapons are only as accurate as the person firing them. I don't know about you, but I've never had to engage a target with an M16 at 500 yards other than on the qualification range. Zombies are definitely not even a threat at this range so why bother trying to make that shot? Urban fighting, 300 yards and down, is where you'd be engaging most zombies and probably not until something like 100 or 50 yards in all honesty. This is where the AK shines. At 300 yards, an AK is still accurate enough to hit a man sized target, closer in it just becomes easier.

4. AK's are cheap and so is there ammo- A stock AR platform these days can run upwards of $700US and that doesn't include sexy accessories like ACOGs. An AK can be had in it's perfectly legal semi-auto variant for under $600US depending on where you buy from. As for ammo, 5.56NATO isn't a cheap round, trust me but 7.62x39 can be had for half as much and you'll get twice as much ammo. The pricing again depends on your supplier but on average that ratio is going to be all encompassing.

I think there was more I wanted to point out but my long post has sapped my thinking and reasoning skills. I now open this to discussion as I'm sure there will be disagreements amongst some folks with what I have stated here. I don't claim to be an expert on firearms and their workings but I will say I am very well informed and very well trained with a diverse spectrum of firearms. That being said, embrace me, make me your brother.

-Cpl K

[Behemoth]

http://www.allthingszombie.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15601&highlight=ak47
Check out this thread, i think it is where you should have posted:)

[CplKerberos]

http://www.allthingszombie.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15601&highlight=ak47
Check out this thread, i think it is where you should have posted:)

You know I saw that one and didn't feel it was the proper place to put information like this. That is more of a personal preference poll than anything and I wanted to make my look at the AK's position as a survival weapon as objective and reasoned as possible.

I appreciate the heads up though :D

-Cpl K

[Behemoth]

Well i liked your post & pretty much agree, i think that was the result of the poll tread aswell.

[CplKerberos]

Well I'm glad you liked the post and agree with me. A lot of folks give the AK too much flak because it is usually in the hands of our enemies. The weapon itself isn't evil regardless of it's user's intent. I just want a weapon I know will function every time I need it to when the zombies come a calling to be put back in their graves.

[Behemoth]

Well the main advantage with the ak47, over any rifle i know, is you can bury it come back for it a week or month later & it will work, just ask the afgans or viet cong. This would be an advantage in a paw situation as you could stash the weapon if the authorities catch you, say you don't have a gun, they let you go & you're all set.

[CplKerberos]

This would be an advantage in a paw situation as you could stash the weapon if the authorities catch you, say you don't have a gun, they let you go & you're all set.

Much to our dismay on both my tours in Iraq. Silly terrorists.

[Behemoth]

Well what variant do you recommend? I have only ever fired an old 1950 east german one i belive it was 7.62.

[CplKerberos]

It really comes down to personal preference. All AK's and their variants obviously have a nearly identical design. Personally, I prefer one with a full wood stock and full length barrel, however, the Chinese have a nice under-folding wire stock version which can make the weapon about a foot shorter. Some people claim that those stocks tend to wobble but the one I got to play with was nice and tight. Don't have any pics of that one though.

There is also the AK-74U which fires a 5.45mm bullet with a shortened barrel and collapsible stock. That could be just as handy and it is certainly just as reliable.

It just comes down to choosing the right configuration for your situation and preference. I am no stranger when it comes to full length rifles and crazy gigantor weapons like Dragunovs so I have no problem using a full sized AK.

[detpat]

my personal favorites are a saiga converted to original configuration and an SAR 1 with a full profile Russian polymer sidefolder, tight as a drum and very comfortable to shoot, and a ak 74 fsb with Osti NVG flash hider.. best of both worlds. the saiga has a solid buttstick.

the 5.45 version has the current advantage of cheap ammo.

some pics of mine

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/harrybeck/DSC09849.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/harrybeck/DSC09844.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/harrybeck/DSC09846.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/harrybeck/DSC09848.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/harrybeck/DSC09850.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/harrybeck/DSC09851.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/harrybeck/DSC09852.jpg

[mattifikation]

Accurate enough to hit a man sized target isn't good enough. With zombies, you need something accurate enough to hit a head sized target. But you make good points about them being more reliable, easier to use, and cheaper.

Just avoid those WASR pieces of crap.

[CplKerberos]

Accurate enough to hit a man sized target isn't good enough. With zombies, you need something accurate enough to hit a head sized target.

You're right but I did not state that as a zombie aspect but overall accuracy. I did mention the range you would be engaging zombies is far closer than the 300 yards the weapon could hit a man at :)

I'm glad you found my points valid though :D

[mattifikation]

My beef with the accuracy is that if something has a huge reputation for a certain problem, it's probably half as bad as the reputation would have you believe... but five times as important under zombie circumstances.

If we were talking about a 28 days later scenario, or an I am Legend sort of infection (or real life survival situations,) I'd be more okay with an AK-47 because torso shots will take those guys down.

Some people have some really freakin' small heads. I don't care if it's at 50 yards or 500, I wouldn't want to be stuck trying to hit one with an AK.

[CplKerberos]

I won't argue with you. It's really a personal preference once facts have been stated. Just remember if you can hit it with a pistol, you can definitely hit it with an AK. And believe me, I have seen untrained people use that weapon accurately enough to hit a target in the head. For the ones who are really interested to know the exacts though, with an AK47 one can expect 3-5 MOA at 100 yards.

And damn detpat, you must have some collection :) Thanks for those pics.

[mattifikation]

I've been drooling over some AK's at a new store in my area for awhile now, but I found out they were the WASR's with the crooked sights, the loose magazines, and the fun trigger slap. I feel so let down.

[detpat]

sure guy, you should search for my [posts in the past, i got a pretty good pile of small arms and some have been posted around here. look for a pm

[Behemoth]

The cost of ammo won't make a bit of difference in an outbreak, the case should be what caliber size would be best in an AK to take down a zombie. I am also not sure about this head shot thing, why is it always necessary to kill the zombies? In DOTD remake they mention "twichers" meaning zombies that have been disabled, well thats good enough for me, i'll just carry on my way & let 'em twich. So 4 or 5 rounds from an AK should be enough to disable a zombie. ( i am basing this on my own experience, seeing what the rounds i fired did to a tree stump )

[bandits1]

This is the coolest AK I have ever seen:

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1528/ak47tacticalwx3.jpg

[Hitman]

the cost of ammo is important for stockpiling now . just like was mentioned the cost after the fact is not important , because you won't be able to just mail order it. the more you sock back now is more that you have for later.

the twitchers see, to be caused by a gunshot that was almost enough to kill it but didn't destroy enough of the brain or spinal cord to put it down for good. aiming for a non killing shot is aiming to miss.

[Faran Brigo]

The cost of ammo won't make a bit of difference in an outbreak, the case should be what caliber size would be best in an AK to take down a zombie. I am also not sure about this head shot thing, why is it always necessary to kill the zombies? In DOTD remake they mention "twichers" meaning zombies that have been disabled, well thats good enough for me, i'll just carry on my way & let 'em twich. So 4 or 5 rounds from an AK should be enough to disable a zombie. ( i am basing this on my own experience, seeing what the rounds i fired did to a tree stump )

For starters, if you go by the numbers (DOTD2K4 is the only movie to have twitchers) there are no twitchers. DOTD2K4 were fast zombies, not classic zombies, different rules apply to everything from weapons to tactics to survival strategies.

I disagree with Hitman though, twitchers in the movie were all hit in the spine (if I remember correctly) not the head. If you want to pump rounds into each zed until by chance one of the bullets hit the spine, go ahead, but I'm guessing your ammunition won't last long.

[Behemoth]

Well fast zombies are a threat, slow zombies are an inconvenience, you don't need an AK for classic zombies a .22lr rifle would be enough.

[Faran Brigo]

That's debatable, and to date there's no conscensus about how adequate the .22LR might be. It's been going on since before this section of the forums was closed actually.

That aside, fast zombies are more than a threat, a crowd will kill you, period. That narrows your chances of survival in a city to near zero, and an AK47 wouldn't do much to up them. If you're thinking about fast zombies, forget about the AK47 and pick up an RPK or M249, anything less just won't cut it for anything but individual zeds. Either way, it still means you have to aim for the head.

[Behemoth]

Well a fast zombie with his legs shot away ain't gonna be very fast. If faced by a crowd of fast zombies ( around 8-10 ) i belive an AK47 hold 30 rounds, taht should be enough to ensure you live to fight another day. Slow zombies just run for it & save ammo.

[Faran Brigo]

So are you going to aim at the blurry legs and take your time or spray in the general direction and hope that at least a third of the bullets are direct hits to the places you need to hit?

[Behemoth]

Well fast zombies are no faster than the equivalent person charging at you, so yeah, i feel pretty good about leg splintering at 30-50 yards with an AK.

[detpat]

well, my guess is that fast zeds are gonna require some very similar tactics to live opponents, with the exception of ignoring non immediately fatal wounds. I would guess that structural injuries are gonna slow them down and allow a second chance shot.

In any case, tactics and stealth are gonna be the keys to survival. If you are a small group and come into hard contact with a large group of fast zeds it's over almost no matter how well armed you are.

[mattifikation]

Actually, they'd probably be a good bit faster. Living humans need oxygen in their muscles to move them. If that oxygen is limited, the muscles don't move as quickly or as strongly. And, in a human, the oxygen is always limited by the person's respiratory and circulatory systems' health.

Fast zombies require none of that. They just run, gaining energy from who-knows-what, and are completely unaffected by lack of oxygen or blood supply to the limbs.

[detpat]

that's certainly possible, we can't know what the physic's of the fast zeds might be. could be faster, slower, maybe just different. Hell could be supernatural and make no sense at all.

I wouldn't be willing to bet the lives of my loved ones absolutely perfect shooting and flawless luck. you don't rise to the situation, you default to the level of your training! also your state of mind, state of health and stress levels. Injuries make a difference, stress and sleep deprivation are real killers in a shooting situation, let alone a ZPAW like the one we discuss here.

[Hitman]

the only AK I have for now. I'll be picking up my krink monday .

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/bobsboobs/mak90.jpg

that is just a small sampling of the ammo and mags I have for it. I been stocking up while waiting for the new one.

[50 cal]

The AK is a very reliable rifle, but the AR is much more accurate. 7.62x39 isn't loaded to the best of quality assurances.
Give me the AR variants any day. I've owned numerous AK's since the mid 80's. I've always sold them and increased my AR family with the proceeds.
The 5.45x39 rifles are a bit more accurate but not up to AR/M16 standards.

[JakAttak]

The cost of ammo won't make a bit of difference in an outbreak, the case should be what caliber size would be best in an AK to take down a zombie. I am also not sure about this head shot thing, why is it always necessary to kill the zombies? In DOTD remake they mention "twichers" meaning zombies that have been disabled, well thats good enough for me, i'll just carry on my way & let 'em twich. So 4 or 5 rounds from an AK should be enough to disable a zombie. ( i am basing this on my own experience, seeing what the rounds i fired did to a tree stump )
yeah I guess you could put 4-5 rounds in 'em then have a still biting still moaning Z on the ground or you can use 1 round and take him out permanent- like.

[Onslaught]

i feel comfortable enough with my SAR-1 to make headshots out to 50 yards shooting offhand, more like 100 from a supported position. i need to practice more.

hey detpat, can you get me a source for that polymer sidefolder? i'm currently using a collapsible car stock and it's just not doin it for me. (i suppose it is nice for when the lady shootis it though. pics forthcoming.)

[detpat]

i got mine from K-VAR when they had them on sale last year. you know that you need serious mods to the receiver to use one of these?

[JakAttak]

If I can find one it would be the Israeli Galil.

[Zombreach]

I am gun illiterate, and was hoping someone could clarify something for me? My nephew has an AK47..he refers to it as a civilian's AK47. How does this differ from one used in the military?

As a side-note: he belongs to a gun forum and they have a zombie discussion going--what would be the best gun for the job? It was decided that a .22 rifle would be best because it is lightweight, easy to use, and easy to find ammo for. :lol: :loon: Like I said--I'm gun illiterate-- but I know that a .22 would probably be one of the worst. It is the only gun I have ever fired, and I don't think it has much stopping power. But, perhaps I am wrong...

[Devilspaintbrush]

I am gun illiterate, and was hoping someone could clarify something for me? My nephew has an AK47..he refers to it as a civilian's AK47. How does this differ from one used in the military?

..

hey bro

a "civi" ak is nothing more than an ak that is semi auto only...simple as that

a 22lr is one of my main goto guns in case of a zombie outbreak...headshots out to 100 yards are gonna be the key and they can be done with a .22lr with practice...granted my main gun with be some kind of EBR but for general zombie killing I woild go with the .22lr

PLUS

You can easily silence a .22lr...dont want the wrong kind of attention now!!! :drinking:

[the_velociraptor]

you should have just bought an ar15:roll:

Why? I'm probably not going to have the aptitude to clean an AR-15, nor the supplies for it.

An AK-47, on the other hand, will last me a while.

[Redfields]

Personally, any AK. They are soo durable its not even funny. They are also really accurate and can easily pop a target 300-400 yards away.

[Birdman44]

I wouldn't mind any ak variant that takes a 7.62X39mm cartridge, they seem very durable, accurate enough to dispatch zombies from a noticable range and powerful enough to punch through some body armour should a raider be in the vicinity.

[dudeskis]

Anything made by Arsenal, Norinco, or Saiga is good stuff. I have a standard Arsenal SLR-95. My front sight post is stuck and won't lower so I can't get it zeroed with the iron sights. I keep putting off the trip to the gunsmith to break it loose so I'm putting myself at serious risk if Zday happens. Also I'm short on mags and ammo.

I can't express how important it is for everyone to buy at least one AK-47. Decent ones can be had for $600 and it is just about the only gun you'll need for Zed killing other than your sidearm. A scope rail and red dot wouldn't be a bad idea either if you can afford it. If you can't just go to the range and sight in your iron sights as best as you can and get comfortable with the gun.

There is no other gun on the planet that has a track record of reliability higher than the AK-47.

[Bob]

Cough Cough
Today is Bobs day to be nice so he is just wandering off whistling tunelessly.

[dudeskis]

Cough Cough
Today is Bobs day to be nice so he is just wandering off whistling tunelessly.

Come on man... Maybe I should have stipulated "Assault Rifle". The AK-47 is used almost exclusively in the harshest countries and environments on earth. It is produced by more countries than any other gun. You can bury it in the sand, neglect it and it will still fire almost every time. It is so simple to operate that children use it and the round is heavy enough to be used on many targets that the 5.56 won't penetrate.

Can you honestly say that there is an assault rifle currently in production that is better suited for the world that awaits us after Zday?

[Bob]

Dudeski
The fickle finger of fate was not pointing at you.
I didn't and still don't want to call a name as this is my day to be nice.

[Trumble0]

I've got an SKS. It feels more Solid to me than an AK being Milled and not stamped. Same caliber with a Synthetic Dragunov style stock on mine... Granted the AK I have fired was an WASR-10 which I have heard is on the lower end of the AK spectrum it's certainly no Valmet (sp?) I feel like I can get tighter groups with my SKS and it can accept detachable mags. Ive got a polymer 60 round mag and a steel 40 rounder. the 7.62 x 39 is a solid round and packs a punch. but I prefer my SKS 59/66 to an AK.

I get alot of mag slap with the polymer though. feels really loose in the magwell :-(

http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/85/l_53b528909d59b3f50b768af5587df2de.jpg

[Z-Day is very soon]

My Zastava M70 (not Civilian Version , Fully Auto i live in bosnia dont know if its legal or not but who cares), but i wouldnt mind upgrading to and Zastava M21

[Bob]

This would be a better choice for long range head shots than an AK and is battle proven. It rules for popping milk jugs of water. Faster than a bolt gun and plenty accurate enough. All E2 parts are correct.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/548/m1a3.jpg

[Trumble0]

This would be a better choice for long range head shots than an AK and is battle proven. It rules for popping milk jugs of water. Faster than a bolt gun and plenty accurate enough. All E2 parts are correct.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/548/m1a3.jpg

See I like the M1A but I'm not a fan of the Pistol grip stock for it. But I am still envious that you own an M1A :-( :lol:

[Bob]

I suppose the E2 configuration is not for everyone but I like it.
I still have the original stock somewhere...

I am gathering the parts for the conversion of my Saiga 12.
All the conversion parts are on order but several of the suppliers are having a hard time getting stuff, especially ace stocks, blocks, and hinges.
My MDARMS 20 round drum should be here in a couple of weeks.
I think 20 12guage slugs will tear stuff up.

Sometimes I wonder what my kids are going to do with all this oddball stuff when I croak off.

To get back on subject
My favorite AK is the only AK I have, a Saiga 12.
I must rectify this before the end of the year.

[Trumble0]

To get back on subject
My favorite AK is the only AK I have, a Saiga 12.
I must rectify this before the end of the year.

I suppose by your 20-12 gauge shell remark you're thinking about purchasing the 20 Round Drum? :evil:

My buddy has A Saiga 12 with a couple 5 round mags it's a nice gun, but it didnt like the remington target loads we were shooting. but he didnt adjust the gas settings.

He also has a Saiga 7.62 x 39... It's the same caliber as My SKS yet I go deaf instantly if I shoot his gun without hearing protection. Yet with my SKS it takes a few mags before I'm like... wow I should probably throw on my muffs

[Bob]

The drum is on order, it's probably going to be several more weeks before it gets here. I never thought I would pay that much for a magazine...

I doubt I get a Saiga rifle.

[Comander Shaw]

Original AK-47 plain and simple. :zom2:

[y2k survivor]

Rommy Wasr-10 cause it costed $320.00 and ive blow'n through 4k plus of ammo without a hickup. Well it jammed once cause a holding tab of a crappy poly mag broke in it. Not really the guns fault. Plus if it does jam ill mount the bayonet and throw it like a javelin.

[kiltedninja]

An AK isn't balanced to throw that way.

So one time, I drew an AK, then was like 'I could turn this into a sniper rifle' and what I ended up drawing was an almost exact drawing of the Dragunov. I was angry when my friend told me it had already been invented.

Anyway, I'd have to go with one that shoots in a straight line, preferably the 7.62x39, and has a cleaning kit. It may not need it, but a clean gun is a happy gun, a happy gun is slightly more accurate.

Has anyone tried making an AK version that shoots a pistol round? I think if you lobbed a .45 ACP round out of it, you might have a decent gun.

[y2k survivor]

An AK isn't balanced to throw that way.

Haha its called sarcasm.

[detpat]

I've seen AK's in all sorts of calibers. since the AK was cheap for so long it was a pretty fun platform to experiment with, so you're gonna see lots of oddball variations out there.

[Contract Killer]

Whats the general opinion on it for an anti-zombie weapon?

For those who dont know its essintial an ak that shoots 12 guage rounds, same maker and factory, etc.

I think personally its amazing, can hold up to 20 rds in the drum and even the 10 rd mags arent hard to find. 12 guage also extremely easy to find with most towns having quiet a few owneers of shotguns. Being based of an ak means its crazy reliable as well. Its also very customizable if u can get one before Z-day to change anything you dislike about it!

[Bob]

I like the S-12 I have a couple of them and 1 drum.
I fit the drum to the first one the I fit the second one to the drum.
Worked out pretty well.

I find them to be very soft shooting shotguns.
Softer than my 1100s.
They cycle really fast and I enjoy shooting.
I can keep 4 shells in the air when I am rolling, my oldest son can do 5.
This is without bump firing.
One of them is going to be setup with a folding stock and is off in Atlanta getting a back plate welded on and some other work.
The fixed stock has a super light trigger.
If there is such a thing as a match trigger on a S-12 it has one.
But, it is so light that I get light primer strikes.
When the weather cools down enough for me to spend some time in my un-airconditioned shop I am going to replace the main spring.
I am going to sacrifice trigger pull for reliability.
I can with regularity hit rifle targets at 100 yards shooting slugs with it.
I really like the Krebs sight it has, the folder is going to have a H&K sight on it.
I have had a couple of different stocks on the fixed stock one and not totally satisfied with either of them.
I have kind of put all my gun projects on hold for a while till I can stand to be in the shop longer than to just toss stuff through the door.

How about you?

[Contract Killer]

ahhh lucky you. I wish i was old enough to own one, but alas at 16 its illegal. Im a youngin haha ive just been looking a lot at guns as of late and feel like i know a tiny bit about them, so it seemed like they are the most logical choice and was curious to know what othere thought about it

[Bob]

In their US import form they are ok but they really turn on when you convert them.
The conversion process is not difficult and can be accomplished in an evening if you are handy with tools.

[Contract Killer]

ive heard much of the same.

You have any idea if the tromix ones are nice?

[LJHolcon]

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h103/feldmarschel/artamdsideprof.jpg

I built this on a Nodak receiver, a Romanian 75 kit, with AMD fore-end lower, chinese upper, SP1 flash hider, Yugo M70 grip, East German Side folder. And a Croatian mag for good measure.

And I love it.

[Contract Killer]

thats sick!

[fraust]

Eh, I don't think I'd really go for an AK. I'd probably want a HK417. Don't get me wrong, AK's are awesome guns, but the 417 is slightly more accurate.


Well the main advantage with the ak47, over any rifle i know, is you can bury it come back for it a week or month later & it will work, just ask the afgans or viet cong.

You can do the same with a HK416. At some gun show HK even showed that you could bury it, take it out and fire it without any cleaning.
Not sure if it's specific to the 416, but knowing HK, probably not.

[LJHolcon]

Eh, I don't think I'd really go for an AK. I'd probably want a HK417. Don't get me wrong, AK's are awesome guns, but the 417 is slightly more accurate.




You can do the same with a HK416. At some gun show HK even showed that you could bury it, take it out and fire it without any cleaning.
Not sure if it's specific to the 416, but knowing HK, probably not.

I know when someone asks what their favorite AK is, I tell them an HK416.

[ak47alex]

Since I can't get my hands on a Finnish Sako RK-95TP, my favorite Zed buster Kalashnikov would be mine.

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp341/ak47alex/CIMG1052.jpg


From top to bottom

Polish wz.88 Tantal 5.45x39.5 m/m
Bulgarian SLR-106FR (AK-101) 5.56x45 m/m
Bulgarian SLR-107FR (AK-103) 7.62x39 m/m

[Hunk]

AK-47 simply because its the most basic down to earth weapon you can get. it has minimal parts, ressistant to jams, and is lighter than the m-16. it has a solid wood stock and even have pre mounted sights for grenade launchers. Add a scope and a bayonett and you have a decent AR

[CAVU45]

AK-47 simply because its the most basic down to earth weapon you can get. it has minimal parts, ressistant to jams, and is lighter than the m-16. it has a solid wood stock and even have pre mounted sights for grenade launchers. Add a scope and a bayonett and you have a decent AR

Lighter than the M16? Hardly. The AK would be better compared to the M4 which is much lighter. To the best of my knowledge the AK doesn't come with grenade launcher sights mounted.

[LJHolcon]

Lighter than the M16? Hardly. The AK would be better compared to the M4 which is much lighter. To the best of my knowledge the AK doesn't come with grenade launcher sights mounted.

Several do (the easiest to obtain being the M70.)

[mattifikation]

Do you know where to get AK grenades anyways?

I can see how an m203 would be useful on an AR, because post-ZPAW there's probably going to be the occasional dead soldier with some 40mm grenades... but unless you switch continents I don't think you'll find much for an AK.

[LJHolcon]

Do you know where to get AK grenades anyways?

I can see how an m203 would be useful on an AR, because post-ZPAW there's probably going to be the occasional dead soldier with some 40mm grenades... but unless you switch continents I don't think you'll find much for an AK.

You won't be scavenging any, that's for sure. But you can buy them still.

[mattifikation]

Where?
I've never heard of being able to buy active grenades, only dummy grenades and tear gas grenades and other non-exploding devices.

[LJHolcon]

Where?
I've never heard of being able to buy active grenades, only dummy grenades and tear gas grenades and other non-exploding devices.

I have two Yugoslavian rifle grenades (m60,) and the muzzle device/"launch pad device" and the require splice rounds. But they're not cheap and for each one you have to pay a DD tax. I had three. I fired one off then quickly decided as fun as it was, I wouldn't be doing it again for the money! But I digress,

Yes you can buy active grenades.

[ak47alex]

The Polish wz.88 Tantal pictured above was designed launch any 22 m/m (NATO) rifle grenades off its proprietary muzzle device. As well as being able to attach the Polish Pallad 40 m/m under-barrel launcher and the Russian GP-25/GP-30 40 m/m grenade launchers.

[CAVU45]

Several do (the easiest to obtain being the M70.)

Interesting. Learn something new every day. If those sights are anything like the M203 or SKS sights, then they're one step from useless.

[LJHolcon]

Interesting. Learn something new every day. If those sights are anything like the M203 or SKS sights, then they're one step from useless.

They're exactly the same. It's a vertical ladder sight.

[CAVU45]

They're exactly the same. It's a vertical ladder sight.

Intersting again. I can honestly say that I have never seen one on any model AK either here or in the ME.

[the_velociraptor]

AMD-63, though that's probably only for the built-in foregrip.

[Hunk]

The AK-47 was designed to use the production methods that were state of the art in the Soviet Union in the late '40s. This implied it more or less used the same methods of construction as the PPSh-41 and PPS-43.The design of an automatic rifle was in the works in Russia before World War II even began. The Avtomat Kalashnikov barrel and bolt were milled out of a steel billet. Its receiver, which was at first milled, was later formed from sheet metal stampings, simplifying manufacture and reducing the weight of the rifle. In order to be able to use a steel grade that was easy to machine, the barrel and bore were hard chromed. The stock was simply made out of wood, which was a non-strategic material, and perfectly fit the Soviet manufacturing philosophy, where large plants using untrained labor could manufacture basic weapons cheaply and in very large quantities.

Another feature typical of Soviet assault rifles is the capability of the AK-47 to fire under very adverse conditions. This can be attributed to the bad experience the Soviet Union had during the early stages of WW2, where it lacked proper ammunition production facilities. Thus, until 1943, the Soviet Union was reduced to using some very poor powders in its ammunition, leaving heavy residue in the guns using it. The Soviets also had learned early on that during a major conflict there is little time to train soldiers to keep their weapons clean.

Vietnam war veteran David H. Hackworth recalled,

“ One of the bulldozers uncovered the decomposing body of an enemy soldier, complete with AK-47. I happened to be standing right there, looking down into the hole and pulled the AK out of the bog. "Watch this, guys," I said, "and I'll show you how a real infantry weapon works." I pulled the bolt back and fired 30 rounds — the AK could have been cleaned that day rather than buried in glug for a year or so. That was the kind of weapon our soldiers needed, not the confidence-sapping M16. ”

Over time, AK-47 descendants have been simplified through the use of spot welding and by further reducing the number of machined parts. The Izhevsk factory manufacturing descendants like the AK-101 can produce around 24,000 units a day. Because of its design it is not possible to manufacture the AK-47 series efficiently in small plants, due to large amount of metal stamping equipment needed for mass production. However, the AK-47 has been copied and manufactured in small shops all around the world, at the expense of more man hours per unit...

Now For The M16


...During the later '50s, when Colt bought the blueprints of the AR-15 (M16) from ArmaLite, there had been many improvements in the field of machining equipment, the biggest being the introduction of numerical control machines.

The objective was to design a new assault rifle that was easy to carry and manufacture in early automated plants using numerical control machining. It was to use a smaller caliber bullet to allow the soldier to carry more ammunition, which increased his firepower while also enabling him to obtain a higher hit probability. The M16 would achieve all these objectives by using all the latest technologies of its day.

The M16's 5.56 mm M193 bullet would sometimes fragment on impact, and thus create wounds that were out of proportion to its caliber. The 7.62x39 mm round of the AK-47 generally does not fragment, but "is still quite deadly having an unusual tendency to remain intact even after taking unusual deviations upon contact with bone."

Unlike all the other gas operated modern assault rifles, the M16 does not have a separate piston. Rather, it directs the gas into a small chamber inside the bolt carrier, and thus pushes the bolt carrier back directly. Note that the gas actually impinges inside of the bolt carrier itself (in the chamber formed inside of the carrier behind the bolt itself), applying rearward pressure on the centerline of the barrel, reducing rotational torque. This system works well provided clean burning powders are used in the ammunition. The primary advantage of this system is enhanced accuracy when firing full automatic (and some even argue in semi-automatic due to fewer moving parts and less 'mass' moving around in general). It also reduces felt recoil to a very low level. The main disadvantage is it introduces fouling directly into the receiver, which mandates frequent cleaning and oiling of the outside of the bolt and of all surfaces on the bolt carrier. One early major improvement was to also hard chrome the barrel and chamber, which reduced spent case ejection problems plaguing the very first M16s. Hard chrome seals the pores in the metal of the barrel and chamber, making it much more difficult for residues and particles to adhere to the surface. Hard chrome on these surfaces also greatly reduces cleaning time. Currently, both the AK47/AKM/AK74 and M16/M4 variants have chrome lined bores and chambers. Over time, however, many other small changes have improved the reliability of the M16. Reliability issues with first production version were worked out later in the Vietnam conflict by re-introducing stick powder into the ammunition, as opposed to ball powder which would swell the cartridge casing and cause jamming. The forward assist was also added to the M16 Army Variant (the Air Force had made the forward assist a condition of acceptance), which allowed for the correction of the situation where the bolt would fail to fully push a cartridge out of the magazine and into the chamber.


A Marine with an M16A4 (equipped with ITL MARS reflex sight and KAC RAS foregrip) in Fallujah, Iraq, December 2004Post-Vietnam, all branches of the United States Military began tweaking the rifle to perform at its peak accuracy, and with a much greater reliability in adverse conditions. Thus was born the M16A2: it now carried a heavier steel milled barrel and a tighter rifle twist (1:7) to allow the use of a heavier (and longer) projectile, as the new ammunition would now include the modern SS109 62 grain projectile from Belgium. Full-automatic capability was replaced with a 3-round burst feature, although some specialized forces were equipped with fully automatic M16A2s (also known as the M16A3). The latest model is the M16A4, with MIL-STD-1913 rails (also known as Picatinny rails), which allow soldiers to easily attach scopes, red dot sights, and carrying handles. They also include a rail system on the fore-grip, produced by Knights Armament Company. The weapons are now capable of being customized to each soldier's preference, making it a Modular Weapons System. There is confusion about the M16A3 having the Picatinny rail like the M16A4, but really the M16A3 only has the fixed sight of the M16A2.

With the evolution of modern CNC (Computer Numerical Control) machinery, the M16 can now be manufactured in micro plants. In the U.S., a number of manufacturers make modern M16 variants and many are indeed micro plant manufacturers. This is possible because of the high degree of automation that can be applied to the machining of the M16 receiver and upper, which are made out of aluminum.

The M16 appeared much later than the AK-47 and thus provided a platform that offered much more development potential than the AK series. Unlike the AK-47, the M16 continues to benefit from every advance in the CNC field, which allows more and more small manufacturers to make M16s and AR-15s (AR-15 is now used as the designation for civilian versions, limited to semi-automatic fire only). While the M16 is made using aluminum and plastics, it can also be made entirely out of machined steel and wood, at the expense of adding some weight. Where the AK-47 has so far relied on huge Soviet-style, state-run factories(albeit with considerable illicit small-scale production existing), the M16 is considered ideal for market economy production, spread among many manufacturers around the country, this also ensures it would be nearly impossible to disrupt U.S. M16 production in the case of a major conflict. However, should CNC technology be applied to AK-47 derivatives on a large enough scale, this advantage might be negated.

So Whaddya think?

[Creeping Death]

M16.

Lighter, more efficient bullet.
Might jam more often, and be less powerful, but better in terms of range, rate of fire, and accuracy.

Plus, when you see a video of the AK47 being fired, it looks like its made of rubber.... :doh:

[detpat]

they both work! i own both and really enjoy shooting them. my serious go to rifle is an AR though!

[Hunk]

Nice! at least someone with a shooting opinion

[Frallon]

I'd rather have the AK, I love the M-16, but in ten years they'd have made vests that can stop a 5.56 round and I'm sure they'll be obsolete as even a choice

[Zombardment]

I would have to go with the M-16 but, the AK-47 is very durable and almost doesnt jam.

[pkerface]

Ak-47 All the Way!
It kicks some serious butt
and also a very unique weapon! :]

[Frallon]

Unique? There's tons of models like it, lmfao, and i agree with the frame comment, but really whatever works still works.

[Creeping Death]

(Without looking up on wikipedia)

I believe that the M16 is effective up to 800 meters.
And the AK is only effective up to 300 meters.

And after watching the show "Lock and Load" with R. Lee Ermy, I also noticed how much more recoil the AK47 gives. The guy had a hard time firing it fully automatic when asked, he had to fire in bursts. (I know, thats one guy, but still).

The M16 was hip-fired fully automatic at the concrete wall, and when the trigger was held down, the magazine was unloaded in a matter of seconds.

Aside from all of that, the M16's 5.56mm NATO round is much more common in the United States.
And when fighting zombies you need the most readily available ammunition.

Besides, who needs a 7.62mm to kill a zombie anyway?
Power isn't as essential as supply on Z-Day.

:guns:

[pkerface]

(Without looking up on wikipedia)

I believe that the M16 is effective up to 800 meters.
And the AK is only effective up to 300 meters.

And after watching the show "Lock and Load" with R. Lee Ermy, I also noticed how much more recoil the AK47 gives. The guy had a hard time firing it fully automatic when asked, he had to fire in bursts. (I know, thats one guy, but still).

The M16 was hip-fired fully automatic at the concrete wall, and when the trigger was held down, the magazine was unloaded in a matter of seconds.

Aside from all of that, the M16's 5.56mm NATO round is much more common in the United States.
And when fighting zombies you need the most readily available ammunition.

Besides, who needs a 7.62mm to kill a zombie anyway?
Power isn't as essential as supply on Z-Day.

:guns:

Seems like you know alote about guns
Which I Dont But The Ak-47 is my personal so for me its a winner!

[Frallon]

Yeah, I'm not so sure on the range, i haven't looked it up (i really wouldn't quote you on it)
But the AK fires a 7.56 mm round, which should travel farther than the 5.56, and for the concrete block test I believe no weapon should ever be fired on Fully automatic; it wastes ammo like crazy. I've fired an AK, and i've seen people fire an AK, recoil isn't really a problem.

[Redneck]

(Without looking up on wikipedia)

I believe that the M16 is effective up to 800 meters.
And the AK is only effective up to 300 meters.
Should have looked it up on wiki,
M16 effective range is 550m.
AK47 effective range is 400m.
I would also like to point out that M4's effective range is 300m and its maximum range is 800m.




And after watching the show "Lock and Load" with R. Lee Ermy, I also noticed how much more recoil the AK47 gives. The guy had a hard time firing it fully automatic when asked, he had to fire in bursts. (I know, thats one guy, but still).

The M16 was hip-fired fully automatic at the concrete wall, and when the trigger was held down, the magazine was unloaded in a matter of seconds.
Sure it has some recoil, but I like that, and most men should have not have a hard time.


Aside from all of that, the M16's 5.56mm NATO round is much more common in the United States.
And when fighting zombies you need the most readily available ammunition.
It is the most common, but that means more people will be using it, and wasting it, on body shots.


Besides, who needs a 7.62mm to kill a zombie anyway?
Power isn't as essential as supply on Z-Day.
Power won't hurt, not one little bit.

[Creeping Death]

the AK fires a 7.56 mm round

7.62mm round. :-|

[Creeping Death]

Sure it has some recoil, but I like that, and most men should have not have a hard time.



Less recoil means you can better steady your rifle.
The less recoil, the better.

[CAVU45]

Take Wiki with a grain of salt. You never quite get the entire story there. This from Global Security on the M16; Max. Range:3600m, Max Effective Range (area target):800m, Max Effective Range (point target):550m. For the M4 the numbers are (from the US Army fact file); 600m for area and 500 for point. The AK47 numbers are something like (from the US Army AK47 Operators Manual); Max of 300m (full auto) and 400m on semi. The M16 is clearly way more accurate than the AK. It's possible, with training and practice, to hit targets all day long at 600m with it.

As for me, make mine an M16 (or M4). Despite what its detractors say, it's one of the best combat rifles in the world. Fast, accurate, and reliable.

[CAVU45]

Seems like you know alote about guns
Which I Dont But The Ak-47 is my personal so for me its a winner!

I gotta ask. Have you ever fired either of the weapons in question?

[Frallon]

7.62mm round. :-|

lol my bad teacher was coming

[Frallon]

Less recoil means you can better steady your rifle.
The less recoil, the better.

Might as well fire a 22 then by that logic :doh:

[Dark Gale]

And after watching the show "Lock and Load" with R. Lee Ermy, I also noticed how much more recoil the AK47 gives. The guy had a hard time firing it fully automatic when asked, he had to fire in bursts. (I know, thats one guy, but still).

The M16 was hip-fired fully automatic at the concrete wall, and when the trigger was held down, the magazine was unloaded in a matter of seconds.

In the case of zombies, fully automatic isn't really a good thing to do anyway. If the 7.62 has a more accurate flight path than the 5.56, then it would be better to use. As long as the bullet can go through the skull, then power doesn't mean a thing. A .22 could kill a Zombie just like a .50 Cal could. But the 5.56 is more common, and that's what would really do it for me. If you end up running out of ammo for the AK, you'd have a much easier time finding the 556 than you would the 7.62.

[ShotGunGuy93]

But the AK fires a 7.56 mm round, .

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m146/thehappygoldfish/Demotivational/Jokerlaughingfacepalm.jpg

7.62x39 Genious. :)

As far as me, I really dont prefer either one over the other, both are very formidable firearms in the role they are designed for. When it comes to comfort though Ive shot a number of variations of both AR's and AK's and I think the AK feels a little akward. In that respect I prefer AR's..

[Creeping Death]

Might as well fire a 22 then by that logic :doh:

Thats not the point.
The point is that if your going to decide between the M16 and the AK47, recoil is a factor.

In the case of zombies, fully automatic isn't really a good thing to do anyway. If the 7.62 has a more accurate flight path than the 5.56, then it would be better to use. As long as the bullet can go through the skull, then power doesn't mean a thing. A .22 could kill a Zombie just like a .50 Cal could. But the 5.56 is more common, and that's what would really do it for me. If you end up running out of ammo for the AK, you'd have a much easier time finding the 556 than you would the 7.62.


And I wasn't directly reffering to the use of the M16 against a zombie, I was talking about the weapon in general.

[ZombieFanatic101]

I am lucky to have a gun nut friend so I get plenty of range time with different kinds of weapons. I have shot both the ar15 and ak47 many times and like both weapon systems.

My only complaint with the ak47 is recoil/lack of follow up shots

Take a ak47 and fire 3 shots in a quick burst ( not full auto ) you will notice after shot 1 your muzzle has raised up , 2nd shot you are higher and 3rd you are most likely off target. Now take the ar15 , after firing all 3 shots the same way you are still on target with all 3 shots and muzzle climb is almost non existent. Shot placement is very critical imo.

Now the ak74 is a diff story , smaller round and less recoil

I would be happy with either weapon when the SHTF , and can shoot both weapons accurately enough to make it count.

[mattifikation]

I think that in the opening years of the ZPAW, the M16 based weapons will have a clear upper hand. As the years continue on, the AK-47's strengths will probably become a major factor.

If ammo availability wasn't a concern, I would love a gas piston AR in 6.8spc. I really hope that caliber picks up enough momentum to become a mainstream thing.

[CAVU45]

Any AR platform in 6.5 or 6.8 would be kick ass.

[Birdman44]

I've never had range time with either one of the platforms, however I do know that I would be thankful if given one. Until I get my hands on one here in Jersey I'll stick with the other platform, a remington 870 :evil: :shotg:

[Frallon]

I'll vote M16 when we come to our logic and upgrade caliber.

[CAVU45]

There's nothing wrong with the current cartridge. Would a haeavier one be nice? Of course. But the 5.56 will definately get the job done. Not to mention the AR platform is available in a crapton of different calibers.

[ShotGunGuy93]

I'll vote M16 when we come to our logic and upgrade caliber.

I know this is going to shock and dissapoint you, but you don't need a "oMg dEaGle!!1" to kill a zombie.

[hotlead]

Deagle-AR anyone.........http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_xm15_BCWVMS20-45.asp

A .450 will definately be a future build for me, if anyone comes up with a more traditional upper chambered for it. That'll knock down the hog-zombies, fo sho.

[Dark Gale]

Deagle-AR anyone.........http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_xm15_BCWVMS20-45.asp

A .450 will definately be a future build for me, if anyone comes up with a more traditional upper chambered for it. That'll knock down the hog-zombies, fo sho.

I don't know which is the stronger round, but I remember something about a .50 Cal M16 variant that is used against vehicles.

[Birdman44]

I don't know which is the stronger round, but I remember something about a .50 Cal M16 variant that is used against vehicles.

The .50 Beowulf. Looks like an awesome little, er, big round. Definately a man stopper, car stopper too :)

[Hunk]

Might as well fire a 22 then by that logic :doh:

hell yeah...

[Redneck]

Any firearm that shots and you have mmo for, will work!

AR is not a bad weapon, but I still think more people will be going after its ammo.
Sure there is alot of it, but if five out of six people are looking for it, it will go just as fast as 7.62.

[J Dub]

hmmm M16 (full auto capable) or ak47 (also full auto capable). i'll take one of each please :lol:

both are excellent rifles, and both will do the job efficiently, so to choose is tough for me cause i wouldn't turn either away. but i'd go with the M16 hands down.

better ballistic performance, lighter ammo and the configurations you can come up with are almost endless.

[Frallon]

I know this is going to shock and dissapoint you, but you don't need a "oMg dEaGle!!1" to kill a zombie.
Smart ass, I'm not stupid, I'll never fire a deagle in my life; give it to my friends :)
This is about a comparison from M16's and AK 47's, and although it's a good gun, the caliber pisses me off; you can kill a zombie with a rock if you have to, but as an actual gun here in reality, I'd take the AK. N i apologized already for the 7.62 mistake, teacher walked in, and i can't really type numbers without looking lol.

Good point J Dub, lol, why fight when you can have both?

[SWAT Zombie]

it sounds to me that you can't go too wrong with either. however the AK seems to be the more reliable in the long term, but the M-16 has smaller rounds, still capable of debraining a zombie, but you can carry more rounds than an AK. tough choice. of course living in australia i'd be damn lucky to get hold of either. but since our regular troops, and i believe also our SWAT equivalents, use Steyrs that would be the more likely assault rifle i'd find. unless i came across the corpse of an SAS trooper or an australian commando (they use M-16s and similar assault rifles.) i'm still waiting to see what kind of semi-auto handgun the Victorian police are gonna end up with, cause i'd most likely go with that because then they'll potentialy be everywhere.

[kiltedninja]

I'm more familiar with the AK, but once I get used to them, I'm sure I'd take the M16. Accuracy and weight are important in the initial outbreak, because you'll likely be shooting more. But I'd have an AK and plenty of ammo for it waiting for me at by Bug out location.

[undeadkllr]

The question you need to look at I think is relabitly, I would take an Ak anyday over an AR/M-16/m-4. In a survival situation I would not want to have to break down my rifle and be without my main battle rifle, ar-15 are great rifles dont get me wrong but unless you are going to clean them frequently, they are not good for field situations in anyones hands but a soldier, AK's you can put in anyones hands. I was trained on the M16A2(when they were first intigrated) into the Army and have shot civy versions since, and I would still take an AK, which is my main "Battle Rifle"

[UNDEAD FRED]

I will have to go with the M16 if I am killing American, or even Canadian zombies, sorry about that my friends from the great white north, and the AK47 if I am killing those damn eastern block zombies.

[Onslaught]

I own an AR-15. I traded my AK-47 to get it.
Who doesn't have time to clean a rifle?
In what situation will you shoot 1000 rounds through an AR, at unarmed zombies, without cleaning it? (Give a situation where you would not be boned anyway.)

You don't have to keep the thing white-glove spotless for it to function. Just keep it lubed and clean the lugs/carrier every 800-100 rounds or so. Carbon buildup on the bolt tail isn't that big an issue, just keep the cam slot and carrier body clean, and lube the crap out of the rings and lugs.

People love to talk about how "dirty" the AR is but my AK used to get so much crap in it from the laquered/sealed russian ammo that cleaning it was a far bigger pain.

As long as you can find 10 minutes (and some solvent/oil) a week you'll be fine with an AR-15 (if you're shooting 800 rounds a week after the outbreak, you've got one hell of an ammo dump, and therefore, time to clean your weapon.) Heck, do it while your food is cooking, or before you go to sleep.

In terms of platform and ballistics, there is no contest. The AR-15 wins hands down. It has much less recoil, which leads to faster follow ups. The round has a flatter trajectory and travels about 1000fps faster. Just ask the russians why they switched to 5.45X39. And 5.56/.223 is much more plentiful in the U.S. As an added perk, it is also reloadable, the steel cased 7.62 is not. Iron sights are also much nicer on the AR.

The ak is a great rifle, especially for arming non-north american peasants and farmers, but it is simply outclassed in America by the more modern, domestic AR-15.

[CAVU45]

The question you need to look at I think is relabitly, I would take an Ak anyday over an AR/M-16/m-4. In a survival situation I would not want to have to break down my rifle and be without my main battle rifle, ar-15 are great rifles dont get me wrong but unless you are going to clean them frequently, they are not good for field situations in anyones hands but a soldier, AK's you can put in anyones hands. I was trained on the M16A2(when they were first intigrated) into the Army and have shot civy versions since, and I would still take an AK, which is my main "Battle Rifle"

Clean them frequently? What do you call frequent cleaning? Anyone can learn to shoot and maintain an AR platform with ease. It isn't a techincal gun. In fact, there are fewer moving parts than on an AK. Reliability is not an issue with them.

[Creeping Death]

I own an AR-15. I traded my AK-47 to get it.
Who doesn't have time to clean a rifle?
In what situation will you shoot 1000 rounds through an AR, at unarmed zombies, without cleaning it? (Give a situation where you would not be boned anyway.)

You don't have to keep the thing white-glove spotless for it to function. Just keep it lubed and clean the lugs/carrier every 800-100 rounds or so. Carbon buildup on the bolt tail isn't that big an issue, just keep the cam slot and carrier body clean, and lube the crap out of the rings and lugs.

People love to talk about how "dirty" the AR is but my AK used to get so much crap in it from the laquered/sealed russian ammo that cleaning it was a far bigger pain.

As long as you can find 10 minutes (and some solvent/oil) a week you'll be fine with an AR-15 (if you're shooting 800 rounds a week after the outbreak, you've got one hell of an ammo dump, and therefore, time to clean your weapon.) Heck, do it while your food is cooking, or before you go to sleep.

In terms of platform and ballistics, there is no contest. The AR-15 wins hands down. It has much less recoil, which leads to faster follow ups. The round has a flatter trajectory and travels about 1000fps faster. Just ask the russians why they switched to 5.45X39. And 5.56/.223 is much more plentiful in the U.S. As an added perk, it is also reloadable, the steel cased 7.62 is not. Iron sights are also much nicer on the AR.

The ak is a great rifle, especially for arming non-north american peasants and farmers, but it is simply outclassed in America by the more modern, domestic AR-15.

Uh, what he said. :-|

[Bob]

I have multiples of both and honestly I prefer the AR.
However don't sell the AK short, they have killed untold thousands of people.

But for the cost of a good AR you can outfit yourself with guns.
A used Colt 6920 goes for about a thousand.

$400 AK ordered from Internet delivered and in your hands.
$175 Used 870
$400 Used Glock 22

[Birdman44]

I have multiples of both and honestly I prefer the AR.
However don't sell the AK short, they have killed untold thousands of people.

But for the cost of a good AR you can outfit yourself with guns.
A used Colt 6920 goes for about a thousand.

$400 AK ordered from Internet delivered and in your hands.
$175 Used 870
$400 Used Glock 22

Not that I don't like the look and feel of an M4 (only held one), but my bargain senses are tingling... :?

[mattifikation]

When it comes down to it, an AR guy will be busy lackadaisically cleaning his jammed rifle while the AK guy runs through 10 magazines shooting the crap out of everything between 5 and 10 feet away from the AR guy.

Oh wait, does that sound painfully exaggerated? It's probably because the downsides of both weapons are blown wayyyy out of proportion, and either gun will freaking kill you if somebody shoots you in the head with one...

Edit to add:

People blow the benefits of both guns out of proportion, also. They act like you can never miss with an AR (So why does it need high capacity magazines?) and you never need to clean an AK (So why do they make cleaning kits for them?)

[Onslaught]

When it comes down to it, an AR guy will be busy lackadaisically cleaning his jammed rifle while the AK guy runs through 10 magazines shooting the crap out of everything between 5 and 10 feet away from the AR guy.

Oh wait, does that sound painfully exaggerated? It's probably because the downsides of both weapons are blown wayyyy out of proportion, and either gun will freaking kill you if somebody shoots you in the head with one...

Edit to add:

People blow the benefits of both guns out of proportion, also. They act like you can never miss with an AR (So why does it need high capacity magazines?) and you never need to clean an AK (So why do they make cleaning kits for them?)

Right Matt.

However, there is a reason that he AR is used to hunt prairie dogs at 300yd and the AK is used to blast milk jugs at 50. Just take a look at the aftermarket. Magpul, Troy, LaRue, VLTOR, Knights, these are all high end makers of very nice kit for the AR. Who makes aftermarket stuff for the AK. Tapco?

I liked my AK, I had no problems with it whatsoever. But then I shot an AR and I saw what a carbine could be. It's ok to like your AK, just don't kid yourself that it's as good as an AR. That's like saying your CRX is better than a CTS-V because it get's better gas mileage.

My reminton 1100 is everything I'll ever need in a shotgun, but that doesn't mean that I can't recognise the superioity of the benelli M4.

PS. you had to know it would come to this. Every, and I mean EVERY, ARvsAK thread grinds to a stalemate as one side tries to convince the other side unsuccessfully. It's like god vs atheism or coke vs pepsi, nobody wins.

[ShotGunGuy93]

Smart ass, I'm not stupid, I'll never fire a deagle in my life; give it to my friends :)
This is about a comparison from M16's and AK 47's, and although it's a good gun, the caliber pisses me off; you can kill a zombie with a rock if you have to, but as an actual gun here in reality, I'd take the AK. N i apologized already for the 7.62 mistake, teacher walked in, and i can't really type numbers without looking lol.

Good point J Dub, lol, why fight when you can have both?

Lol, dont fret, I was just giving you shit. :)

Another annoying thing is people saying that M16 ammo (5.56x45) is easier to find than AK-47 Ammo (7.62x39). At any given time, my local gun store has at least 3000 rounds or more of wolf 7.62x39.

[mattifikation]

Neither gun is more accurate than the person pulling the trigger. My point is simply that when 20 dead people are trying to eat you and are close to succeeding, you'll probably do more than your fair share of missing regardless of how accurate your gun is.

And you can't convince me to change sides because I'm not on a side. There are situations where one will serve you better than the other, and there are situations where you wouldn't want to be caught dead with one instead of the other.

Think about it... which rifle would you rather have when you need to engage a threat from 500 meters away? I know the answer to this one. Now, which rifle would you rather have if you had to belly crawl through a swamp and you were out of cleaning supplies? I think I know the answer to that one, too.

The AR vs. AK debate always grinds to a stalemate because nobody can ever admit that humans are only capable of building imperfect machines.

[hotlead]

Think about it... which rifle would you rather have when you need to engage a threat from 500 meters away? I know the answer to this one. Now, which rifle would you rather have if you had to belly crawl through a swamp and you were out of cleaning supplies? I think I know the answer to that one, too.

M14.

humans are only capable of building imperfect machines.

Except the M14.

[Bob]

It's like Glock vs 1911 there is no 100% right answer.

[Creeping Death]

This thread should definitely have a poll in it. :doh:

[Hunk]

It's like Glock vs 1911 there is no 100% right answer.

definately

[Hunk]

This thread should definitely have a poll in it. :doh:

its up...vote like hell

[mattifikation]

Well, I picked M16 simply because I think there would be more circumstances where you need range and accuracy than the ability to "bury your gun in the mud for a year, pick it up, and shoot it" or whatever the claim is for AK's.

[Onslaught]

Lol, dont fret, I was just giving you shit. :)

Another annoying thing is people saying that M16 ammo (5.56x45) is easier to find than AK-47 Ammo (7.62x39). At any given time, my local gun store has at least 3000 rounds or more of wolf 7.62x39.

How much 5.56/.223 do they stock?

The idea with the availability is that after the SHTF no more commie steel ammo will be imported. If you stopped all production/importation of ammo today, there would be more 5.56/.223 within the borders of this country than 7.62X39, and more infrastructure in place to make .223. The 7.62 is also a more finite resource because it can not be reloaded, the AR food can. So, in a nut shell, the domestically manufactured hunting/military round is more common than the imported russian military round.

[CAVU45]

Lol, dont fret, I was just giving you shit. :)

Another annoying thing is people saying that M16 ammo (5.56x45) is easier to find than AK-47 Ammo (7.62x39). At any given time, my local gun store has at least 3000 rounds or more of wolf 7.62x39.

All things being equal, chances are in any given situation one will find 5.56 (or .223) easier and more plentifully than 7.62x39.

[kiltedninja]

Well, considering I'll be using M16 for the better part of the next six years, I'm going to choose that one.

[Comander Shaw]

M-16
higher rateof fire
less recoil
accurate as hell
farther range
only bad thing is jamming issues
all in all it's ****ING AMAZING

[Redneck]

All things being equal, chances are in any given situation one will find 5.56 (or .223) easier and more plentifully than 7.62x39.

BUT THERE WILL BE MORE PEOPLE LOOKING FOR IT!!!!:x:x

In the end both are great weapons, and both will fork up some zombies.:evil:

[CAVU45]

BUT THERE WILL BE MORE PEOPLE LOOKING FOR IT!!!!:x:x

In the end both are great weapons, and both will fork up some zombies.:evil:

AND THERE'S A SHITTON MORE OF IT!!!!!!:x :x :x

Plus, as has been pointed out, it can be reloaded a hell of a lot easier than the 7.62x39.

[556superman]

M16 as in M4 or AR civilian variant
reasons:
Reliability-Easy to maintain and breakdown is simple

Caliber(standard 5.56x45 or .223)-Popular caliber, small, light weight, controllable muzzle climb

Sustained Fire-Easier to control less recoil


Modularity-Accepts different caliber upper receivers (5.56x45mm/.223,.224, 5.7x28mm, 9mm, .22, .450 Bushmaster, .410 gauge, .50 Beowulf, .50 BMG, .45 acp, .204 ruger, 6.8 spc, ETC...) and has GENERALLY the same type of bolt carrier systems

Tactical Modularity-Numerous accessories for comfort and practicality, long range effectiveness with the different caliber upper receivers, easier to convert to fully automatic and selective fire

Popularity-Makes parts more readily available, Magazines are usually easier to find and it accepts low capacity and high capacity mags unlike some AKs

Downfall- Cost (even when you build it yourself the cost is still in that high area)


i think i covered just about everything

[Dark Gale]

M16 as in M4 or AR civilian variant

M16 as in M16. The M4 and AR are two other guns...

[CAVU45]

M16 as in M16. The M4 and AR are two other guns...

Actually they're all part of the AR family of firearms. The M4 is a derivative of the M16. The AR is the civilian version.

[mattifikation]

But but but... surely shortening the barrel and throwing some rails on it makes it a WHOLE DIFFERENT GUN... right?

[weirdenator]

both are good but ak-47 for me

[Dark Gale]

I didn't mean completely different. I know they are all just variants of the same design. But the question was M16 or AK47, not M4, or AR, or any of that. Sorry if the one who made this thread was using M16 as a more general description.

[556superman]

I didn't mean completely different. I know they are all just variants of the same design. But the question was M16 or AK47, not M4, or AR, or any of that. Sorry if the one who made this thread was using M16 as a more general description.

they are all variants of the same design but principally the same gun. if you look at the AK it has many different models and variants also AK47 is a generalized type of rifle because you have everything from a wasr10 to a mac90. by labeling it M16 i believe the OP meant a full auto variant or model of that type of platform.

[50 cal]

I have 5 AR's and 2 AK74's. They both have their strong points. But in a rush, I would grab one of my M4geries and go.

The AK74's are a hoot to play with but their accuracy leaves a little to be desired.
The AR's are much more accurate. My single 20" barreeld AR is a tack driver. But I really like my M4geries much more.

The 74's I bought through work to play with. Bought 'em cheap and ammo is really cheap. $220 a 2100rd case. But the ammo is corrosive primed. Easy enough to clean up after shooting, that is why its cheap.

[hotlead]

Can't talk about stamped AK-47s, AK-74s, or any variant thereof, either.

Only the first milled AK that Mikail Kalashnikov himself made and the first M-16 that Eugene Stoner himself made, well actually the first rifle that Stoner made and marketed was the AR-10 in .308, followed by the AR-15 in .223. When the Air Force adopted it it became the M-16, and subsequent improvements have given the DOD the M-16A1, A2, A3, A4, XM-177, CAR-15, and the M-4, and a few more I'm sure. But you know what I mean, just talk about milled AK-47s and the M-16 adopted by the USAF in the mid-60s with bakelite stock and handgaurd.

[ShotGunGuy93]

But but but... surely shortening the barrel and throwing some rails on it makes it a WHOLE DIFFERENT GUN... right?

iT mAkEs iT mOaR bEtTeR anD te BeSt GuN EvAr!!1one

[CAVU45]

But but but... surely shortening the barrel and throwing some rails on it makes it a WHOLE DIFFERENT GUN... right?

Oh absolutely! It makes it...not an M16.

[CAVU45]

both are good but ak-47 for me

There's a ringing endorsement. Why the AK?

[Bob]

IMNSHO any of the AKs that are reliable are ok.
They are a better choice than a shotgun.
If the online price for a Romanian falls below $300 I am going to buy one for each of my grandsons.

[Frallon]

Well, I picked M16 simply because I think there would be more circumstances where you need range and accuracy than the ability to "bury your gun in the mud for a year, pick it up, and shoot it" or whatever the claim is for AK's.
The only thing benefiting about that tag line is when someone else comes across your dead body, and sees an AK-47, they wont second guess how lucky they are that ATZ told them not to worry about cleaning it.

[Slayer]

I prefer the AK-47, and I will explain. In the past I had an AR-15, decided to sell it and kept my standard wood stock WASR 7.62X39 AK, that's right, I turned down the AR for a stamped AK. It just felt fragile to me in comparison to the AK. I can take apart the AK blindfolded and am very familiar with the system. In my opinion reliability is key, and for however reliable an AR-15 system may be, the AK will beat it in that department. The AK has more stopping power, and even with this stamped model, it's well accurate enough for 100 yard zombie head shots. 7.62X39 is everywhere, even my Walmart has two or three times as much of it as their .223/5.56. While in the Cold War ammo might have been hard to come by for it, now, it's relatively cheap and as common as .22 LR. And, I appear to shoot better with it than the AR-15, probably because of my familiarity with the rifle design.

[Bob]

Slayer
Hard to argue with that.
When you state it is a personal preference you win.

Personally I would choose an AR but would have no qualms about using any of my AKs except the pistol that is a novelty item.

[Hunk]

But but but... surely shortening the barrel and throwing some rails on it makes it a WHOLE DIFFERENT GUN... right?

pretty much...it makes it a carbine

[Hunk]

id go for an AK because the military would most likely be running the show, im sure theyre not gonna be happy if you scavenge some m16A2's off of a dead marine,

Auto Aks may be illegal but can be easily converted since no "Civilian" models have been made (Semiauto)

Get a semiauto ak and a auto conversion kit and an instructions book and your good to go

[Hunk]

Please dont change the title,its strictly m16 vs ak

[CAVU45]

pretty much...it makes it a carbine

Wrong. It's still the same gun. Nothing really changed but barrel length.

[CAVU45]

id go for an AK because the military would most likely be running the show, im sure theyre not gonna be happy if you scavenge some m16A2's off of a dead marine,

Auto Aks may be illegal but can be easily converted since no "Civilian" models have been made (Semiauto)

Get a semiauto ak and a auto conversion kit and an instructions book and your good to go

It's not nearly as easy you lead people to believe and can be damned expensive and extremely dangerous to try to convert that civvie Ak to full auto fire. I wouldn't recommend it unless you really want to remove yourself from the gene pool.

[Redneck]

It's not nearly as easy and can be damned expensive and extremely dangerous to try to convert that civvie Ak to full auto fire. I wouldn't recommend it unless you really want to remove yourself from the gene pool.

Just don't do it. FA burns more ammo, and misses alot more.
Anyone using FA on z-day, is a dumb:poo:.

[Hunk]

Just don't do it. FA burns more ammo, and misses alot more.
Anyone using FA on z-day, is a dumb:poo:.

yeah...im just sayin tho

[CAVU45]

yeah...im just sayin tho

I'm just saying tho', what you've heard about converting a semi AK to FA is wrong. You've probably been told that you can file down a certain part and/or knocking a hole in a certain area will make the AK full auto. That isn't the case and to follow those instructions will compromise the safety and integrity of the weapon placing yourself and all those around you in danger of that weapon exploding when it fires out of battery. There's alot that goes into making the AK into a FA firearm which includes the swapping of several parts which are illegal for you to purchase. I don't post this to make you feel like an idiot, but out of concern for your and others' safety. I can't stress enough how dangerous it is to attempt to modify your weapon unless you're a trained and certified gunsmith. I've been around guns most of my life as a hunter, target shooter, and soldier where I've used them in combat. I own several to include 2 1/2 ARs (the 1/2 is the one I'm currently building). I've been shooting the AR platform more years than you've been alive (again, that's not meant to denigrate you, it's simply fact). I've heard the tales of how easy it is to convert that platform to FA and just like the AK it isn't true. There have been numerous people injured and killed trying to convert their weapons on their kitchen table following instructions found on the internet or passed to them by a "friend". Don't fall into that trap!! Don't buy the nifty gadgets seen on the internet that will supposedly make your weapon"legally FA". Again, they can compromise the integrity and safety of your weapon. Shoot well, shoot often, but above all shoot safely.

[unnamedbaby77]

Speaking of modifying weapons :
I just used a few old browning HP 15rd 9mm mags to make extra mags for my EAA witness 40(the magazines are VERY similar) all I had to do was re-cut the catch hole and blamo, the damn things hold more than the factory mags! :x

[sk8rmichael]

i personaly like the AK's more we have 4 sks and one mini 14 ive shot a m16 and i just didnt like it as much as the mini or the sks i kinda wana get an actual ak tho:x

[Hunk]

I didn't mean completely different. I know they are all just variants of the same design. But the question was M16 or AK47, not M4, or AR, or any of that. Sorry if the one who made this thread was using M16 as a more general description.

NO specifically m16a2...standard issue for us military

[Hunk]

I'm just saying tho', what you've heard about converting a semi AK to FA is wrong. You've probably been told that you can file down a certain part and/or knocking a hole in a certain area will make the AK full auto. That isn't the case and to follow those instructions will compromise the safety and integrity of the weapon placing yourself and all those around you in danger of that weapon exploding when it fires out of battery. There's alot that goes into making the AK into a FA firearm which includes the swapping of several parts which are illegal for you to purchase. I don't post this to make you feel like an idiot, but out of concern for your and others' safety. I can't stress enough how dangerous it is to attempt to modify your weapon unless you're a trained and certified gunsmith. I've been around guns most of my life as a hunter, target shooter, and soldier where I've used them in combat. I own several to include 2 1/2 ARs (the 1/2 is the one I'm currently building). I've been shooting the AR platform more years than you've been alive (again, that's not meant to denigrate you, it's simply fact). I've heard the tales of how easy it is to convert that platform to FA and just like the AK it isn't true. There have been numerous people injured and killed trying to convert their weapons on their kitchen table following instructions found on the internet or passed to them by a "friend". Don't fall into that trap!! Don't buy the nifty gadgets seen on the internet that will supposedly make your weapon"legally FA". Again, they can compromise the integrity and safety of your weapon. Shoot well, shoot often, but above all shoot safely.

no i was talking about getting the parts...not drilling holes like a dumbass

[CAVU45]

no i was talking about getting the parts...not drilling holes like a dumbass

Okay. Next problem would be if the receiver is milspec and could handle the force of FA. Maybe those with more experience with the civvie AK can answer that one? I believe there are some differences between the milspec FA and the civilian model.

[unnamedbaby77]

I had an Egyptian civilian AK a while back that used to go full auto once every eight or so shots...I think it was damaged though.....I dunno it was years ago .

[mattifikation]

I've seen civie AK's get bump fired like crazy and not have any problems. I don't know what all goes into modifying one to be full auto, so if there were going to be structural problems it would be with whatever you did to mod it.

I think the original question has now been whittled down to something completely unfair. One specific model of M16 vs. any type of AK you could want? That's crap. Of course the AK is going to win that challenge because it's the only one where you can choose the specific tool for the job at hand.

It's a loaded question. It's like asking "What's a better vehicle to get, a Chevy Malibu or any Ford?" or "Which tastes better, a Big Mac from McDonald's or whatever you want from Burger King?"

[Hunk]

Okay. Next problem would be if the receiver is milspec and could handle the force of FA. Maybe those with more experience with the civvie AK can answer that one? I believe there are some differences between the milspec FA and the civilian model.

there were never any civy aks made they were all fa's converted to semi...im pretty sure at least

[Hunk]

ak-47 or m16 a2!

[mattifikation]

I told you. AK-47 because there are dozens of variants that are suitable for different tasks, but only one M16-A2.

Balance the question a bit, and you'll have a fair debate.

[Redneck]

What variants are you talking about for the AK-47?
The AKM? AK-74? AK-101?

[mattifikation]

What barrel length? Wood or polymer stocks? Folding stock? Collapsible stock? Front grip, or no front grip? Select fire, or semi-auto? Tactical rails? You can change all of these things about the gun, and still have an "AK-47."

You can change accessories on the M16 also, but doing so changes the designation. That's why it's a loaded question. You shorten the barrel on an AK-47 and add a top rail, it's still an AK-47. You do the same to an M16, and it would be considered an M4 - even though mechanically it's the same gun, with the same serial number and the same lower receiver.

That's why the question, unless you either become willing to accept other M16 varients or be more specific about what AK-47 we're talking about, is a loaded question which frankly displays a lot of ignorance about the M16 platform.

[Bob]

Not an expert on AK internals but I do know they do something to slow the rate of fire.
I don't know however if it was done for reliability or conservation of resources.

[mattifikation]

My guess would be for accuracy.

[CAVU45]

there were never any civy aks made they were all fa's converted to semi...im pretty sure at least

Of course there are. Hell, they're made here in the states all the time! The Russian plant has been cranking them out by the thousands.

[CAVU45]

ak-47 or m16 a2!

Who made the rule that the discussion was limited to the A2?

[hotlead]

there were never any civy aks made they were all fa's converted to semi...im pretty sure at least

Your facts are off, all legally imported and publicly transferred AKs were made as semi-auto only from the factory, or they couldn't come into the country.

The ATF goes by the idea of "Once a machinegun, always a machinegun", that's why we can't have demilled M14s or M2 Carbines as surplus sales like other countries like Canada and New Zealand. Even though milling the connector lug of the M14 receiver permanently alters it to semi-auto only, and the only difference between a M1 and M2 Carbine receiver is the 2 in M2.

[Bob]

You know what really irks me is the 1986 FA ban.

It's crazy what FA costs.

[Hunk]

Who made the rule that the discussion was limited to the A2?

UUHHHH me because i started this thread....drop and give me 50

[CAVU45]

Actually, Detpat started the thread so it owuld be up to him to allow or disallow as he sees fit. Also, in the post you originated you made mention of the A3 and A4 models. Why try to limit it now to a single model. Would you limit discussion of the AK to the same? Say the original Russian version of 1947 with no derivations?

[mattifikation]

ZombieAddict, you know as well as everyone else that if somebody started a new thread asking the same question, but allowing for all M16 variants to be considered, it would be merged right here into this one. And in this case, that would be a very understandable action. So we might as well save the moderators the trouble and just discuss it here in this thread, don't you agree?

Whether you like it or not, when people discuss ARs vs. AKs they are going to take all of the versions of both guns into consideration. Or at least they should, if they want to be taken seriously.

[mattifikation]

Actually, Detpat started the thread so it owuld be up to him to allow or disallow as he sees fit. Also, in the post you originated you made mention of the A3 and A4 models. Why try to limit it now to a single model. Would you limit discussion of the AK to the same? Say the original Russian version of 1947 with no derivations?

You'll notice he refuses to answer that question, or even acknowledge that people are asking it. I don't think he understands enough about either gun or their designations to give us a real answer, to be honest.

[CAVU45]

You'll notice he refuses to answer that question, or even acknowledge that people are asking it. I don't think he understands enough about either gun or their designations to give us a real answer, to be honest.

I know. You asked a similar question earlier with about the same response.

[Bob]

Honestly I don't think most people realize how many variants there are.

[Birdman44]

Honestly I don't think most people realize how many variants there are.

And you certainly can't forget about all the frankenstien guns made from all kinds of parts and just thrown together :zom1:

[detpat]

ok, read it all and i meant to include all of the members of each family and didn't want to confuse those of less weapon sophistication. please feel free to discuss any variation you would like.

one of the reasons the Ak family has a reputation for lesser accuracy is that the AKM and other modern variations have a lot of flexibility in the receiver. i once saw an extreme slo mo clip of an ak firing and was amazed at the degree of flex in the receiver/barrel. this was firing on the adverse setting mind you.

An AR can be made to be incredibly accurate, no other modern fighting weapon is quite so accurate. i have an AR built for me by a former Army shop supervisor who spent his last 9 years in the service building rifles that went AAMTU to be sent on to units in Astan and the sandbox, SPR's, and it's easily a 800 meter precision rifle. out shoots any other rifle i own, including my M1A [which i sold]!

I think the reason i would go with an AR as my ultimate go to is that i have more training and experience with it than any other. in the case of a stoppage i would not even have to think about the remedy. by the time i did, i would have it back up and running again!

You can also get plenty of AK 74 variants as wll, and then your ammo is somewhat more equivalent to the 5.56mm. just remember to avoid the CAI version of the Tantal as it has barrels of the wrong bore diameter and will keyhole at any range.

[Bob]

CAI?
California Art Institute?

LOL I know who you are referring to but others might not you should be a bit clearer.

[CAVU45]

just remember to avoid the CAI version of the Tantal as it has barrels of the wrong bore diameter and will keyhole at any range.

They aren't known for putting out a quality firearm. I know several people who've bought weapons from them and all had to have the guns worked on by a gunsmith before they could be used.

[detpat]

so right BOB, everyone should know of the horrors perpetrated by century arms international.

they have mode some of the worst gun shaped objects known to man. if you have an AK that won't function, you should carefully check it for the mark of contagion, CAI !

[detpat]

does anybody know why this post keeps showing up in a "new post" search without any new posts?

[Bob]

It is the awesomeness of my posts shining forth.

[mattifikation]

When people vote in the poll, it bumps the thread.

[Birdman44]

When people vote in the poll, it bumps the thread.

That would explain it :doh: I was wondering the same thing.

[Slayer]

Bob

http://www.decalguy.com/images/1500.jpg

[zombieman3219]

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1528/ak47tacticalwx3.jpg

that is beastley:evil:

[detpat]

i feel stupid, i knew that and didn't think about the poll. eye ar dum!:scare:

[Bob]

Slayer
I like the sticker.

[shhhzombies]

I really am fine with either insofar as they are well made representatives of their respected variant, though I would lean toward the M16 family for the sake of finding parts, bullets, optics, mags, cleaning supplies etc. One thing I would keep in mind if I were to find myself wandering the zpaw with a AK variant is that it is not, in fact, a unstoppable, unjamable, death machine that I can abuse forever and bury unprotected in the dirt for a month and expect to work when i dig it up. I would pay no mind to 99 percent of the crap I read and hear about how tough it is and remember that it is a mechanical piece of kit that can fail, has failed alot of people, is made out of metal that can rust, and keep in mind that if I abuse it and break it I'll be more or less screwed since my guns broke and all the working guns I find from there on out will more than likely be in the hands of people who will have no interest in giving parts or a complete firearm to someone who is unarmed and thus a non-voting member of the survivor community.

[mattifikation]

Blasphemy!
Everyone who's ever looked at an AK-47 on the Internet knows that you can't break an AK-47 no matter what. AK-47s are what Chuck Norris is made out of. You can weld AK-47 receivers to the outside of your car and it becomes a tank.

Next you'll probably try to tell us that AR-15s can miss, or that M1A's have a range limit...

[shhhzombies]

I apologize, and formally retract my earlier statements. AK47s never jam, never wear out, have infinity mags, and make you more attractive to the opposite sex.

[mattifikation]

You forgot that they give you the ability to grow sweet mustaches in 1 day.

[Bob]

Perhaps we need to bury an AK in mud, run over it with a truck then rinse it in a ditch and see if it still shoots.

mud
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPbF0kKyc2c&feature=player_embedded#

Sand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FXK-VRkqqM&NR=1

dirt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuAw5iYDPM4


AR vs AK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqRwx4wtmms&feature=related

[shhhzombies]

Can the truck be a Kia Bongo?

[Bob]

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5585/gianttruck36312375.jpg (http://img180.imageshack.us/i/gianttruck36312375.jpg/)

[mattifikation]

That last video was eye-opening, Bob. The related videos that I've watched so far all had similar results. Now it has me really envying AR owners... :-(

[mattifikation]

You know, I've just thought of something. Whenever you see a picture of an AR-15, it's always perfectly clean. You see them on gun magazine covers all the time, and the finish is always black-as-night without a scratch on it.

When you see images of AK-47s, it's usually some insurgent-looking character hauling it around the desert with dirt all over it. They're usually seen with the classic wood furniture, looking beat-up and apocalyptic. Many purists wouldn't have it any other way.

Maybe the squeaky-clean imagery we see of the AR-15 contributes to its reputation has needing to be kept that clean? People see pictures of the two guns, and they subconsciously assume that how they are presented is how they are designed to be used.

[homelitexl]

im a bit more of a fan of german tech i like the stg44

[CAVU45]

Maybe the squeaky-clean imagery we see of the AR-15 contributes to its reputation has needing to be kept that clean? People see pictures of the two guns, and they subconsciously assume that how they are presented is how they are designed to be used.

That could be a possibility. The AR platform got a bad name when first introduced in Vietnam way back in the 1960s due to problems not of its own making but gross stupidity by the Army. No matter how many improvements have been made over the years it still carries the stigma of Vietnam. One thing I noticed is that the AR's biggest detractors are people who've never carried the gun in combat or have any real experience with it. Many have never even held one, let alone fired a round through one.

[zbuddy]

That could be a possibility. The AR platform got a bad name when first introduced in Vietnam way back in the 1960s due to problems not of its own making but gross stupidity by the Army. No matter how many improvements have been made over the years it still carries the stigma of Vietnam. One thing I noticed is that the AR's biggest detractors are people who've never carried the gun in combat or have any real experience with it. Many have never even held one, let alone fired a round through one.

The only problem I ever had with one was magazines failing to feed. However, I would not be surprised if the mags were from Vietnam hahaha.

[CAVU45]

Many of the problems with ARs are magazine related, especially when crappy GI mags are used.

[Mr. Grey]

I actually own 1 of each so, it's kind of difficult to choose. I had to pick the M16 (AR) though.

[homelitexl]

if were goin assualt rifle i choose stg44

[Bob]

The AR vs AK clip was kind of eye opening wasn't it?

The other day I saw some guys talking about the price of .223 on another forum.
They were saying that a box of 20 was roughly $10 at Wal-Mart and how that was such a good price.

OMFG no one can do simple math anymore.
What the hell are they teaching in school these days?
That's fifty cents a round!!!
That's $50 a hundred!
That's $500 a thousand!

That is not a good price.

I occasionally buy some of it myself but I do it with my eyes open knowing I am paying for convenience.

I can get brass cased .223 for 27 cents or $275 a thousand on line.
Big difference in price but even this is OMFG are they on drugs charging that much pricing.
I can get 7.62x39 for 20 cent a round or $200 a thousand.

I think the prices are being held high to maximize profits.
I know the price of black rifles is being held artificially high.

[Mr. Grey]

The AR vs AK clip was kind of eye opening wasn't it?

The other day I saw some guys talking about the price of .223 on another forum.
They were saying that a box of 20 was roughly $10 at Wal-Mart and how that was such a good price.

OMFG no one can do simple math anymore.
What the hell are they teaching in school these days?
That's fifty cents a round!!!
That's $50 a hundred!
That's $500 a thousand!

That is not a good price.

I occasionally buy some of it myself but I do it with my eyes open knowing I am paying for convenience.

I can get brass cased .223 for 27 cents or $275 a thousand on line.
Big difference in price but even this is OMFG are they on drugs charging that much pricing.
I can get 7.62x39 for 20 cent a round or $200 a thousand.

I think the prices are being held high to maximize profits.
I know the price of black rifles is being held artificially high.

I totally agree with you Bob. I think they are keeping the prices high intentionally. Take the .45's for example. If you can find them they are around .50 cents a piece. That's rediculous. I remember buying for 15.00 a box for 50 count about 4 years ago.

[CAVU45]

Supply and demand. Simple as that. 5.56 (.223) is high due to two wars and all the training associated with getting troops ready for them. That pushes the price of components ridiculously high. Add the hysteria over the Obama election with the run on guns and ammunition and the industry was ripe for scarcity. All the raw materials needed to produce the vast amounts of ammunition the military is using causes shortages across the board. As is usual with any industry though, I doubt we'll see a return to pre-war prices. Same with guns. The makers know they can get the price they want, so even though prices have come down some, they'll never return to pre-election prices.

[Mr. Grey]

Supply and demand. Simple as that. 5.56 (.223) is high due to two wars and all the training associated with getting troops ready for them. That pushes the price of components ridiculously high. Add the hysteria over the Obama election with the run on guns and ammunition and the industry was ripe for scarcity. All the raw materials needed to produce the vast amounts of ammunition the military is using causes shortages across the board. As is usual with any industry though, I doubt we'll see a return to pre-war prices. Same with guns. The makers know they can get the price they want, so even though prices have come down some, they'll never return to pre-election prices.

I agree with the the war issue but the supply and demand I don't fully agree with. On any given day I can go out and buy a box of 9mm rounds for about 17.00. 9mm is the round that the military uses in it's handguns and there doesn't seem to be a cost issue. However .45's are not military issue and you pay through the nose.

[CAVU45]

It shouldn't be too hard to find out how sales of 9mm compare to .45acp. Around here it's just the opposite. 9mm is more expensive than .45acp.

[Mr. Grey]

Really? Then maybe we should talk offline.......:evil: