12 gauge vs. 20 gauge

[Tripoli]

I’ve been shooting scatterguns for many years and anything I’ve been able to do with my 12 gauge I’ve been able to do with my 20 gauge equally well.

I don’t believe a shotgun should be any person’s primary anti-zombie weapon. I do believe that a shotgun is an asset to have in a fire team or as a backup weapon.

1. What is your opinion on “12 gauge vs. 20 gauge”?
2. Is the extra shot of the 12 gauge worth the weight?
3. Is the availability of a 12 gauge better than a 20?
4. Can you do the same damage with a 12 gauge or a 20?
5. Autoloader vs. Pump vs. Twin Barrels vs. Single Shot?
6. Should you have a scattergun at all?

[jagus12]

I think Ill just grab everything I get in my range, but if I have to choose, I guess Ill just stick to an AK-47 or M16

[Tripoli]

I think Ill just grab everything I get in my range, but if I have to choose, I guess Ill just stick to an AK-47 or M16

I think you will die a slow painful death because you lack the skill to read and comprehend the thread. There is another place to talk about AKs and 16s, it's not here.

[jagus12]

I think you will die a slow painful death because you lack the skill to read and comprehend the thread. There is another place to talk about AKs and 16s, it's not here.

Oh, sorry :doh:
Anyway, in a world dominated by zombies, you wont have a lot of time to reload your weapon so I think ill use a 12 gauge

[Tripoli]

Cool, I better learn to control my RAGE or I might kill survivors. . . LOL

jagus12 - "Ill think ill survive, if I can contain my homicidal rage (let me explain myself, after killing lots of zombies I may go ****ing insane kill everything, including survivors , I hope that doesn't happen) "

[jagus12]

Cool, I better learn to control my RAGE or I might kill survivors. . . LOL

jagus12 - "Ill think ill survive, if I can contain my homicidal rage (let me explain myself, after killing lots of zombies I may go ****ing insane kill everything, including survivors , I hope that doesn't happen) "

Umm, what? I didn't write that anywhere anyway

EDIT: Im so sorry :doh:, that was my friggin brother, he's always trying to make me look like a psycho or something, the sick bastard, goddamnit!!!

[detpat]

20 gauge is pretty efficient, it has 3/4 the payload for 1/2 the recoil. availability is the biggest issue, next time you go to wally world check for 20 gauge ammo.

20's work well for smaller people and people with slighter builds.

[Hitman]

I'll stick with 12ga. I have the most ammo for it and a better selection of it. also my 20 GA it not built nearly as robustly as my 12ga's are. the recoil and weight would make it a better choise for a smaller person or a female. they tend to be smaller guns anyway with quite a few being termed "youth" .

as for action type. I have both pumps and auto's , both function equaly as well with a slight nod going to the pump . the autos are faster when follow up shots are needed and /or motor skills go to hell. the double barrel and single shot are a big disadvantage .

to bring up the ammo supply again , go to wall mart . they will have quite a few boxes of each but while 95% of the 20ga will be birdshot the remainder will be slugs or very small buckshot. neither of which I thing will give any advantge to the shotgun over even a decent rifle (like a marlin .30-30) . the 12 ga shelf will have tons more birdshot (bulk 100rd boxes here) but there will be buckshot up to 000 and slugs . then there are the specailty rounds like door breeching rounds , flechettes , dragons breath , marine flares, etc .

I still see the shotgun as a door breecher and backup not much else

[detpat]

I'd have to agree mostly. The wallmarts in my area don't cerry any 20 gauge ammo at all.

[Zombie_215]

1. What is your opinion on “12 gauge vs. 20 gauge”?
2. Is the extra shot of the 12 gauge worth the weight?
3. Is the availability of a 12 gauge better than a 20?
4. Can you do the same damage with a 12 gauge or a 20?
5. Autoloader vs. Pump vs. Twin Barrels vs. Single Shot?
6. Should you have a scattergun at all?

1 & 3. Both are good guns, but I am leaning towards the 12 gauge, because of availability.

2. I didn't realize you get an extra shot.

4. I always thought the 12 gauge was the more powerful of the two, but I might be wrong.

5. Pump action is the way to go. (In my opinion) From what I have read autoloaders jam way to often for my liking! :x Twin barrels and the single shot would be faster to reload, but I would feel more comfortable with more than one or two shots, before needing to reload.

6. It is a good backup weapon and it would be a good choice if you are surrounded and need to make some room.

[Tripoli]

"Shot" is a collective term for small balls of lead. It is used primarily as projectiles in shotguns. If you don't know what "SHOT" is, don't post! (12 ga holds more "SHOT" than a 20ga.)

[jim96sc2]

Assuming you can get ammo in equal availibilities: 20g, you can carry more. But since the world isn't always fair, get the 12.

[Victor Clark]

Since I'm a small guy, I'll try to get a 20 gauge if I can. Although from my experience with shotguns, the more affective and lethal shots would have to be made from a closer range to a zombie, which could be a dangerous position to be in; however, powerful guns are still good and close to my heart, so I'll probably have a shotgun by my side when the dead rise.

[Augustus Desius]

I'm gonna have to go with the 20 gauge, as I don't have any experience with shotguns and I imagine the recoil is a bit much for me as of now. I'll just have to hope for better.

The extra weight would likely not be worth it, as I imagine they both have fairly equal destructive potential when aimed at the head. In terms of anti-human, 12's would likely be better as they may be wearing bullet proof vests, and the extra energy will be enough to knock them back and maybe out.

I don't know anything about their availability.

I would either like a pump or lever action, as I think their operation is simple and safe. Also, auto anythings tend to lock up at the worst time.

I shouldn't own one, but someone who knows how to use one effectively should acquire one as a back up or anti-human weapon (in case of raids and such). I'll stick to handguns and mid-range rifles.

[Cortexx]

1. What is your opinion on “12 gauge vs. 20 gauge”?
2. Is the extra shot of the 12 gauge worth the weight?
3. Is the availability of a 12 gauge better than a 20?
4. Can you do the same damage with a 12 gauge or a 20?
5. Autoloader vs. Pump vs. Twin Barrels vs. Single Shot?
6. Should you have a scattergun at all?

1. 12 gauge.
2. I dont think the weight is to bad so I would still stick with the extra shot.
3. I live in the sticks and and you can get ANY ammo here even in the ONLY gas station we have lol.
4. I'm going for the head shot so I dont care about damange, I wont be trying to slow a Zombie down buy blowing its leg off.
5. Guess all I can say is Twin and Single would be a no go I would take eather or for the Auto or Pump.
6. In the end I would not want a scattergun i'm not a big fan of them anyway but if you use a scatter shot you will always miss with at least one and may kill a humen.:evil:

[Jimmy]

I believe that a shotgun would be a very valuble weapon/tool to have in the event that an outbreak occured. It could be used to blow locks off doors, used as a blunt instrument to break things open, it could easily dispatch zombies, work as a great hunting weapon, aswell as a great personal protection weapon against looters/scavengers who may want to hurt you for your gear.

I would say a Remington 870 marine model that is fully waterproof and has a 8shot tube would be the best model to have. I have a Pistol grip Persuader model and my duty shotgun which is a Remington 870 tactical. I prefer the pistol grip because it's much easier to handle. (Even though firing slugs with it almost breaks your wrist. lol)

I don't think 20 gauge shells are very widely available. I know most stores including Walmart carry 12 ga. shells. =p

[zephyr]

12ga vs 20 gauge, each has the advantages and disadvantages.

The most obvious is the difference in availability of ammo. At any decent gun store you'll be able to buy any type of the regular shells for 12 gauge, whereas the selection for 20 gauge at most stores is even more limited than that of the 28 ga, .410 and 10 gauge shells. For example, most gun stores (with 15 miles, that's like 9 stores), they carry the following 12 gauge:
2.75" #9-#1 shot, buckshot (various)
3" slug
3.5" shells (didn't see what loads)
But for 20 gauge, the selection is really limited, its either 2.75" #7.5 shot, #6 shot, or #4 shot. Even online the selection is poor at best. Slugs are almost non-existent, and 00 buck is pretty hard to find at a reasonable price.

In cost, if you buy bulk from a discount store such as walmart, the 12 gauge beats 20 gauge by about 0.5-1.5 cents less per shell. And for the guns, there's not a big difference there either.

In terms of performance, the 12 gauge is superior to that of the 20 gauge, since it carries more shot and heavier slugs. You also have your choice (in some areas) of alternative shells, that 20 gauge doesn't offer. You could chose to use beanbag in place of 00 buck, or flechettes in place of something else.

But I still prefer 20 over 12 despite its major disadvantages- poor choice of ammo, lack of availability, less power. What I can do with a 20 that I can't do with a 12 is that I can shoot all day with it and not suffer the next day. 2.75" 12 gauge slugs, its not fun to shoot. Nor is it painless or comfortable. I haven't tried 3.5" slug, and I don't intend to. I heard that can dislocate a shoulder easily.

And in my opinion of a scatter gun, its important to have at least one, what ever the situation. Its nearly unbeatable in close range work, excellent in CQB or clearing rooms. The shotgun will not only defend yourself and your family, but also put all sorts of food on your table than any one rifle or pistol caliber can. If you can, a semi auto Saiga in 12 or 20 is an excellent addition to any one's arsenal. If you live in a state like Kaliforniastan (California), a pump action is better than a semi auto.

In terms of firepower, nothing can quite beat a 12 gauge double barrel with 00 buck. I heard the recoil of a 18" barrel can be very harsh, but in firepower it almost unmatchable. for 12 gauge, any action is great. The 20 gauge, its best to stick to pump or semi-auto. In combat, the difference between the two really stands out.

[DevilsRain]

zepher, nice post

I went to a guns store last weekend to buy some 20 gauge ammunition for my Remington 870 Youth. I don’t know what you people are talking about when it comes to availability of different shot sizes. I bought 6 boxes of “3 buck”, “2 buck”, & “1 buck”. Then I bought 3 boxes of sluggers and 1 box of #4 shot for less than $100 dollars. I am living on a budged or else I could have bought more, the store had plenty!

I will go back again on payday and repeat this purchase because I am not going to wait till the last minute to be ready. Unlike most of you!

[mattifikation]

Why not go for something in between and get a 16 gauge?

[Hitman]

Why not go for something in between and get a 16 gauge?

very poor selection of ammo at most places for the 16. most of its birdshot.if I was going non standard I'd pick 10ga. the 3 1/2" mags are impressive loaded with 00 buck.

as for the 20 ga. #4 buck is smaller than I want. 00 or 000 buck is what I have a shotgun for. the slugs are nice and I have quite a few (along with lots of #3 buck for my 20 ga) but they take away from what the shot gun is about. I also try to keep 300rds + of 00 12ga buck on hand at all times, 50 rds or so being reduced recoil. I might need to reorder some more come to think of it.

[Devilspaintbrush]

20 gauge is pretty efficient, it has 3/4 the payload for 1/2 the recoil. availability is the biggest issue, next time you go to wally world check for 20 gauge ammo.

20's work well for smaller people and people with slighter builds.

I cant argue with this at all

I tend to prefer a 12guage but that is what i have the most of handy so I really isnt worried

20's Ohh

2 3/4 vs 3"?? same thing on tissue so give yourself another round using 2 3/4"

D

[Longrifle]

I have to agree with others, 20 gauges can do 95% of what a 12 gauge can do. If you take away the weight maybe to 20 gauge is better. If you do reloading a 20 ga. uses far less shot and powder and that can go a long way in a survival situation. Besides as others said, the recoil is so much lighter and will allow the shooter to keep shooting. 12’s & 10’s are brutal on the body!

[Evil Pug]

12 gauge = men
20 gauge = women
410 bore = kids

The whole family can now hunt for zeds. :lol:

[DevilsRain]

12 gauge = men
20 gauge = women
410 bore = kids

The whole family can now hunt for zeds. :lol:

I can’t believe you made such a sexist statement. Thoughts like this is proof positive you don’t know how to us a shotgun and you brain is already zombiefied.

[JakAttak]

lets not get into a battle of the sexes here m'kay. overall if I had to get a shotgun ( I'm more of a sniper) I'd go with 410 bore minimal kick minimal weight and you won't splatter you're teammates with zombie gore.

[Iron Knuckles]

I'm not sure where I fit in here. If it comes down to ZPAW most likely I'll be carrying my whipit NEF break action shotgun. It has a 10" barrel and a knob pistol grip. Before anyone gets out of hand, legally to build one of these bad boys you need to contact the ATF and do a little AOW paperwork. I have shot both buck shot and slugs through it single handed while accuracy may not be there, its not going to be my first choice. I'll mainly use it to open doors or get through locks. Its a 12 gauge just for ammo availability.

[detpat]

It doesn't really matter, if all you have is a shottie, then use it, otherwise you need to go with a rifle. the shotgun is a poor zed weapon for all the reasons we've already covered. It's just a non starter in this arena.

410..............totally worthless, don't bother

[bandits1]

It doesn't really matter, if all you have is a shottie, then use it, otherwise you need to go with a rifle. the shotgun is a poor zed weapon for all the reasons we've already covered. It's just a non starter in this arena.

410..............totally worthless, don't bother
I don't know too much about shotguns. Are you saying that if someone shot at your head with a .410 inside of 15', that your skull would remain intact?

If you put ammo avaliability aside, the best choice would seem to be the lightest load that can do the job(destroying brains) reliably and consistantly. No need to blow the zombies' brains into a million pieces when blowing it into five will do. And smaller, lighter rounds = ability to carry more rounds.

[detpat]

It's possible, depends on the ammo, I've investigated GSW's where individuals survived #6 shot to the head, Didn't do them much good, but not fatal. GSW's are pretty dynamic and unpredictable. Besides, we aren't discussing what has the bare possibility of doing the job, but what will reliable do said job.

.410 isn't it

[Hitman]

most .410 loads are for birds and small game. the buckshot loads have like 3 pellets and if your planning on using slugs , you should be using a rifle.

[detpat]

You got it bro!

[JakAttak]

well I've said before I'm not a shotgun man but it would help to try different shotties before Z day. you could practice on 2x4 boards. If it goes through that it should take a Z out efficiently.

[Hitman]

well I've said before I'm not a shotgun man but it would help to try different shotties before Z day. you could practice on 2x4 boards. If it goes through that it should take a Z out efficiently.

this kind of stuff was discussed at length before the lockdown. we never could settle on an inexpensive , repeatable , authentic test media . coconuts filled with jello were used and some complained , pig heads were also used (though around here there not cheap or very plentiful) . I've used deer heads and I'm not sure how close that is to a human skull . I was also thinking along the lines of a 2x4 with a ballon filled with jello behind it but how close is a 2x4 pine board to a human skull. one other idea I had was a plaster bowl with a jellow filled ballon in it , then again how close would that really be.?

I do know that a blast from a 20ga with full choke will not go through a 2x10 at around 15 feet on the first shot . it was a #7 shot upland field load. around 10 shots plus 20 or so shots from a .22 cut the board in half though. the .22lr went through it like it was butter.

[Faran Brigo]

Or you can just do the math. You just need the data for the density of human bone, KE of the proyectile, the thickness of the forehead, and the formula for proyectile energy loss. That should give you a reliable theoretical estimate without the need to spend money.

[Hitman]

that doesn't take into account the curved surface and the chance of ricochet . the search for a goot test media was for an inexpensive one. I shoot alot any way so that part of the cost is nothing. plus shooting things is fun.

[Faran Brigo]

Factor them in. There's already a formula for the curved surface, though you'll have to adapt it because the original one is applied to tank armor slope (Can't remember where I saw it), the chance of ricochet, I'm not so sure. There might be statistical data but I think it's acceptable to assume it follows a Gaussian distribution. It's probably not THAT accurate, but it's a practical representation.

[bandits1]

I don't need conclusive, ballistic data. All I need to hear is one of you shot at something round and hard(like a coconut) with whatever-gauge-gun with whatever-size-buckshot at whatever-range, and that you blew it into many pieces 10-out-of-10 times.

That really would be enough info for me to trust a shotgun as a close-quarters weapon in the case of a zombie-outbreak.

[Hitman]

all I really want to know is whats the smallest shot that will cause severe damage to a zombie brain . the ranges its effective and also some of the more unconventional rounds , such as flechettes , improvised slugs (clipping the shell) , etc.

[detpat]

most improvised munitions for a shotgun don't work for shit. avoid them. Stick with buckshot of most any size. Hell, most of the time any shot shell will work at very close range, just not reliably.

I AM a shotgun guy and i would not choose a shotgun for zeds. just too many factors against them for this application. Of course all bets are off if it's the only weapon you have access to, in that case you gotta go with what you have and maximize it.

[JakAttak]

I've heard horror tales from flechette shotguns.

[zRxz]

1. Both are capable of putting down a human being.
2. This certainly depends on what sort of 'zombie' we're dealing with. Those that can be put down by body shot, yes. Those that require mashing of the brain, no.
3. Much.
4. 12 gauge is obviously the most potent of the two.
5. Pump action. I own a Remington 870 with a Surefire G2 attached via Mesa Tactical magazine clamp, VTAC sling, and a Knoxx Spec-Ops stock. Might even get you boys a few shots of her.
6. Refer to 5.
A lot of you kiddies really have to stop fantasizing and start preparing. It's fun to talk about this stuff, but so much more so when you have your shit laid out at your feet.

[JakAttak]

how in the hell are we fantasizing this is logical because 12 ga. may be more powerful 20 ga. is smaller and lighter, something that would be important in any zombie scenario.

[detpat]

flechettes are inaccurate and lack kinetic energy. Shotguns aren't a good zombie weapon. beats a pool cue though.

[zRxz]

Fantasizing and not preparing.
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/xsubucnix/DSCN0549.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/xsubucnix/DSCN0515.jpg
I need to get newer pictures of the scatter gun.

[JakAttak]

what's with the handguns?

[Hitman]

flechettes are inaccurate and lack kinetic energy. Shotguns aren't a good zombie weapon. beats a pool cue though.

what I want to know is weather they will penetrate a skull and at what range . also what kind of improvised rounds will work. like if you found a box of #8 birdshot and thats all you had , could they be made usefull . like what if you clipped the shell , or dumped out the shot and replaced it with short finishing nails , or poured glue into the shot to get it to act more like a frangable slug .

[detpat]

In my experience examining improvised weapons, most things people do to shotgun shells just screw them up and deaden the charges. Any shotgun shell has the potential to penetrate a skull at very close range.

That said, things like small shot size won't reliably do so at almost any range. I wouldn't want my life to depend on birdshot. Somewhere i have an old investigations text that has good photos of GSW's including shotgun wounds to the head. I'm guessing that these aren't gonna be suitable for posting here, but they do show the sort of effect they have on live persons in dynamic, real life situations.

Flechette's aren't reliable because they don't fly straight like you would expect. They are usually all over the place and often strike sideways or "keyhole". Again i wouldn't want my life to depend on them.

[detpat]

double tap, whoops

[Hitman]

I know birdshot is useless against zombies. it could prove usefull to know if it could be made into something usefull though.

[JakAttak]

Dick Cheney could birdshot he's been practicing with his friends face

[Evil Pug]

I can’t believe you made such a sexist statement. Thoughts like this is proof positive you don’t know how to us a shotgun and you brain is already zombiefied.

Is someone having a " visit " from their friend ? Be careful , zombies can smell blood! At 4' 11" and 95 lbs I don't think you could last very long using a 410, let alone a 20 gauge. But we men can always use someone to cook for us.:evil:

[Faran Brigo]

I know she took it too seriously and you're just trying to push her buttons, but that was completely uncalled for. And not particularly wise considering this section's mod is female.

[JakAttak]

Darkness may ban you for that and I hate when she whines at us for getting off topic and less when she whines at one person. (No offense. I wouldn't want your job.)

[Behemoth]

Back on topic, in the 2nd terminator movie, Arnie used a norinco lever action shotty ( i belive it is a copy of an '87 winchester ) whilst riding a motorbike, is this feasible? Would be a very useful tool in 10 or 12 guage for keeping zombies at bay if you have to drive through a group of 'em.

[detpat]

If the world's full of zeds and you're on a bike, you MAY be an idiot. Rifles are the way to go on zed day unless you don't have a choice, then you just need to keep an eye open to trade up.

[Behemoth]

If the world's full of zeds and you're on a bike, you MAY be an idiot. Rifles are the way to go on zed day unless you don't have a choice, then you just need to keep an eye open to trade up.
Err, i'd rather be on my harley then on foot, especially in a city/urban enviroment. Good luck to you, keep shooting yer rifle while i'm zooming away,there may be an idiot waving to you as you get overwhelmed & chomped.

[JakAttak]

you act like we would be nomads moving around constantly so while you run out of gas and die I shall laugh from the safety of my fortress.

[Behemoth]

you act like we would be nomads moving around constantly so while you run out of gas and die I shall laugh from the safety of my fortress.
I think you will be too busy crying from the tear gas the NG shoots at you, once they howitzer the hell out of your fortress. The last thing you will be hearing with your hands cuffed is the sound of 1500cc in the distance.

[Faran Brigo]

Good luck to you, keep shooting yer rifle while i'm zooming away,there may be an idiot waving to you as you get overwhelmed & chomped.

In a motorcycle, a few zombies grabbing you might take you off balance and knock you from it, which will happen if you try to speed across a crowd of them. You can't carry many supplies on a motorcycle, and have you actually tried to fire a gun from a moving one? A hog like Arnie's in particular will not be suited for post-outbreak roads since they're not very maneuverable and they don't have good off-road performance (and with a few months without maintenance there won't be much difference between paved roads and dirt roads in many cases.)

Also...

While you run out of gas and die I shall laugh from the safety of my fortress.

I think you will be too busy crying from the tear gas the NG shoots at you, once they howitzer the hell out of your fortress. The last thing you will be hearing with your hands cuffed is the sound of 1500cc in the distance.

I cast magic missile and kill you both, I gain 250 experience and 50 gold :lol:

Take it down a notch, you're gonna need a place to stay at and a way to first get there, and then to make ocassional foraging trips. You both know that, please quit acting like kids.

[JakAttak]

one second though why would the NG just walk up to my place and start trying to kill me? I think they would be distracted by Z's/ dumbasses firing shotguns off motocycles with no respect for safety.

[Behemoth]

one second though why would the NG just walk up to my place and start trying to kill me? I think they would be distracted by Z's/ dumbasses firing shotguns off motocycles with no respect for safety.
Err, well have a read of what happened during the hurricane katrina, alot of innocent civilians thought the NG were their friends to. Well sucks to be them, they learnt the hard way, so will you.

I cast magic missile and kill you both, I gain 250 experience and 50 gold
:) Good one.

Anyway, back on topic, 20 gauge i feel would be best for use from any moving vehicle, due to less recoil.

[Kolapsky]

But then you have to put in the range of how close you are as well. Because shotguns are meant for close range I'm sure,but I've seen films and games where the shotguns has been the brother or sister of a .50 Sniper Rifle,and that pisses me off.

[Darkness]

Is someone having a " visit " from their friend ? Be careful , zombies can smell blood! At 4' 11" and 95 lbs I don't think you could last very long using a 410, let alone a 20 gauge. But we men can always use someone to cook for us.:evil:

"Evil Pug, Stop it! You know DAMN GOOD AND WELL that gender has NOTHING to do with it. I am all woman, 5'4", and can shoot as well as any guy! Even the big guns!" :naughty:

[Evil Pug]

"Evil Pug, Stop it! You know DAMN GOOD AND WELL that gender has NOTHING to do with it. I am all woman, 5'4", and can shoot as well as any guy! Even the big guns!" :naughty:

Only teasing! :)

But girls with guns is kinda hot! :clap:

[Behemoth]

But then you have to put in the range of how close you are as well. Because shotguns are meant for close range I'm sure,but I've seen films and games where the shotguns has been the brother or sister of a .50 Sniper Rifle,and that pisses me off.
Yep, shotguns are emergency use only, as are motorcycles, my point was if you were on a motorcycle & had to plow through a group of zeds the norinco would be a good choice for making a nice gap.

[detpat]

SOme of the better shooting schools as well as the army now offer courses of instruction in shooting from moving vehicles. It's much more difficult to hit anything from a vehicle in motion and you aren't gonna be able to do it just because you want to.

Remember that you don't rise to the occasion, in a shooting incident, you default to your level of training!

[JakAttak]

"Evil Pug, Stop it! You know DAMN GOOD AND WELL that gender has NOTHING to do with it. I am all woman, 5'4", and can shoot as well as any guy! Even the big guns!" :naughty:
toldja.

yeah shooting from vehicles especially a motorcycle is probably a lot harder than it looks in the Matrix.

[detpat]

hitting from a moving motorcycle is almost impossible!

[Evil Pug]

We been hitting targets (humans) from the backs of running horses for thousands of years. Shooting a zed from a moving Harley should'nt be that hard.:lol:

[detpat]

WE? when did you start this? don't your local police object?:evil:

You need to remember that the people you speak of were trained from childhood and still miss more often than not. If you think i lie then go try it and let us know how that works out for you.

[Dave Of The Dead]

When was the last time you hopped on a chariot and conquered someplace?

Didn't the Germans use motorcycles with side-cars to gun from in WWII? Its not practical in the least bit, but Its been done.

The best thing about a shotgun is the variety in ammo. Yes, to use buckshot, you will have to be fairly close for comfort and the further you are from the target, a lesser chance of a kill shot. BUT! There are also solid slug cartridges that will give the shotgun a much longer killing range without the said problems of the dispersal rounds.

[Faran Brigo]

Which are scarce and essentially turn a shotgun into a rifle, so why use the shotgun in the first place?

[detpat]

those motorcycles were mostly for recon, and where usually stopped for any attempt at accurate fire.

[Dave Of The Dead]

Which are scarce and essentially turn a shotgun into a rifle, so why use the shotgun in the first place?

versatility? I mean, you can't really turn a rifle into a scattergun, correct?

[detpat]

while i love my shotguns and have wayyyy too many of them, i will say that the versatility of shotties in a situation like we envision is overrated.

[bandits1]

Which are scarce and essentially turn a shotgun into a rifle, so why use the shotgun in the first place?
I guess the option of firing slugs is good to have if your only weapon is a shotgun.

[mattifikation]

When you guys talk about "carrying ammo" I can't help but wonder, where exactly are you planning on carrying it to?

If you were trying to defend a stationary spot, let's say an ordinary house for the sake of an example, then a shotgun would do the trick just fine. Just make sure there's ammo ready for you to grab and use, placed in strategic positions around the house, and the problem of "not being able to carry enough ammo" goes away.

If you need to "bug out" or abandon your stronghold at any point, then I'd still say take your shotgun with you because eventually you're gonna settle down in one spot again, and when you do, the shotgun will work wonders for eliminating any zombie threat that makes it indoors.

Imagine zombies trying to get to you when you're on the second floor of some house out in the country, and you're at the top of the only flight of stairs, with a full case of ammo sitting right next to you, and you're raining buckshot down on the idiot zombies trying to climb the stairs to get to you.

Piece of cake.

[Onslaught]

When you guys talk about "carrying ammo" I can't help but wonder, where exactly are you planning on carrying it to?

If you were trying to defend a stationary spot, let's say an ordinary house for the sake of an example, then a shotgun would do the trick just fine. Just make sure there's ammo ready for you to grab and use, placed in strategic positions around the house, and the problem of "not being able to carry enough ammo" goes away.

If you need to "bug out" or abandon your stronghold at any point, then I'd still say take your shotgun with you because eventually you're gonna settle down in one spot again, and when you do, the shotgun will work wonders for eliminating any zombie threat that makes it indoors.

Imagine zombies trying to get to you when you're on the second floor of some house out in the country, and you're at the top of the only flight of stairs, with a full case of ammo sitting right next to you, and you're raining buckshot down on the idiot zombies trying to climb the stairs to get to you.

Piece of cake.

i agree that the shotgun 20 or 12 should be used primarilty in a static defense role. i figure it'll live in the truck.
don't forget that there are other drawbacks to the venerable shotgun.
mainly that it's capacity is limited (usually 5 rounds or less in the most common autos/pumps)
and that while it does have a tubular magazine, it must still be loaded one shell at a time.

by comparison, i can load up 30 rounds of zombie splattering 7.62x39 with one magazine in my rifle.

but this is all off topic, i'm sure there is a "shotgun critique" thread somewhere else.

i have never had any problem with the 20ga. i'd definitely prefer to shoot my silver mallard 20 than my rem 1100 12. for one thing the 12ga weighs about twice as much as the 20ga, and that's just the unloaded gun. i love the old cannon, but that remington has been a real bear to lug around on long hikes.

20 should be just fine as long as you don't ask too much of it.
it must be understood that a shotgun is only as good as the shot being fired. if you've got birdshot you'll prettymuch have to make point blank contact shots to rekill reliably. anything else and you'll just remove the flesh from the skull, not exactly pretty. if you've got 1 or higher (lower?) buckshot you should be able to deanimate* from across a livingroom. slugs can reach out and touch, but at that point, why not use a rifle? it'll be more accurate as it was actually designed to shoot solid projectiles long distances. and regardless, you'll still have to aim. the distances required for buckshot to be lethal against zombies also means that your pattern will be relatively small. buckshot across a room may only pattern to about the size of a baseball or possibly a softball, still not much room for error.

since you won't be looking for multiple hits due to spread, i'd say go with the 20. it's lighter, recoils less, and the rounds are smaller/lighter. it'll also come in hady for bird hunting.

*<<--- can't believe i just typed "deanimated". i feel like such a mall ninja.:puke:

[JakAttak]

slugs are stupid why not use a rifle?

[Faran Brigo]

If you were trying to defend a stationary spot, let's say an ordinary house for the sake of an example, then a shotgun would do the trick just fine. Just make sure there's ammo ready for you to grab and use, placed in strategic positions around the house, and the problem of "not being able to carry enough ammo" goes away.

Alright, what weapon would not be aceptable for static defense of a place where you don't have to leave, hold the high ground and the zombies can't reach you?

[bandits1]

slugs are stupid why not use a rifle?
Because this thread is about shotguns. It's not a "shotguns vs. rifles" thread.

[mattifikation]

A flamethrower.

[Faran Brigo]

Provided your defenses aren't flammable a flamethrower would be vastly superior to any shotgun or rifle.

[detpat]

I would be leery of using a flamethrower, particularly in a defensive situation. You may have nonflammable defenses but your neighbors may not, this could lead to your whole neighborhood burning down. running from an out of control fire is gonna be pretty crummy with a zed hanging on to your leg!

[Faran Brigo]

If the fire's at the neighbor's, why would I be running?

[detpat]

if your neighbor's on fire, and the zeds have eaten the fire dept., then it stand to reason you are gonna probably burn too.

[BenAli]

I agree that a shotgun should not be a primary weapon when the dead rises. What I haven’t read is the shotgun is more important than the gauge. 12 or 20 the shotgun MUST be able to chamber the 3 inch shells. Your shotgun also should also be a pump model, there are other good actions but a pump is the best. What shotgun to choose? There is none better than the Remington 870. Yes, there are other good to great shotguns out there and many people will claim the gun they own is the best. This is only true if you own an 870.

Now to answer the questions on page 1:
12 is better than 20
Yes, the extra shot is worth the weight
12 and 20 are almost equal but the 12 has a better selection of shells and it is the gauge law and military units use.
12 does more damage
Like I said “PUMP” is the only way to go
Yes, a shotgun is a good secondary weapon (Rifle/Carbine, Shotgun, & Pistol) or it should be integrated into a fire team.

[JakAttak]

how is 20 worse? we are just looking to pierce the skull at reasonable range.

[bandits1]

I don't see how the 12 gauge having a larger selection of ammo is an advantage. All you need to do is find the one load that will reliably penetrate a zombies' skull - then grab a million rounds of that same load, right? You wouldn't need 6 different types of loads because the zombies are always the same.

[Faran Brigo]

It's an advantage because any load of the same round will do, and you have more flexibility. Shotguns can be used as breaching guns, rifles can't.

Detpat: If the defenses holding the zombies aren't flammable, how would they catch fire again?

[detpat]

my point is that if you set a town on fire it's all gonna burn. if you are in the town you are gonna burn too.

[BenAli]

Shotguns aren’t just for killing Zombies. Like others mentioned there is door breaching. There is also, man/woman killing against the living (looters & gang bangers), hunting for fresh game (Meat), taking of winged prey (poultry), and like was said before head busting ghouls.

BTW, where are you going to “grab a million rounds of that same load” from? I am reasonably sure if you don’t have your ammunition before the dead rises you definitely won’t at all afterwards.

Do you know how heavy shotgun ammunition is? 100 shells of Federal 2 ¾ inch 12 Gauge + 3 Drams + 1 1/8 oz Shot + 7 ½ Shot = just over 9 pounds. While 100 shells of Federal 2 ¾ inch 20 Gauge + 2 ½ Drams + 7/8 oz Shot + 7 ½ Shot + just over 8 pounds. Unless you get angry and turn green you won’t be able to carry or loot very many shells.

I think this is where the question about the “extra weight” comes in. 1 pound of the same Federal 20 gauge = 13 shells EXTRA over the 12 gauge.

You would need a wide range of shells for you shotgun because that type of weapon is versatile and can and will be used for more than Zombies alone (as mentioned above). There is a BOX, now is the time to “think outside of the box” and be innovative and creative.

Fire and Zombies – This is not the section to talk about this subject. I will say take a fire science class and learn about “Radiant Heat” and “Structural Integrity” of non-flammable materials. You are wrong!

[Behemoth]

I have never used a flamethrower, i have however seen films of when they were used in combat in a built up area, when the german army in the 2nd world war was clearing out warsaw after the uprising, they used flamethrowers, now to my knowledge house bricks are not flamable, yet they were on fire after being flamed, so whether your defences were flamable or not they would still be alight.
I have also noticed that flamethrowers are used when the operator is in the open, i would assume this is due to the unsafe nature of using a flamethrower when in a pillbox etc. So a shotgun of any guage is of more use than a flamethrower, as in the event of a zombie outbreak, i doubt if you will be venturing out much.
There is also the issue of the weight of the tanks on your back, but i believe there is no argument over which weapon to take in the event of an outbreak.

[Faran Brigo]

my point is that if you set a town on fire it's all gonna burn. if you are in the town you are gonna burn too.

True, I suppose if the area around is sorrounded by flammable materials it would be rather hard for the building not to catch fire, even if the outsides of it aren't flammable. A flamethrower wouldn't make a good defensive weapon unless it was combined with defensive earthworks.

[Screwballgunnut]

I have never used a flamethrower, i have however seen films of when they were used in combat in a built up area, when the german army in the 2nd world war was clearing out warsaw after the uprising, they used flamethrowers, now to my knowledge house bricks are not flamable, yet they were on fire after being flamed, so whether your defences were flamable or not they would still be alight.
I have also noticed that flamethrowers are used when the operator is in the open, i would assume this is due to the unsafe nature of using a flamethrower when in a pillbox etc. So a shotgun of any guage is of more use than a flamethrower, as in the event of a zombie outbreak, i doubt if you will be venturing out much.
There is also the issue of the weight of the tanks on your back, but i believe there is no argument over which weapon to take in the event of an outbreak.

IIRC, flame throwers weigh in from 70-120lbs depending on how big the tanks are. The bricks (anything else doused with the flame thrower) were burning because flame throwers basically shoot pressurized fuel oil or a napalm mix & ignite it as the fuel oil/napalm leaves the nozzle. The drawback to them is the amount of time you can actually "burn" is only a couple of minutes

[Behemoth]

IIRC, flame throwers weigh in from 70-120lbs depending on how big the tanks are. The bricks (anything else doused with the flame thrower) were burning because flame throwers basically shoot pressurized fuel oil or a napalm mix & ignite it as the fuel oil/napalm leaves the nozzle. The drawback to them is the amount of time you can actually "burn" is only a couple of minutes

So they are not safe for use if you are inside an enclosed space, is this correct?

[detpat]

NO, the flames will consume all the available oxygen in the enclosed space. You could also get burned too.

[JakAttak]

and in a brick building It would be like being in an oven

[Darkness]

"We HAVE a thread about Fire and Zombies. Please keep to shotguns in this one." :naughty:

[JakAttak]

right shotguns... uuuummmmmmm... take it away someone who knows something about shotguns.

[mattifikation]

I wouldn't mind having one of those Saiga 12 gauge shotguns, the ones based on the AK-47 design. Or a street sweeper.

[Darkness]

"Here's a link for you, to where you can talk about Fire all you want." :)

http://www.allthingszombie.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16169





"You know, you could avoid these little mistakes, simply by viewing this thread, and using your imagination." ;-)

http://www.allthingszombie.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15744


"Now back to Shot Guns......."


"I was wondering, is a Punt Gun considered a Shot Gun?" :think:

[detpat]

i have a saiga 12 and only paid $255 for it. try that now!

[mattifikation]

Oh man, I would definitely be in financial trouble if I saw one for that price around here. Wait, I'm already in financial trouble.. haha.

So how do you think it would fair as a zed zapper?

[detpat]

better than most shotguns, but not as well as a good rifle with a high capacity magazine. thirty and then another thirty, ad nauseum beats 10 then another ten, etc.

[Trebek]

I'd definitely have to say that if I had to chose one or the other, I'd go 12. The recoil isn't all that bad if you hold it right, and you can usually get off quite a few rounds quickly.
I'd say the additional shot is an advantage. Anyone ever see the spread from some 00 buck at 25 yards? It's not exactly what you call a tight group, so if you absolutely had to hit something quickly, you'd want the extra pellet or two for help.

(Insert obligatory rifles are better comment here)

[detpat]

personally I'm a 12 guy, I'm pretty big and have lots of experience with 12's, not to mention how many i own. i remember the first time i saw the wild bunch and asked my dad i if i could have his 1897 and 1911 when he didn't want them any more. aaaahhhhh the good old days.

[Firedude]

I didn't read all of the responses to this thread, but I'm pretty sure I'm agreeing with quite a few people. My apologies if I am just regurgitating someone else’s response.

12 ga for me.

More common.
Easier to find ammo. Just about all LEO vehicles have them and that would be another source to pillage while you were on the move.
I have 2 Benelli M1 Super 90's semi-auto 12 ga shotguns. One for hunting, the other set-up for personal defense (18.5 barrel, iron sights, extended mag tube). I have never had a malfunction with either and wouldn't hesitate to carry one into any deadly situation (if I couldn't have a rifle). But, you can't beat a good 870.
The ammo weight/size difference wouldn't be much of a factor for me.
Defiantly would not go with a double or a single shot if I had other options available.

[JakAttak]

What's the penetrative abilities of a 20 though?

[Tripoli]

What's the penetrative abilities of a 20 though?

They penatrate the same... equal velocities, equal penatration, just a little less shot is all.

[Hitman]

generaly its a smaller shot size as well. most buckshot loads for 20ga are #3 the 12ga is gereraly 00 or 000 with some #4 thrown in

Shot Size Pellet Diam Pellet Diam Number Of
AM/STD (Inches) (Millimeter) Pellets/Oz

000 Buck 0.3600 9.1440 6
00 Buck 0.3300 8.3820 8
0 Buck 0.3200 8.1280 9
1 Buck 0.3000 7.6200 11
2 Buck 0.2700 6.8580 15
3 Buck 0.2500 6.3500 19
4 Buck 0.2400 6.0960 21
F 0.2200 5.5880 40
T 0.2000 5.0800 53
BBB 0.1900 4.8260 61
BB 0.1800 4.5720 72
1 0.1600 4.0640 90
2 0.1480 3.7592 103
4 0.1290 3.2766 135
5 0.1200 3.0480 170
6 0.1090 2.7686 225
7.5 0.0940 2.3876 350
8 0.0890 2.2606 410
8.5 0.0850 2.1590 470
9 0.0790 2.0066 585
12 0.0500 1.2700 2300

http://www.ammobank.com/shotsize.html

[Trumble0]

12 Gauge, having fired various gauges, 10, 12, 16, 20 I can say the 12 certainly packs quite a whallop especially if you get an 870 or the new Benelli supernova, or basically any shotgun that can chamber the BIG Magnum shells. 12 gauge is also the most commonly availible ammo in my area. but... I would be interested if someone developed a 10 gauge pump action shotgun that gained acceptance, as I have only seen them in O/U guns. My 870 will load a 3" shell, I'm hoping to mod it out as a home defense gun soon. 00 buckshot or a slug would suffice in easily taking down a human sized target with relative ease. anything above 00 buck is overkill. with the wide range of Mag extensions that allow you to load up to 10 shells I think everyone would benefit from getting ahold of one during the Zombie-pocalypse.

[Tripoli]

I like the 12 gauge too. I have other scatterguns in different gauges but 12 and 20 you can’t go wrong. Although I have a few autos (semi) I prefer the pump with an extended tube for extra shells. But the weapons, combined with the ammunition, are a heavy load when there are masses of undead hunting you.

[Zompocalypse]

12 versus 20 gauge is a great question. I will accentually call them even as far as penetration. I will give a nod to the 20 gauge for the weight. 12 gauge takes it on availability and variety of shells. There are plenty of shotgun that chamber these shell so I’ll call it a tie for the gun. All in all, about dead even if a person has planned a head and has cached plenty of shells.

I don’t think the extra weight will make much of a difference. 20 versus 12 you are talking about 10 shells difference when you are toting 100 shells.

Yes, 12 gauge shells are more available than 20.

I’m a pump or a double man! Don’t care for autos and the other choices out there.

Yes, you should have a shotgun. Rifle or Carbine, Shotgun, & Pistol (in that order).

Too many people watch movies and think they can shoot……….. I leave that alone… I am not here to start a fight.

[Creeping Death]

Probably the .12 gauge.
More ammo is essential.

[Darkness]

"I asked this question earlier, but still haven't gotten an answer." ;-)

"I was wondering, is a Punt Gun considered a Shot Gun?" :think:

"I saw one in the last Tremors Movie, and looked it up, but couldn't find much in depth information. Anyone know anything about these besides that they are used for hunting ducks in flocks?"

[DBCooper]

"I asked this question earlier, but still haven't gotten an answer." ;-)

"I was wondering, is a Punt Gun considered a Shot Gun?" :think:

"I saw one in the last Tremors Movie, and looked it up, but couldn't find much in depth information. Anyone know anything about these besides that they are used for hunting ducks in flocks?"

Yes a "Punt gun" is a shotgun... see the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun

[Darkness]

"Thank you." :)

"Next question....."

"Would these be useful, used cannon style, against an on coming mob of Zombies?" :think:

[DBCooper]

No, I wouldn’t suggest it.

I would say too little return on your investment. 1 1\2 pounds of shot and 3\4 pound powder (maybe more) and no guarantee of a head shot.

It would be good for raiders, similar to a claymore mine.

[Gummerfan]

"Would these be useful, used cannon style, against an on coming mob of Zombies?" :think:
Sure! (once!) :)
The big punt guns like in Tremors 4 were muzzle loaders, so you're talking about sllloooowww reload time.
There are other varieties of punt guns that use shot shells (like .10 or maybe even .8 gauge), but they're more like big shotguns than small cannons. They're usually mounted on a boat ( called a "punt") rather than shoulder-fired like in the movie.
(But that thing was impressive-looking, wasn't it?) I'd like to have one just for that.:evil:

[Darkness]

No, I wouldn’t suggest it.

I would say too little return on your investment. 1 1\2 pounds of shot and 3\4 pound powder (maybe more) and no guarantee of a head shot.

It would be good for raiders, similar to a claymore mine.

"I was thinking more along the lines of, mounted to an outer fortress wall, to be shot in to a mob of zombies. Not nessessarily to 'kill' them, but to slow some or more down. Helping the shooters get better shots. That kind of thing." :think:

[DBCooper]

I still think not…. Build a traditional claymore coffee can you’ll get better results. IMHO

[OVERKILL]

I have to disagree with the claymore statement, I think that under certain circumstances the punt gun would be more effective, given its ability to to be easily aimed at the largest concentration of zombies. I agree with Darkness that injured zombies may be easier to clean up, I assume that crawling zombies would be slower than walking zombies and hits to the spine, pelvis or major leg bones would turn walkers to crawlers. As to the original question.

1. What is your opinion on “12 gauge vs. 20 gauge”?
Why not have both
2. Is the extra shot of the 12 gauge worth the weight?
With buckshot, yes. To compare apples to apples, a 20 GA 2 3/4" with #4 Buck nominally has 15 pellets. A 12 GA 2 3/4" with #4 buck will normally contain 27 pellets, if I did the formula right on my calculator, that's an 80% increase which would give much better pattern density. With slugs I would think it made little difference, as the 12 would have more energy, but the 20 would be more than sufficient.
3. Is the availability of a 12 gauge better than a 20?
It does seem to me that there is more 12 gauge on the shelves in a larger variety than the 20 gauge, but the margin is small.
4. Can you do the same damage with a 12 gauge or a 20?
No. The 12 GA either A) uses more shot or B) uses heavier slugs, this equals more energy transferred into the target, however, I feel the 20 guage is more than sufficient.
5. Autoloader vs. Pump vs. Twin Barrels vs. Single Shot?
I dislike semi autos in general due to the fact that fouling of gas ports or the action can lead to stoppages, although the newer crop of autoloaders are more reliable. I tend to dislike double barrels due to extra steel used fir the second barrel and and the rib between the barrels basically equates to carrying 2 single shots. I do like single shots for hunting because the are simple and require little maintainance, and are typicall lighter than any other category. My preference is the pump action, more capacity than a slinle shot, lighter than a double barrel, and more reliable than a semi, so while not perfect, I feel it is the best compromise.
6. Should you have a scattergun at all?
Yes, and with all my talk about the 12 guage having superior firepower, I would choose a 20 GA pump for the undead. Recoil has nothing to do with my decision, and as others have pointed out anyone can fire a 12 gauge so long as they have proper stance, training and techniuqe along with a gun that fits them properly. My reasoning is that not only does ammo wiegh less, but the gun as well, meaning I can carry more total ammo or more supplies. Everone seems to favor the 12 GA, military police and civilian, so I'm banking on the fact that all the 12 GA will be looted or shot up, and 20 ga ammo has a greater chance to be left on the shelves.

[Gummerfan]

Reading through some of these posts, I can't help but comment on the fact that there are so many posts and threads debating the suitability of .22lr as an anti-zed defensive caliber, yet when it comes to shotties so many are "championing" the cause for .12ga 3" (or even 3.5") magnums. Take a cue from the pros and stick with standard 23/4" or even the lower-recoil defense loads. The few extra pellets and negligable gain in velocity isn't worth the trade-off in recoil and recovery time.
I'm a .12ga fan all the way, mainly due to the wider range in ammo availability (particularly among specialty ammo). Supposedly the .20 ga is more accurate with slugs, but IMHO shotguns (even dedicated slug guns) still make lousy rifles. :lol:
I've got a couple of Saiga-12s, but I plan to add a pumpgun sometime. The Saiga's greatest strength is also its greatest weakness, namely its being mag fed. Once your (big, bulky, heavy) mags run dry, you're SOL. But with a tube-fed, you can always top it off.

[DrTom]

this would definitely be the shotgun of choice as far as shotguns go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s13Y7SKrFls

[DBCooper]

Reading through some of these posts, I can't help but comment on the fact that there are so many posts and threads debating the suitability of .22lr as an anti-zed defensive caliber, yet when it comes to shotties so many are "championing" the cause for .12ga 3" (or even 3.5") magnums. Take a cue from the pros and stick with standard 23/4" or even the lower-recoil defense loads. The few extra pellets and negligable gain in velocity isn't worth the trade-off in recoil and recovery time.
I'm a .12ga fan all the way, mainly due to the wider range in ammo availability (particularly among specialty ammo). Supposedly the .20 ga is more accurate with slugs, but IMHO shotguns (even dedicated slug guns) still make lousy rifles. :lol:
I've got a couple of Saiga-12s, but I plan to add a pumpgun sometime. The Saiga's greatest strength is also its greatest weakness, namely its being mag fed. Once your (big, bulky, heavy) mags run dry, you're SOL. But with a tube-fed, you can always top it off.

Gummerfan
As you know, shooting a shotgun (even a 12ga.) with “00 buckshot” you are only sending a .33 caliber (9 – 15 roundballs) down range at velocities equal to or slower than a .22lr. I would say it is a spray and pray approach using a shotty. Or the shooter is hoping to take out more than 1 Zed per shot, or the shooter is a bad shot, or the shotgun is for non-Zeds, or …. Well you see what I am saying.

Keeping this in mind, if only “1” .33 caliber ball hits its target (a zombies skull) will that stop a zombie?

If the answer is yes, then why won’t a .22lr do the job? Kind of makes "steve wonder", doesn’t it?

For the record a .33 caliber round ball weighs about 40 grains. Hmm about the same weight of a .22lr.

[the_velociraptor]

Just wondering, isn't 12-Gauge more available, since cops use it more often, or is it a different gauge they use? Most of the police cars in my area have a shotgun, not sure what make it is.

[Bob]

Cops use whatever shotgun their PD provides generally 12 gauge.
The standard around here is Remington 870 in 12 gauge.

[the_velociraptor]

Yeah, I was about to say "Mossberg", but I wasn't sure if they were Mossbergs.

[Bob]

It's very conceivable that some would use Mossberg or Winchester.

[automaton]

Gummerfan
As you know, shooting a shotgun (even a 12ga.) with “00 buckshot” you are only sending a .33 caliber (9 – 15 roundballs) down range at velocities equal to or slower than a .22lr. I would say it is a spray and pray approach using a shotty. Or the shooter is hoping to take out more than 1 Zed per shot, or the shooter is a bad shot, or the shotgun is for non-Zeds, or …. Well you see what I am saying.

Keeping this in mind, if only “1” .33 caliber ball hits its target (a zombies skull) will that stop a zombie?

If the answer is yes, then why won’t a .22lr do the job? Kind of makes "steve wonder", doesn’t it?

For the record a .33 caliber round ball weighs about 40 grains. Hmm about the same weight of a .22lr.

I wonder why all of you ballistic experts and .22 long rifle haters have chosen to ignore this post. This is the best example of reasoning I have read on the forum in some time. Way to go!:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[Bob]

I am not a proponent of shotguns either.
Low capacity, high recoil, high recovery time.

That being said I am getting geared up to build a couple of tactical shotguns.
I think I am going to do another 870 and a 11-87.
Depends on what kind of core I can find to start with on the 11-87.

[mattifikation]

I wonder why all of you ballistic experts and .22 long rifle haters have chosen to ignore this post. This is the best example of reasoning I have read on the forum in some time. Way to go!:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Nobody paid it any attention because it was a horrible argument, and one better suited for one of the already ongoing discussions on the matter. But since people are going to harp on about it, I'll just state the obvious.

.33 > .22

And at the ranges where a shotgun is going to be effective, you're talking several of those pellets hitting the target. If only one pellet hits, it's going to be because you missed or because you were too far away.

Also, most people have said that a 12 gauge is not a good weapon... which idiotifies the original point completely.

[DBCooper]

Interesting Matt,
So you don’t understand the basic of ballistics. Let me help you here.

If you have a smaller profile projectile (.22 bullet), weighing the same as a larger profile projectile (.33 diameter) and they are moving at the same velocity (speed) then the smaller projectile will impact (crash) into its target (the zombies skull) at MORE PSI (pounds per square inch) than the fatter projectile will. (Given the same bullet weight) More PSI at impact equals DEEPER penetration (more brain damage). Thus equals DEAD ZOMBIE! Copy that?

[mattifikation]

Okay, okay, you got me. Shooting something with a .22 will deal WAY more damage than shooting it with a 12 gauge. :roll:

[DBCooper]

Okay, okay, you got me. Shooting something with a .22 will deal WAY more damage than shooting it with a 12 gauge. :roll:

LOL. . . my god man. get some help. try reading again, sslllllooooowwwwwer.

Originally Posted by DBCooper
Gummerfan
As you know, shooting a shotgun (even a 12ga.) with “00 buckshot” you are only sending a .33 caliber (9 – 15 roundballs) down range at velocities equal to or slower than a .22lr. I would say it is a spray and pray approach using a shotty. Or the shooter is hoping to take out more than 1 Zed per shot, or the shooter is a bad shot, or the shotgun is for non-Zeds, or …. Well you see what I am saying.

Keeping this in mind, if only “1” .33 caliber ball hits its target (a zombies skull) will that stop a zombie?

If the answer is yes, then why won’t a .22lr do the job? Kind of makes "steve wonder", doesn’t it?

For the record a .33 caliber round ball weighs about 40 grains. Hmm about the same weight of a .22lr.

[Gummerfan]

LOL. . . my god man. get some help. try reading again.

Originally Posted by DBCooper
Gummerfan
As you know, shooting a shotgun (even a 12ga.) with “00 buckshot” you are only sending a .33 caliber (9 – 15 roundballs) down range at velocities equal to or slower than a .22lr. I would say it is a spray and pray approach using a shotty. Or the shooter is hoping to take out more than 1 Zed per shot, or the shooter is a bad shot, or the shotgun is for non-Zeds, or …. Well you see what I am saying.

Keeping this in mind, if only “1” .33 caliber ball hits its target (a zombies skull) will that stop a zombie?

If the answer is yes, then why won’t a .22lr do the job? Kind of makes "steve wonder", doesn’t it?

For the record a .33 caliber round ball weighs about 40 grains. Hmm about the same weight of a .22lr.
Actually, I was just waiting for someone else to reply.:)
Ever patterned a shotgun at close range? At typical self-defense ranges, like inside a house, a shotgun (even a cylinder bore) makes ONE big, ragged hole in the target. With modern ammo, the wad won't even open up at that range. So, you DO have to aim. The "wall-o-lead" is a myth. Anyone counting on taking out more than one target per shot needs to rethink their position. Using a shotgun is no more "spray and pray" than rapid-firing off a buttload of rounds from a semi-auto rifle or pistol. If you want to hit your target, you MUST aim for it. (duh!)
So, you AREN'T talking about one pellet hitting a zed head. No, it wouldn't penetrate any better than a .22lr. But 9-15 pellets hitting at once would tear a hole clean through.

[DBCooper]

So, you AREN'T talking about one pellet hitting a zed head. No, it wouldn't penetrate any better than a .22lr. But 9-15 pellets hitting at once would tear a hole clean through.

This I agree. Just like shooting a zombie 9 or 15 times with a .22.

(Keeping this in mind, if only “1” .33 caliber ball hits its target (a zombies skull) will that stop a zombie?)

Pay attention, I said "1" round ball. I also said the .22 would have MORE penetration. It will, trust me.

[Gummerfan]

Pay attention, I said "1" round ball. I also said the .22 would have MORE penetration. It will, trust me.
Uhh...yeah, it would. And that doesn't matter one whit, since there's gonna be a lot more balls hitting the target, tearing a hole through the skull you can see daylight through.
9-15 "00" pellets>1 .22lr bullet, comparing a single pellet to a single bullet from a .22lr as some sort of indictment against the .12gauge is like comparing apples to armpits.

[DBCooper]

I have read many of your post and think you are one of the sharper tools in this shed.

I was making a simple statement about “1” pellet and “1” only hitting its target.

[mattifikation]

But... why on earth would just one pellet hit them? Unless the target was completely out of range, or you missed horribly, there's not going to be just one pellet hitting them. That's why you aren't making any sense.

9 or 15 .22 rounds would probably annihilate any zombie's skull, but if you pop off that many rounds you've completely negated any reason for picking the 22 over another caliber weapon.

"If I just punch the zombie in the head 2,000 times, surely it'll do enough damage to destroy the brain... so punching must be as effective as shooting the zombie 200 times with a machine gun..."

Don't bother saying things slower for my benefit. Slow and irrelevant isn't any more practical than fast and irrelevant.

:loon:

[DBCooper]

Nopers, you would break you hand!

Like I said,

As you know, shooting a shotgun (even a 12ga.) with “00 buckshot” you are only sending a .33 caliber (9 – 15 roundballs) down range at velocities equal to or slower than a .22lr. I would say it is a spray and pray approach using a shotty. Or the shooter is hoping to take out more than 1 Zed per shot, or the shooter is a bad shot, or the shotgun is for non-Zeds, or …. Well you see what I am saying.

How about your target is too far away?

[Darkness]

"One 22lr Slug(pellet?) = One 30(something) Steel Ball. One Shotgun Shell = X amount of 30(something)Steel Balls. Hence, One Shotgun Shell = X x 22lr Slugs. Conclusion: Shotgun Shell = More 22lr Slugs hitting the target in one shot. That's like hitting it with 9 to 16 22lr Slugs in one shot."


"See? I get it, and I'm not even a gun nut." :)

[mattifikation]

I would say it is a spray and pray approach using a shotty.

That's exactly what it is. And that's why shotguns are lousy on Z-Day. I don't think the point of this thread is to say shotguns are good, I think it's to ask which kind would be better if that's what you had.

And if somebody's saying shotguns are good against zombies... well, they're wrong. Mostly. I wouldn't count them out for defending a stairway. In that case, you could have the ammo piled up on the ground next to you and you might as well grab the twelvies.

[detpat]

one thing to remember is that a shotgun is one of the ways that you put multiple projectiles on A target very quickly, the other is a SMG. both fill a very similar role in a strictly tactical or anti personnel environment.

20 gauge ammo and guns aren't as common as they once were and if you don't need to make the trade off [20 has half the recoil for 2/3 the shot weight] then you really want to use a 12. unless you feature standing in an intersection beating zeds with your empty shotgun!

that said shotguns are a losing proposition if you have a choice, and that's from an ex cop who loves his shotties. heavy ammo, low capacity, high recoil and low penetration as well as a slower rate of fire and shorter effective range.

get a rifle!

[OVERKILL]

It always gets to me no matter how many times I see it, someone asks what's better a brick or a rock and half the people say a stick. A person starts a thread asking which is better 12 or 20, so logically the answer should be A or B, but we have C,D, and E answers with 22, 9mm or some other pistol or rifle caliber. If the thread talks about shotguns, rifle is not an answer. If the thread talks about zombies vampires are irrelevant. I wonder why people even bother to take the time to post when they can't take the time to read the question. I apologize for the rant, but I feel much better now.

[Darkness]

It always gets to me no matter how many times I see it, someone asks what's better a brick or a rock and half the people say a stick. A person starts a thread asking which is better 12 or 20, so logically the answer should be A or B, but we have C,D, and E answers with 22, 9mm or some other pistol or rifle caliber. If the thread talks about shotguns, rifle is not an answer. If the thread talks about zombies vampires are irrelevant. I wonder why people even bother to take the time to post when they can't take the time to read the question. I apologize for the rant, but I feel much better now.

:hug: *Darkness hugs OVERKILL.* :hug:

"Truer words were never spoken. I couldn't have said it better myself." :) :lol:

[detpat]

i did answer the question, actually several times IIRC.

[The Devistator]

I would like a 20 guage auto loader with a single barrel ///// the down fall of a 12 gauge is that if you have never shot them before it would nock you on your ass. you could still kill a zombie but without recoil but 12 gauge shotguns would be good for close quarters because blows them back off you. :shotg:

[Bob]

Mr. Devistator

Most people round these parts start shootin 12 guages when they are still kids.
As fer knockin you on yer butt, I has seen wimmin folk shoot the hail out of them.


The primary problem is the recoil.
Time back to Target is a problem for certain.

[mattifikation]

I can see a semi-auto shotgun with several drum magazines being good for defending a doorway, or a stairwell. This is assuming you're defending a stationary point, and you have all your pre-loaded drums sitting on the floor or a bench next to you.

I think you could probably defend a bottleneck for a very long time using that method. Since using that technique would nullify the advantages of lighter and smaller ammo, I think it would be best to use the 12 gauge for such a tactic. If you're not gonna be carrying it, who cares if it's heavy?

When the time came to abandon post, you're better off leaving the gun and ammo behind... unless you don't have anything else, of course.

Also, I think a shotgun might be more useful against fast zombies than against slow ones. It doesn't matter how dead and painless a creature is... a torso full of holes isn't going to move as fast as a torso in one piece. That's a simple matter of mechanices. You'd definitely be wanting those suckers to slow down. In that case, you might want the 20 gauge for its faster follow-up shots.

[detpat]

shotgun is not gonna knock you on your butt. that's a myth. remember shotguns don't much penetration, so if defending a door or stair i would want to use slugs. they kick more but will act more like a rifle round in close.

I'd want as much penetration in that situation as possible for the possibility of collateral damage to additional zeds. probably wouldn't make a difference, but maybe you would get lucky now and again.

[mattifikation]

I never said anything about knocking them on their butt.

[Birdman44]

I think a 12 gauge will be a better gun to go with. the shells are more in stock usually in store so its easier to find and they have more variety such as frangible rounds (door breachers), bean bags (good against people i guess), flashbang rounds (also good on people), plus many more.

[Dave Of The Dead]

I think a 12 gauge will be a better gun to go with. the shells are more in stock usually in store so its easier to find and they have more variety such as frangible rounds (door breachers), bean bags (good against people i guess), flashbang rounds (also good on people), plus many more.

Of course they don't sell half of those in your everyday gunstore/ supermarket. You'll most likely find buckshot everywhere you go. I wonder how popular 114 is these days?

[Birdman44]

I know normal stores don't, but i have access to some of those rounds luckily. So a 12 gauge would be more handy for me. not to mention if you came across some kind of abandoned police station (assuming they didn't take everything) you may find a few of those and a few would be all you need really.

[Bob]

This is the day of the Internet.
Specialty ammo is no big deal as long as you have money.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/index.php?cName=12-gauge-specialty-ammo

[Birdman44]

Good call, good call.

[Birdman44]

LOL. . . my god man. get some help. try reading again, sslllllooooowwwwwer.

Originally Posted by DBCooper
Gummerfan
As you know, shooting a shotgun (even a 12ga.) with “00 buckshot” you are only sending a .33 caliber (9 – 15 roundballs) down range at velocities equal to or slower than a .22lr. I would say it is a spray and pray approach using a shotty. Or the shooter is hoping to take out more than 1 Zed per shot, or the shooter is a bad shot, or the shotgun is for non-Zeds, or …. Well you see what I am saying.

Keeping this in mind, if only “1” .33 caliber ball hits its target (a zombies skull) will that stop a zombie?

If the answer is yes, then why won’t a .22lr do the job? Kind of makes "steve wonder", doesn’t it?

For the record a .33 caliber round ball weighs about 40 grains. Hmm about the same weight of a .22lr.

funny, i thought one ball from a 12 gauge shotgun had the power of a .38. even then though it can still reach out to 30 yards and possibly even more with a full choke. good enough for me :)

[Bob]

I know the answer to 12 vs 20 now.
12 wins!

[Hitman]

from another thread , just replied in a more appropate place .

One very common but 'unwise' choice made by VERY MANY survivors that IMO is overkill are shotguns. Sawn-off and pump actions. I bet you that half of the people that pick shotguns take it off games due to the punch that it packs. Ever tried firing one?

Disadvantages:
Kick-back
Clumsy weapon
Dangerous to not only zeds but yourself
Shells dont lie around the city everywhere (scarce ammo)
Splatter (can be countered by mid-range kills however, risky... want to taste zed blood?)

Commonly, quite a number of people think they can combo/kill more than one in a shot. Fact is that you willl be firing once each for a zombie.
Picture this scenario for the decieved people:
While you are firing, you notice zombies break-in from another side of your barricade, on the right. You shout out "RIGHT SIDE!" as you fire. Seems normal right? Try it. You cannot even so much as leave your mouth open when you fire, not even by accident. You would not think this to be as much of an inconvenience but, when zed break-ins occur, every second really counts.
On a final note, I would not reccomend firing a shotgun with one-hand, which brings me to my point of it being a clumsy weapon that you have to dual-hand use, unlike something lighter and effective.

Remember, these may not apply to those advanced shotguns such as the tactical ones that the SWAT/ARMY use but, chances are that you find a 12-guage or such types of shotguns.

the 12 ga is not difficult to shoot , it just takes practice the one in the pic below is a prime example. I can hit single clays out to around 30yards with it. I've even done it one handed . (these are 5" moving disks ,not stationary targets) .

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/bobsboobs/littlefriends.jpg

for doubles I used this last time ,very handy even while opperating the trap yourself . also in 12 ga.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/bobsboobs/whippet.jpg

[Redfields]

from another thread , just replied in a more appropate place .



the 12 ga is not difficult to shoot , it just takes practice the one in the pic below is a prime example. I can hit single clays out to around 30yards with it. I've even done it one handed . (these are 5" moving disks ,not stationary targets) .

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/bobsboobs/littlefriends.jpg

for doubles I used this last time ,very handy even while opperating the trap yourself . also in 12 ga.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/bobsboobs/whippet.jpg

With all that said, all i can say is that you can be my pointman in an outbreak :clap:

I guess the main point of it all is the fact that alot of people are not trained with the shotgun and choose it as a main weapon. It also factors in whether you are facing shamblers (slow and clumsy) or sprinters (shoot down or run like Usain Bolt).

The shotgun can be used as a primary weapon against zombies but I just want to convince people that if they have not fired one before the outbreak and clearly not ready to, stick to guns such as the glock or 9mm's that will be more in supply. Leave the shotguns to people like you.

[Darkness]

With all that said, all i can say is that you can be my pointman in an outbreak :clap:

"You can't have him, we already claimed him." :-P :lol:

[Hitman]

as much as I like my shotguns , I'll stick with my short rifles during an outbreak . the shotguns are for cqb /entry type work . or fast zombies that are too close but not large in numbers.

[Redfields]

"You can't have him, we already claimed him." :-P :lol:


Well, I will tag along then i guess. :)
I will be the zombait (not the drink off Dead Rising but the same function)

[JimiVengeance]

shotgun would be my first choice...yes they are slower and close combat only but damn a head shot would be practically impossible to miss with scatter shot. and as far as choosing whats better between 20 and 12, no difference in such a situation...either one will kill

[Bob]

JV

Just how short do you intend to cut that barrel to achieve "scatter shot"?

[Twister]

A lot of people seem to be under the impression a shotgun blast knocks someone back. Despite the fact that film makers love to use that effect, it's not true. As you learn in physics, the shooter would have to be thrown back the same distance as the target for that to happen. So consider that when choosing the shotgun as a weapon.

I know this is probably common knowledge in america, but in the Netherlands people actually think these things...

I don't think I would use a scatter gun at all, unless nothing better is available.

[Bob]

I want a 14" barreled 870, however I don't want to have to spend $200 on a tax stamp so I will probably never have one.

[Hitman]

I want a 14" barreled 870, however I don't want to have to spend $200 on a tax stamp so I will probably never have one.

if you get an AOW its only a $5 stamp . it can only have a pistol grip though. I like mine with the 12" barrel better than the 14" also .

[Bob]

I know about the AOW and the $5 stamp but it has to have been purpose built with a pistol grip and you can never put a shoulder stock on it, not even a folder.
(you already know this, I am stating it for others)
With the $200 stamp you can do whatever you want.
What I need to know for sure is if the barrel can be the stamp item if you cut it down yourself that way you could put it on various guns. There are people on some of the forums who say it can others say it can't. I dunno, I suppose if I get serious about it I could just call BATF and get a ruling.

I would not mind having a shorty with the pistol grip only but what I really want is to have a shoulder stock. The factory shoulder stocks are pretty short for me so it would be handy and I might want to swap it out for a folder at times. Although I am currently on the hunt for the "right" 870s so I can build one in each of the configurations I like that way I don't have to keep swapping stuff around. I bought an old Wingmaster for $64 two weeks ago. Mechanically perfect it just needs some TLC on the finish and a shortening of the barrel.

[detpat]

870's are one of my all time favorite shotties, along with the 1897 takedown and the saiga 12. zpaw would probably not be where i would want a shotgun though. too many downsides.

[Hitman]

bob , the markings can be on the barrel , but its the reciever thats the regesterd item.

[Bob]

Detpat
I think they are just one of those designs it's hard to improve on.
Right now I only have 3 of them, A Wingmaster with the original Remington Top Folder and Marine model with a Choate fixed stock older than many of the people on this forum, and the one I just got that is a project gun. I may put a saddle mount on it with a red dot sight, have not made up my mind yet. I am shopping for two more. One of which I want to have a fully rifled barrel and a red dot or perhaps a low power scope, silly as it sounds I may put a bipod on it although a bipod probably would work better on a 11-87.
I agree about shotguns in the ZPAW they would be a terrible choice.
But for the living the end of the barrel is one huge hole to look at and nothing says "you are about to die" like the sound of a 870 slide racking.


Hitman
Well at least my personal information would not have to be on the receiver.
If I get any NFA items I ought to set up a LLC with my sons as officers of the company that way there would be no transfer woes when I kick the bucket.

[joerrrrrr]

It really depends on how you've got the gun choked. If its a really tight choke so that all of your bullets hit close to each other, i don't think it makes a difference. However, if you've got a really loose choke and the spread of the pellets is large i would go with the 12 gauge.

[detpat]

i have a couple, one all tricked out and used to ride in my trunk with my call out bag. the other notable one is all original wood and is a gun my folks gave me when i was a child. lots of hunting personal "firsts" on that one for me.

[the_velociraptor]

Just wondering - would a sawn-off, other than its aesthetic qualities, be any useful in a zombie outbreak? It certainly removes some weight, and makes it more compact, but would its wider spread and larger recoil outweigh its benefits?

[Bob]

I don't think you can shorten a shotgun enough to get the kind of spread people expect from a "sawed off shotgun".
There is at least one person here with a SBS perhaps he will give us an opinion.

[Birdman44]

I don't think you can shorten a shotgun enough to get the kind of spread people expect from a "sawed off shotgun".


Agreed, the sawed of shotgun would be more practical then a regular shotgun. Although highly illegal here in america. I suggest you wait untill our government collapses during zpaw or if it legalizes them before cutting the barrel.

[Bob]

Birdman

Sawed off shotguns are not illegal in most states.
There is just a procedure you have to go through to own one.
Typically you have to have a $200 tax stamp just like you do for a full auto device. That is why in an earlier post I was saying I probably never going to own a shotgun with a 14 inch barrel, hell I can buy another shotgun for the price of the stamp.

[hotlead]

Most modern shotgun ammo reaches it's max velocity within 18" or so inside the barrel. Having a barrel much shorter than that decreases muzzle velocity and increases muzzle blast( flame/noise ). I believe sporting scatterguns with long barrels are holdovers from when shotshells were loaded with early smokeless powder and blackpowder that burned real slow, and needed every inch of barrel to attain decent velocity. Long barrels also help with a smooth swing onto a flying target, and followthrough.

I think the kind of choke you have on a shottie has more to do with the shot pattern than barrel length, a full choke will give you a smaller pattern at 25yds than a cylinder bore( no choke ), you can even get a heavy walled barrel reamed out so the shot will spread faster.

The extra two or three shells in the longer mag tube is worth more than a shorter barrel in my opinion.

I've got a 20" heavy walled barrel and an 8rd magazine tube on Ol' Painless here,

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/hotlead_photos/IMG_0249.jpg

And 32 more shells in the panels on the LBV,

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/hotlead_photos/IMG_0203.jpg

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/hotlead_photos/IMG_0201.jpg

[Birdman44]

Birdman

Sawed off shotguns are not illegal in most states.
There is just a procedure you have to go through to own one.
Typically you have to have a $200 tax stamp just like you do for a full auto device. That is why in an earlier post I was saying I probably never going to own a shotgun with a 14 inch barrel, hell I can buy another shotgun for the price of the stamp.

True, tell you the truth i would never alter one of my shotguns anyways. Guess i wasn't thinking when i posted earlier, my bad.

[Hitman]

remington figured that the optimum barrel length was 14" for getting the most out of the powder . thats the barrel length they put on their entry shotguns and such. I've got 3 short barrels for 2 different shotguns . one is a 14.5" on my remington model 11 . it is the handiest shotgun that I've ever used , runs reliably , and does great on every thing from CQB type stuff to the clay field (the short barrel really swings on target quickly) .
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/bobsboobs/Copyofwhippet-1-1.jpg


my other one is a remington police magnum AOW with a 14" barrel (factory mod choke) and a cyl bore 12" barrel . the 12" barrel will put a load of 00 buck at 15yards into one hole that I can cover with one hand (good ammo that it likes) . I've even shot clays with this , the range with the short barrel and cyl choke is only around 35 yards due to not enough pellets hitting the clay to break them regurly .this is with the 14" barrel in it.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/bobsboobs/littlefriends.jpg

I would much rather use either one of these during Z-day than my 590 . the loss of 3 rounds in the gun is more than made up in the handieness of the little guns. the weight savings is also a big plus . the same holds true of my SBR's but thats for another thread.

[RIP]

^jeesh guys lol......I only have 9mm pistol with a 8rd clips and a 20 gauge shotgun......shit you guys are overkill lol.....:evil:

My parents do live like 2 miles from me and my dad has a a bunch of rifles upstairs in the gun cabinet like a 30/30.....and a 30 aux 6 and 12 gauge shotgun and a 12 gauge doouble barrell shotgun and other shit plus I do have an old 38 special pistol at my desk at work that my grandfather gave me but it's old as shit lol.

[Birdman44]

Either way i wouldn't mind a shotgun during zday. If it will get the zeds off of me it will work. My dad has a reington 1187 i believe and i have some old pos pump that doesn't even have the factory name on it and it doesnt chamber a new round half the time i pump it :x

[Bob]

How strong is that bayonet mount?

[hotlead]

The occasion to test the bayonet mount hasn't come up yet, it's milled steel and looks just as strong as the lug on an M16 though.

It works pretty good on hay bales.

[Hitman]

the bayonete will break before the mount. mossberg built them tough.

[Bob]

Thats kool
Remington dropped the ball on bayonet mounts.
The current factory extended mag still has provisions for the ring.
I think it was the Marines who came out with a really strong mount for their shotguns. I should have bought a couple of them when I had the chance.

One of these days I am going to find a deal and will get one of those, I want it mainly for the bayonet. Hmm maybe I should look into putting a bayonet on my Saiga 12...

Ya know it is a shame that a SBS requires a $200 tax stamp and that you cannot create an AOW by changing out the stock for a pistol grip.

[Trumble0]

Bah... I hate NY... here we have to keep it to at least an 18" barrel. I've got an NEF Pardner 12ga. that I want to tacticool out with an 18" special purpose barrel, Heat shield, Mag extender, weapon-light, and a pistol grip style stock Haven't decided if I want the Benelli style, or the pure pistol grip with no buttstock. Here in NY if you have a collapsible or folding stock it has to be pinned in place... Yes, because a stock makes the gun more deadly... Oh, and we aren't allowed to have bayonet mounts, because we all know how many people are killed in NY with bayonets each year :roll:

NYC ruined any fun to be had in this state.

Haha rant aside, Everyone says shotgun is a bad idea due to the weight of the shell and the space they take up... but I would definitely grab my shotgun and some 00 buck. I think theyd do pretty well at sweeping Zeds out of houses.:evil:

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/100/l_91e09b39ef72343dc6e884bf4859e277.jpg

[Birdman44]

Haha rant aside, Everyone says shotgun is a bad idea due to the weight of the shell and the space they take up... but I would definitely grab my shotgun and some 00 buck. I think theyd do pretty well at sweeping Zeds out of houses.:evil:



No doubt, we'd keep our semi auto close by at all times during an outbreak. I think though that 12 gauge would be better than 20 only if you know you can handle the recoil though and if you know how to shoot. If not then find a 20 if possible (possible meaning that you find one and theres enough ammo near by)

[ZachM16]

the prototype 8 gauge although the kick will hurt like hell

[Bob]

Torture test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jugmbARIVtM&feature=related

This twelve guage is stock except for a folding stock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gESLOmz-4sc

20 round drum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAPaldzhOUM

[Birdman44]

the prototype 8 gauge although the kick will hurt like hell

Do they even make 8s anymore?

[Zombiequest]

Yes, costom guns only....

[mattifikation]

Man, I wish I had a Saiga...

[kiltedninja]

We don't have any shotguns, but I like the Remington 870.

[Bob]

It's hard to go wrong with an 870.
A number of the Chinese shotguns are 870 knock offs.

That being said the Saiga rocks.
The only thing is some of the brands of mags don't work very well.

[J Dub]

i'd go with the 12 gauge, just for the extra load and power it packs. but not just any 12 gauge, must be a pump action (preferably winchester defender model as i've put thousands of rounds through'em and never had a failure).

but in a perfect world i'd have me a saiga 12 autoloader with a 20 round drum magazine. or even better yet. get the AA-12, select fire with almost zero recoil :evil:

[J Dub]

here's a clip i found with mac playing with the aa-12. watch the entire clip, there are some impressive frag-12 shells that will blow your mind :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

[ZedHunter]

I want you to read the WHOLE post before giving your thoughts/opinions. If you have nothing constructive to say or anything positive, please dont post. Now thats out of the way, here we go.

As you can tell, I own 2 shotguns. As for shell prices, they get pretty expensive for the more powerful shells. I have slugs and 00bk rounds. However, they can break your wallet within one trip to the store. So, I've been thinking of stocking up on birdshots. 21-22 bucks for 100rds at wally world or online stores. Its alot cheaper than paying $1 per round, or a little under that. Now, I can get slugs for $3.17 per 5, but shooting multiple slugs through a 12ga will wear on your shoulder after a while. However, you can shoot birdshot/target loads all day long.

Now, my real question is...would birdshot kill a zombie? I know it'd have to be relatively close to do it, since I have a "mod" choke in my hunting barrel.

Now, if you need to make fun of me, please PM me. I dont mind arguing with you based on a question that you didn't need to read.

That is all.

[Brutish Sailor]

I have never been a fan of shotguns vs. zombies.

While the therory is sound, the idea that the infection can be spread very easily makes me VERY weary about using birdshot.

Make sure you have ventless eye protection, painters mask that covers mouth and ears. MAYBE think about getting a 3m microfilter respirators. Nice comfort zone weight wise. Plus VERY affordable and obtainable. You could upgrade to military issue stuff but I think that it will be a little overkill.

[detpat]

I've seen a few folks shot with small size shot and most of the pellets didn't penetrate further than skin. you would need to be really close, as almost any shotgun load will penetrate at VERY close range {even a blank will mess you up at contact range]

[Dave Of The Dead]

No doubt, I've been going to the range every weekend with my new 12 ga and don't even want to touch the buckshot and slugs until I know I'll be shooting at something that deserves a load like that. I can see birdshot being a zombie stopper within about 15 ft maybe 20. But at that point, you might as well use a pistol. I'd say, get yourself some extra padding for your shoulder and go to the range regularly. You'll get used to shooting larger loads faster than you'd think.

[ZedHunter]

Well I dont have a pistol, nor does getting one in New York an easy task. I wish I could. I would love a 357mag. But, I'm also 18, 19 in august. So even if i did, I got 2 more years until I can even attempt to get one.

Its not more the recoil, its more of the pricing for slugs/buckshot. Slugs are only $3.17 here, so thats not a huge deal..but I dont know.

[ZedHunter]

I’ve been shooting scatterguns for many years and anything I’ve been able to do with my 12 gauge I’ve been able to do with my 20 gauge equally well.

I don’t believe a shotgun should be any person’s primary anti-zombie weapon. I do believe that a shotgun is an asset to have in a fire team or as a backup weapon.

1. What is your opinion on “12 gauge vs. 20 gauge”?
2. Is the extra shot of the 12 gauge worth the weight?
3. Is the availability of a 12 gauge better than a 20?
4. Can you do the same damage with a 12 gauge or a 20?
5. Autoloader vs. Pump vs. Twin Barrels vs. Single Shot?
6. Should you have a scattergun at all?I guess I can give my biased opinion.

1. I prefer 12ga to 20ga. I've only seen more variety in 12ga compared to 20ga. I don't see much 20ga. Idk. Its what I see.

2. Depends on what size shell. Theres more power. Plenty of info on the internet that can prove it. Google it.

3. If you mean shells, then yes. Theres a little bit more variety for the 12ga, locally anyway. Internet anything is possible.

4. Some people say you can do the same with either or, but the shell sizes are different. Put them next to each other. You'll see. A 20ga slug cannot do the same as a 12ga slug. youtube "single slug". It'll be a 2007 video. A 20ga slug cant do that.

5. I prefer pumps and single shots. I'm not a fan of sxs, o/u or semis. Its personal preference. In a zombie outbreak, semis would be the best choice, esp if you have a mag extension.

6. Should you have a scattergun? Only if you enjoy shooting them. I wouldnt buy a rifle that wasnt a 22LR. I dont find them appealing. I enjoy my shotguns. I feel comfortable and confident shooting each of my guns. If I didnt, I wouldnt own them.

[homelitexl]

screw that i choose a 16 gauge

[homelitexl]

i like my 16 gauge double barrel out of all guns ivce shot

[ZedHunter]

Only bad thing is the shell availability.

[homelitexl]

around here there not tto hard to find

[ZedHunter]

Where abouts is that?
I mean, I do see 16ga shells. But, I also see the lines and lines of 12ga/20ga boxes, too.

[homelitexl]

wal-mart local gun shops ect. the 16 gauge is really populAR AROUND HERE

[Dave Of The Dead]

Well I dont have a pistol, nor does getting one in New York an easy task. I wish I could. I would love a 357mag. But, I'm also 18, 19 in august. So even if i did, I got 2 more years until I can even attempt to get one.

Its not more the recoil, its more of the pricing for slugs/buckshot. Slugs are only $3.17 here, so thats not a huge deal..but I dont know.

Oh I know exactly what you're screaming. Can't actually buy a pistol for another two years. Like I said earlier, I really don't feel comfortable putting a shell that is that expensive into something that really isn't worth it. Yes, when the zeds come, I'd empty my bank account to get as many as possible, but right now buckshot and deer slugs and right below my car insuance, my xbox live, my food costs, living expenses, water bill, AC bill, cell phone... you see where this is going. Anyway, practice with the birdshot and the light loads for now. If you find a cheaper heavy load, grab a box or crate. Really if you can get good with birdshot at a decent distance, you can be better with a heavy load. I just pick up a 100 round box of $20 Federal Target Load a week and practice with that. When I feel the need to buy slugs or buckshot, I will, but not until then.

[ZedHunter]

Yeah, thats what I do. I get the 100rds from Walmart.
I love it.

[Dave Of The Dead]

Yeah, thats what I do. I get the 100rds from Walmart.
I love it.

I was surprised how reliable the rounds were at a price like that, you know? The fact that I can shatter a clay at fifty yards with those suckers is just astounding.

[homelitexl]

i know i own a brand new 870 express mag 12 gauge but i never use it because i love my winchester 16 gauge pump more.

[ZedHunter]

How much you want for it and where do you live? :P
I've shot my cousins Rem 870 20ga, I just dont like the slide release location. I like the mossbergs better. :)

But i'll take your 12ga if you dont want it. :)

But ya Dave, they are nice. I only shoot federal/winchester/remington through any of my guns. Just because I know how reliable they are.

[Bob]

How much of the "target" 12 gauge stuff do you have on hand?
I think I am down to about 1200 rounds or so.
I need more slugs and 00.

It's hard to beat an 870.
I like my Saigas but if the guano hit the fan I would choose an 870 over the S-12.

I want a 11-87P but wow $867 before tax is a lot for a shotgun when I already have several...

[homelitexl]

the 870 9is not for sale nor is the winchester i shot my first turkey with the 870 its kinda sentimental

[Bob]

Nother shotgun today.
Tacticalized 1100

[ZedHunter]

I have 112rds of target loads for 12ga.
I need more. But, no job = no ammo :(

[Bob]

ZedHunter

To bad you are not local to me, I have a couple of hundred rounds of 20 guage I would make you a heck of a deal on.
I just can't quite bring myself to buy a 20 gauge just shoot the stuff.

Nothing wrong with it, I told the wife to pick me up a couple of value packs from the Wally and she mistakenly got 20 guage.
Those bastages won't exchange it.

[homelitexl]

bob what you want for them

[Dave Of The Dead]

ZedHunter

To bad you are not local to me, I have a couple of hundred rounds of 20 guage I would make you a heck of a deal on.
I just can't quite bring myself to buy a 20 gauge just shoot the stuff.

Nothing wrong with it, I told the wife to pick me up a couple of value packs from the Wally and she mistakenly got 20 guage.
Those bastages won't exchange it.

At least it wan't that big of a loss. That is why they call em value packs I guess.

[ZedHunter]

Ahh damn!
Yeah the 12ga/20ga boxes look exactly the same. But, if you keep them..you can use them as "money". Trade them to people who need it for something you can use. :-P

[Bob]

Homelite
By the time it was shipped I doubt it would be worth the trouble.

[Onslaught]

Ahh damn!
Yeah the 12ga/20ga boxes look exactly the same. But, if you keep them..you can use them as "money". Trade them to people who need it for something you can use. :-P


never trade ammo.

you're likely to get it back at over 1000fps.

[Bob]

Bob's recently acquired Remington 1100 is lonely.
It needs a playmate.
Bob is having a hard time deciding what to get.
Should he get

1. A Mossberg 930 SPX (hard to find but I know where one is)

2. A Remington 11-87P (more expensive and heavy but also more durable)

[Dave Of The Dead]

Bob's recently acquired Remington 1100 is lonely.
It needs a playmate.
Bob is having a hard time deciding what to get.
Should he get

1. A Mossberg 930 SPX (hard to find but I know where one is)

2. A Remington 11-87P (more expensive and heavy but also more durable)

Get the mossberg.

[homelitexl]

which ever one is rarer then maybe bob can help me find a mauser broom handle pistol.

[ZedHunter]

I'd say Mossberg. Just because alot of people I know say they are junk. :)
I love my Mossberg anyway.

[bandits1]

In the context of this forum and this thread, your criteria for choosing a shotgun should probably be:

1) reliability
2) durability
3) popularity of that model or similar models. How avaliable are spare parts going to be if z-day hits?

[Trumble0]

I have to pick my NEF Pardner... it's a clone of a remington 870, and takes almost any part off of an 870 except chokes and barrels... I have 2 chokes though so they wont be a problem. And my barrel is in excellent shape.

I replaced the brass bead with a fiber optic bead, I have a flashlight mounted to it, im looking for a better one than the LED one I have, that won't break the bank. And it holds 1 more shell than a stock remington 870, 5+1. It's heavy enough where there's minimal recoil even with 00 Buck and slugs. I prefer 3 in. #3-#4 shot through my Super Full Turkey choke though. Gooseloads FTW :evil:

[hunter25]

id never consider using a 20 ga. i hunt alot and both my shotguns are mossberg pump 12ga's, a 500aand a 600ct (nearly identical). the 500a had over 2000 cartridges through it since i last gave it a full strip and clean, so i stripped it yesterday and wished i hadnt bothered, it was fine. as for reliability the only problems i ever have are when i mess up when pumping (pumping too quick),plus theyre common guns so spare partswont be an issue :)

[Trumble0]

Ive fired a few 1100's I never got used to charging them, I don't like that you have to like Stick your finger near the bolt... or maybe the guy showing me how to shoot it was retarded. I just like the simplicity of a pump action shotgun. I took a gun sfaety course last year and the same guy who showed me how to shoot an 1100 was trying to tell me I had to take my semi-auto rifles/shotguns to a gunsmith because theyre far too complicated for me to take apart and clean... then I told him I take them apart pretty much everytime I shoot them to clean them, and put them back together correctly, and he didn't say anything more.

[hunter25]

Ive fired a few 1100's I never got used to charging them, I don't like that you have to like Stick your finger near the bolt... or maybe the guy showing me how to shoot it was retarded. I just like the simplicity of a pump action shotgun. I took a gun sfaety course last year and the same guy who showed me how to shoot an 1100 was trying to tell me I had to take my semi-auto rifles/shotguns to a gunsmith because theyre far too complicated for me to take apart and clean... then I told him I take them apart pretty much everytime I shoot them to clean them, and put them back together correctly, and he didn't say anything more.

really? any semi autos i had were easier to strip than the pumps :loon:

[Trumble0]

really? any semi autos i had were easier to strip than the pumps :loon:

Yeah... This guy was a joke anyway. It was for a Hunter's safety course, and I'm sure he had to speak like we were all 5 years old because normally he is teaching people who don't know anything about guns or have never handled them, but everyone in the room owned a weapon and had been shooting for sometime and he still kept his condescending tone... I agree. My NEF is a %#^%# to get back together if you strip the forearm forks out of the reciever and trying to get the bolt assembly to seat while sliding it in but my SKS like drops in to place easily. but IMHO nothing beats a handy 12 gauge

[Stankynuts]

Ill take a 12 gauge always for reasond unknown -_- but id mostly just use it to sadly say kill other people most likely

[Dave Of The Dead]

Ill take a 12 gauge always for reasond unknown -_- but id mostly just use it to sadly say kill other people most likely

I'm sure Darkness will see this soon, so I'll just cover for her.

"We do not talk about killing any living/ uninfected humans in this forum. Please refrain from mentioning such things in the future. Thank you."

[Darkness]

Ill take a 12 gauge always for reasond unknown -_- but id mostly just use it to sadly say kill other people most likely

"We DO NOT discuss the killing of Uninfected, Living, Humans on this forum. Please refrain from such comments in the future. Thank you."

[Dave Of The Dead]

Damnit, I was so close....

[Shufflef00t]

So what about it? Whats the best setup for a shotgun to be used in zed defense?

buck or bird-shot? Slug?

Any recommended barrel length? stock options? accessories?

I would think a Standard or recoil-reducing stock, and a turkey barrel firing buck shot.


(my apologies if covered, I looked and couldnt find this anywhere)

[Darkness]

"Next time, try digging a bit deeper, before starting a new topic." ;-)

[ShotGunGuy93]

If youre using slugs and aiming for the head it doesnt matter weather its 12 or 20..

[Shufflef00t]

If youre using slugs and aiming for the head it doesnt matter weather its 12 or 20..

Exactly. But would bird or buck-shot be more effective though? I'm thinking a 12g with a long barell firing shot would increase my chances of a drop.

Thanks darkness.

[mattifikation]

Dick Cheney did what many of us have dreamed of one day doing... no, not becoming rich or being vice-president. He shot a lawyer in the face.

What we learned from this is 1: If you have enough money and power, you can shoot people in the face and make them apologize for the stress they caused you by blocking your shot, and 2: bird shot will not penetrate the skull.

[Shufflef00t]

maybe not bird shot, but surely buck shot would be up to the task?

[ShotGunGuy93]

Yes, 00 buck from even just a 20g will do the trick..just dont use birdshot..

[Hitman Monkey]

1. What is your opinion on “12 gauge vs. 20 gauge”?
2. Is the extra shot of the 12 gauge worth the weight?
3. Is the availability of a 12 gauge better than a 20?
4. Can you do the same damage with a 12 gauge or a 20?
5. Autoloader vs. Pump vs. Twin Barrels vs. Single Shot?
6. Should you have a scattergun at all?

1. & 3. i think i'd stick with 12. the recoil is manageable with some practice, and i've seen way more options on ammo for 12
2. & 4. this really depends on what load you have in your shotgun. buck shot in a 20 could do more damage than bird shot with a 12. there are tons of ammo options for shotguns, so it all depends on what works for you and what will make a zed head go all explode-y
5. i'm a big fan of pump, simply because they are very reliable. autoloaders need more maintenance and have more intricate parts (which means more parts that can break or wear out). double barrels and single shots are probably the most reliable, because they are the pretty simple. granted, 2 barrels to the face will put anything down - but those couple of seconds to reload might be the end of you.
6. hell yes! few guns are as effective up close. and i've always said that a zombie outbreak would soon become a survival situation - if you need to hunt for your dinner, it's tough to hit birds in flight with a rifle or a pistol

[Onslaught]

1. What is your opinion on “12 gauge vs. 20 gauge”?
2. Is the extra shot of the 12 gauge worth the weight?
3. Is the availability of a 12 gauge better than a 20?
4. Can you do the same damage with a 12 gauge or a 20?
5. Autoloader vs. Pump vs. Twin Barrels vs. Single Shot?
6. Should you have a scattergun at all?

1. & 4. 20 is lighter to carry and the ammo is lighter as well. A slug or 00 buck load from either will be plenty for shamblers. And a 20 is easier to sling around on the faster game birds if that's your thing. Slugs, buck, and bird loads are all readily available and may be more available after all of the 12 has been scavenged. 20 is slightly less available pre-ZPAW, but the difference is negligible and the price of 20 is better.

2. & 4. No. Against brain sized targets, a 20 will do anything a 12 will do.

5. Autoloader. While a pump does have less parts, I have NEVER had a failure of any kind with my remington 1100. Autoloading shotguns are really not much more complicated, there are probably 4 more parts in the 1100 than there are in my 11-87. All are made of steel and not going to break any time soon. Autoloaders have the advantage of being softer shooters. A gun that is easier to shoot means that you will practice more and flinch less. On closer inspection, a double or single may be the way to go. Sawn off into a pistol, it would make a handy door breaching tool.

6. Personally, I won't. At least, not as a part of my EDC loadout. As a weapon against zombies the shotgun is outclassed by the semiauto carbine in every way. Magazine capacity, accuracy, recoil, weight, ammo weight, ammount of ammo carried, all fall firmly in favor of the carbine. Shotguns are good if you don't have anything else, for opening doors, making large holes, and they're good for flying birds (just shoot them while they're not flying with an infinitely reloadable air rifle), but there's a reason that no military in the world uses a shotgun as their main battle arm. Jack of all trades, master of none.