Zombjitsu!

[Augustus Desius]

Topic

Hey, what hand-to-hand combat style would you think be the most useful on a zombie covered world? I personally think judo, as it has a number of methods to defeat overwhelming strength and grappling.

Also, I made this topic before, but I couldn't find it since the revamp. So I'm remaking it. Please delete this if you find the previous one.

Example:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scenario:
-Situation: Z-day
-Location: Gun Shop
-Mission: Restocking ammunition
-Party: Alone

You enter the shop, closing the door behind you. All is quiet and dark, the only light is that which is filtering though the broken segments of the boarded windows. You notice most everything has been looted already. Mostly what you find is loose rounds on the floor, empty cases, and blood. You decide to head upstairs.

When you get there the door is locked, you listen carefully, placing you ear against the door, in order to pick up any sound, and other than your own heartbeat, you hear nothing. Not to be fooled, you gently knock on the door, in order to alert anyone inside, or perhaps get a zombie to move. You listen again. Nothing. You decide to kick open the door.

No sooner than you do so, a zombie stumbles though the opening, hands stretched out. You attempt to draw your melee weapon, but the zombie was too close, and you can't draw the weapon without exposing yourself to a bite. It grabs onto you, struggling to draw you in. In an instant, you close the distance, position your center of gravity beneath its, and perform a perfect hip throw.

The zombie now lies on it back on the floor. You step back and kick as hard as you can. You are rewarded with a satisfying crunch as your boots come away sticky with undead brain matter.


tldr: be prepared.

[Darkness]

"Is this one about Weaponless Combat?"

[Augustus Desius]

Yes'm

Also, grats on making moderator!

[Darkness]

"Cool, just wanted to get the description right." :)

"And thank you." :)

[Zombie_215]

What if you don't have any hand to hand combat training? I have no idea what a "perfect hip throw" is or how to do it.

[Behemoth]

When zombie lunges, side step, whack it in the small of the back with both hands like a baseball swing without the bat, zombies momentum will keep it moving forward, run into room, shut door if possible, draw weapon, go back to finish of zombie or if unsure that a single is all you have to face, get the heck out!

[fester_hicks]

Ya...Judo i'd think...but i hope not to be that damn close... but you have to think, alittle karate or akito wouldnt be bad either just because it might not only be Zeds your battling... some striking skills would be good

[mattifikation]

Judo is too close for comfort for me. I'd rather use something that keeps them at a distance, so they can't bite me. Tae Kwon Do and some nice boots sounds like the ticket.

[zmbvan]

Muey Thai kick-boxing would be perfect for this type of combat. Hell any form of fighting could probably take down a zombie. But you still have about a 50/50 chance of being bit.

[zombie butcher]

Hmm I teach Taekwondo and I think my legs could keep them at bay but I would prob go into my Aikido training to send them flying away from me once they got in close. Also grappling would be a nice skill if you are one on one and they had you pinned to the ground. But if get pinned with more then one I would think you were screwed.
Escrima Training would be also usefull.

[skullwarrior]

i think ive played enough re4 to try and do hunks special move to side step a zombie and snap its neck.

[fester_hicks]

i will tend not to put myself even CLOSE to a situation were I have to get that close to a Zed. Who knows what the situation will be regarding the initial reason the Zed's arose....

[Evil Pug]

The Father McGruder style! :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt-29u0e7Bo


http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b38/lcple3/priest.jpg

[voyager]

The defensive moves learned while studying judo and grappling would be very useful in close quarters. Zeds are mostly grabbers to pull either them to you or themselves to you to bite. I belive very tight fitting, but still practical and protective, would be key. If they can't grab hold it is easier to slip around so to speak

[IronJayBee]

Koppojutsu is a bonebreaking technique, also a great way to break graples and holds that a zombie might have on you

[Faran Brigo]

What kind of zombies are we talking about here?

NoTLD 68? They're pathetic one on one, Ben took a few at the same time, they're slow, weak and dumb.

Dawn remake? I think you're toast if you don't have weapons, those things look RABID.

Land of the dead? the zed might be armed, but I guess you could still kick its ass hand to hand if it was only one.

[fester_hicks]

I will study the ancient art of RUNNING, with a minor disipline in the ancient art of tripping the fat guy first

[Headless Lynx]

What would you do if a zed was to burst through your door and attack you off guard?

I would put my thumbs in it's eyes and push as far as I could to the brain and I would quickly rap a t-shirt or some clothing around my hand and would then grab it's jaw and try to rip off it's jaw. :evil:

[RogueAI]

I'd try to get behind him and break his neck. Although, depending on his speed, simply kicking him back and running for a weapon may be the best option.

[IronJayBee]

I agree with Rouge, i would just keep them back until i could grab something to wail on it with :evil:

[kai055]

you could also use elbows if zombies get 2 close and hit under the chin or in the chest.

[jagus12]

I would just try the sweeper! (kick his legs making him fall, and kick the ****er in the head:evil:)

[Umbrela]

I'd have to agree that Judo would be the best unarmed fighting style to deal with zombies. The problem is I can't seem tho find a dojo that teaches judo.

[Augustus Desius]

I'd have to agree that Judo would be the best unarmed fighting style to deal with zombies. The problem is I can't seem tho find a dojo that teaches judo.

Although it isn't nearly as effective as learning from a dojo, there are several sites that give you instruction on the techniques of judo. Look for video files so you can see it in action. Also, the USM FM21-150 was released a while ago, which borrows heavily from judo for it's hand-to-hand. Just use google and search for FM21-150 and you should be able to find a .pdf to download somewhere. Beyond that, it's just looking for some people who will let you practice on them.

[Umbrela]

Although it isn't nearly as effective as learning from a dojo, there are several sites that give you instruction on the techniques of judo. Look for video files so you can see it in action. Also, the USM FM21-150 was released a while ago, which borrows heavily from judo for it's hand-to-hand. Just use google and search for FM21-150 and you should be able to find a .pdf to download somewhere. Beyond that, it's just looking for some people who will let you practice on them.
Thanks, I'll be sure to look for that.

[JakAttak]

Judo would be good any martial art that teaches how to initiate and escape holds to buy you time to whip out your glock and shoot it between the eyes.

[Cjyounger33]

I was thinking about this the other day and the best martial arts I came up with for zombie defense is aikido and/or Judo. First off, most strikes against zombies would most likely be ineffective. Most sources seem to agree that pain is no deterrence to zombies and that is the primary effect of strikes. Incapacitating strikes such as knee kicks could be practical however. So learning how to kick might be a good idea seeing as a zombie with broken legs would be easier to outrun. Other than that though, most zombie-like attacks seem to be nothing but sloppy force and aggression. Aikido and judo would be perfect for redirecting said force to take a zombie down quickly and easily and make a quick getaway. Thoughts?

[VideoJunkie]

...uh...ok, how about...well, see I...um..:loon:


Ok, here goes. Don't do that. That's it, just don't do that. I think Jenny said it best R-U-N Forest! R-U-N!!!It also works with zombies!

[mattifikation]

Judo requires grappling. The most useful techniques from the grappling arts would be the escapes.

So let's say you get cornered somewhere by a zombie and you're out of ammo.

Do you really want to have to get close-in to do a Judo move on it?

Or would you rather just knock it over with a kick to the chest? You don't have to cause pain. You just have to knock it out of the way. If you're a good, fast, powerful kicker, a slow zombie isn't going to be able to grab your leg in time.

In all other situations, VJ has it right. Run, Forrest indeed. So free running/parkour might be a more suitable martial-arts-like sport to get into for zombie training.

[Subgenius]

I agree. Don't get in close and wrestle with a zombie. But, if you cannot help it, then it would help to know Judo throws and Jiu-Jitsu sweeps in order to keep from being bitten or scratched. Sweeps are usually used in Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling or grappling to get out from under an opponent. So, if you get surprised and end up on your back, then a sweep would be helpful. Judo also has sweeps, but less so than other forms of hand-to-hand close-in fighting where a punch or a kick may not be an option.

But, ultimately, since zombies (usually) want to bite you, any close-quarters fighting will be extremely dangerous as they can bite you or scratch you and cause you to die without winning the fight. I don't know many martial arts forms that really focus on defending from being bitten or scratched at the way that a zombie seems to do in most every zombie story. Still, I would rather know how to defend myself than to wrestle around with a zombie without any idea of what to do.

[mattifikation]

Well, a scratch is generally only going to be a problem if their bodily fluid gets into the wound. Of course, since they're decaying, there's a huge chance of that. So I guess this post is a big waste of time. Oh wellz. Haha

[craniumcrusher]

I think that all fighting systems that were developed for fighting people are ineffective for combat against the undead. If you try to grapple with a zombie, what’s to stop it from biting you? If you try to punch a zombie there is a good chance the zombie will catch your fist with its mouth. I believe the only way to slay an undead unarmed is to first knock it to the floor by kicking it in the back of the knees and then jump-stomp on ether its temple or the base of its scull. Heavy steel toe work boots work best.

[Darkness]

I think that all fighting systems that were developed for fighting people are ineffective for combat against the undead. If you try to grapple with a zombie, what’s to stop it from biting you? If you try to punch a zombie there is a good chance the zombie will catch your fist with its mouth. I believe the only way to slay an undead unarmed is to first knock it to the floor by kicking it in the back of the knees and then jump-stomp on ether its temple or the base of its scull. Heavy steel toe work boots work best.

"I have a suggestion.....check out this thread......."

http://www.allthingszombie.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15836


"........and come back." ;-) :lol:

[VideoJunkie]

Darkness has a point. The right protective wear would make a HUGE difference in a melee situation with a zed. Good leather welding gloves would make it impossible to bite your hands or forearms. Similar gear could be used to protect the neck and shoulders, which are always at risk in close combat. Hell, a wetsuit would offer great protection from bites! Then there's the idea of using chainmail and gauntlets! I nice armored glove would give your fist that "biteproof" quality so in demand with the Zombjitsu crowd! Not to mention adding a nice bit of extra bang to your punches! So, if you want to go hand to hand with a zed, think PROTECTIVE GEAR!

As for me, no thanks! I'll trade the extra protection for the ability to move quickly. Also, without the wetsuit I'll be able to turn my head. Being able to look behind me might be a real plus in the survival game. I simply refuse to engage in ANY melee with zeds. That's just not bright! So I REFUSE!

Okay, for the sake of argument, if I did somehow wind up confronted with a couple of zeds while I was unarmed, I'd...Oh Crap! I was gonna use my freakishly deadly ninja skills, but I just remembered that I don't have any!

I guess I'll just fight a zed the way I'd fight a drunk. Count on his lack of agility and even greater lack of intellect! Grab one of his arms and spin him away from me, then run. Repeat as needed. The truth is that I'm not nearly confident enough in my hand to hand skills to get physical with a zed if there was any other way. I'd be willing to go toe to toe with most men (didn't say I'd WIN, just that I'm willing), but when it comes to infectious undead...I'm all about the 'better part of valor'! Hey, that's just me.

I guess what I'm saying is that as long as we're all discussing this from the position that unarmed combat with a zed is out of the question, except as the last resort of someone who's plan has gone TERRIBLY awry, then I guess it's not a bad idea to figure out how you'd deal with the situation. Planning for the worst case scenario is an excellent survival strategy! But if any of you young ninja wannabe's are thinking of this as a viable alternative to actual weapons...that's just a terrible idea. Hell, what makes you think you could keep a zed from biting you in hand to hand combat? Even professional boxers can't stop that from happening!OOWWW!!! My Ear!!! Damn you TYSON!!!
What makes you think you'll do any better?

[Bob]

If you carry enough guns you won't wind up unarmed.
But if I found myself in that most horrible of situations I would...
Hmmm I am at a loss, no knife, no gun, no chucks, no axe or baseball bat?
I guess I would jump off a building and find out if I can fly.

[Subgenius]

It's all based on the circumstances. What if you are not in the military, SWAT, or some other force where they get issued body armor? What if you are just a common Joe or Jane with jeans and a tee-shirt? In that case, you have to fight them (or use the suicide option). Having a gun is great, if you happen to be home when the outbreak sweeps through your town. Or, if you always carry it. What if you did not bring it with you?

Hand-to-hand combat with zombies is just not going to go well. Most of what we discussed here assumes (or so it seems) that just one zombie is attacking you while you do not have weapons to fight with and cannot easily run away. So far, the only smart option seems to be knocking the zombie down and placing the boots to its head repeatedly. Or, grab the nearest blunt or sharp object and whack the zombie into the afterlife.

If there are more than one or two zombies, then you are in trouble. Especially if these are fast-moving zombies. Slow moving zombies are easier to fight. Look at how well they did in Dawn of the Dead 1978. Numbers will always win out eventually, so you have to get to a safe place fast.

[Bob]

If I have pants on I have at least one gun.
If I can make it to my office or home I will be ok.

[VideoJunkie]

If I have pants on I have at least one gun.
If I can make it to my office or home I will be ok.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again! Whatever happens. I hope and pray that you'll have pants on!:lol:

[Krazymouse]

Grab the Neck, Its probably decayed a bit. If you can, rip it off with your bare hands. The more it decayed the easier. If you can't, Shake it around and try to cut off blood circulation. The brain needs blood to work, even if it is zombiefied

[VideoJunkie]

The brain needs blood to work, even if it is zombiefied


Gotta disagree with that. If blood flow were a determining factor, putting a few rounds through the heart would drop a zed. Hell, for that matter, any really significant trauma would cause enough disruption of the blood flow to stop a zombie. It doesn't work that way. Sorry, but to stop a zed you've gotta destroy the brain!

[Necrowerx]

What would you do if a zed was to burst through your door and attack you off guard?

I would put my thumbs in it's eyes and push as far as I could to the brain and I would quickly rap a t-shirt or some clothing around my hand and would then grab it's jaw and try to rip off it's jaw. :evil:

I gotta say, I think that's a genuinely bad idea.
For starters, I doubt your thumbs are long enough to reach the brain stem/medulla. Second, it might take more pressure than you expect, depending on your knowledge - a lot of people have the misconception that eye sockets are holes into the skull, but they're not - there is solid, albeit thin, bone in the back of the ocular cavities. You'd have to break through that to get to the brain, which takes time, time in which you could get bitten.
Just push 'im over if you can and run.

[Necrowerx]

Thanks, I'll be sure to look for that.

I have FM 21-150 in PDF if you still want it.

[UNDEAD FRED]

The brain needs blood to work, even if it is zombiefied


The head allways seem to live on in Romero movies once it gets decapitated.

[MFISH618]

The head allways seem to live on in Romero movies once it gets decapitated.

Yeah it does. I'm getting a chain mail suit, steel toed shoes and mucho ammo.
A sharpened steel rod might come in handy.

[craniumcrusher]

Well if I had the luxury of armor I could use it as a weapon itself. I would have a suit of riveted chainmail, not links that are just bent or even welded, but Minnie bolted. With a chain hood and if possible a chain facemask covering my nose and mouth, and a pair or those big goggles S.W.A.T teams and skiers are so fond of but I would replace the elastic band with a tight leather belt. If I can’t get the chain hood I would ware a full face motorcycle helmet that has a visor and possibly, drill a shallow on the center of the fore head of the helmet then fill the whole with liquid epoxy.
Then when dry drill a long, fat screw into the epoxy then snip the end off and cut it to a 4 sided spike with my trusty bolt cutters. You will need to have a steel file to smooth the sides of the screws and to keep your spikes sharp. You could use that for some serious no hands zombie slaying. A pair of plate armor gauntlets that have on the top of the hand in the same place as Wolverine’s middle claw. You could punch clean whole in a zombies fore head with that. Spiked elbow and knee pads as well. It might be possible to weld a spike on to a steel toe boot. All spikes should be about 3 ½’’.
I believe armor such as this could render melee weapons obsolete. A punch, elbow, knee, kick, and head butt are all now one hit wonders. There is no rebound time, by that I mean there is no brief period of time after you swung and how long it takes you to deliver another shot. I really don’t like to define martial arts by styles but if I had to you should become familiar with judo, jujitsu, karate, Taekwondo, and Aikido. Muay tie would be especially effective because all they focus on is punching kicking, Kneeing, and elbowing.
So what do you think?
:)

[Darkness]

"Okay, my point wasn't to start a conversation about clothing and such in this thread. That's for the other thread." :naughty:


"My point is, you should take two things in to consideration in this conversation."

"A). Some of us are planning on wearing protective clothing, so you should adjust your comments accordingly."

"B). Most of us are gonna be wearing 'something' to protect our skin, usually including some kind of heavy duty gloves, such as work gloves. This will make a difference on how quickly a zombie will be able to get a bite in." :think:


"If you plan on wearing protective clothing, just say so, without major details. We will add it to our data." :)

[craniumcrusher]

Sorry, I guess I got more than a little carried away. :doh:

[Warlock]

I'd prefer Krav Maga or Pai Shin Te Kwa, not Judo as it is grappling and since you're so close you it's easy to get bitten

[Bob]

craniumcrusher

Just don't fall in a pond...

[KrimsonKing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nmoCTo513M

these guys are the ultimate skull smashing martial artists.:clap:

You can do it to, just start hitting stuff that is harder than you are. Just watch the video.

[Subgenius]

I am learning the martial art form known as Flying Guillotine in preparation for the zombie outbreak. :)

Master of the Flying Guillotine - U.S. Theatrical Trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmdP1qTjGZY

[kiltedninja]

Krav Maga is a must in this situation, they teach effective striking, escaping holds, and counter throws.

I think Cystema(sp?), A Russian art, similar to Judo would also be effective.

Certain disciplines of Kempo, there's like 300 of them.

[tytanos14]

Judo Would be Perfect Z's Pretty much grab and bite so just Deflect there grabs

[KrimsonKing]

A zombie would grab you with its teeth, not its hands.:roll:

[KrimsonKing]

You must remember the only way to kill a zombie is to kill the brain.

Hand to hand martial arts that are designed to fight people would be ineffective against the undead. If you want to just knock a Zom down just kick it in the chest or back of its knee. It’s a lot safer and quicker than trying to grapple with it. If you are untrained and are going to kill a zombie knock it to the floor then stomp on its temple or the base of its skull. It may be possible to sever its spine with an axe kick (downward kick with the heel of your foot) delivered at the base of the back of the neck to immobilize it.

If you are going to be an effective martial artist against zombies, you must become proficient in hard body training. You could then easily crush a skull with a single punch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nmoCTo513M

[Darkness]

If you are going to be an effective martial artist against zombies, you must become proficient in hard body training. You could then easily crush a skull with a single punch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nmoCTo513M

"Tell me more about this 'hard body training', I'm interested. I know its been done, breaking big hard stuff with the bare hands. I'd like to learn more." :think:

[KrimsonKing]

Everything I know about it is in the video (which I highly suggest you watch if you haven’t already) which is a clip from a show called fight science on the National Geographic channel. Sorry I can’t be of more help.

The more you traumatize your bones the more calcium structure they lay down, making them harder so you can break harder and harder things without injuring yourself. It is painful in the beginning but totally worth it in the long run.

Here is a guy doing some hand conditioning with a hammer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf31ZUkoHow

[snakebite]

I would lean more towards styles like aikido or hapkido where you are twisting and breaking joints and limbs--thus preventing them from grabbing you/standing up/moving. Granted you'd still need to kill them and they would still be dangerous but you can "disarm" them with proper application of force to joints, etc. I myself have dallied a little and its awesome. As an actual Army Infantryman I have spent most of my time with Krav-Maga (the Army advocates/teaches jiu-jitsu, and it is fun but not really good for actual fighting. It is useful and provides a good base, but you need more. Most Combat Arms units encourage this extr-curricular training, but officially the Army stays away from it to prevent injuries. Anyways...). Krav-Maga is awesome in its defensive applications for civillians, but really shines when taken in the context of someone in actual combat. Its all about beating somebody senseless while taking/tossing them to the ground (via joint-lock, throw, what-have-you) and finishing them off with repeated blows to the face, neck, head, ankle, whatever. By the by you can kick somebody in the head pretty hard without breaking the skull...So yeah, I guess thats it. Krav-Maga or Aikido (if you've done it for a while).

[zombienerd]

I am wondering what you guys think about martial arts as a defense against zombies. I practice both Judo and Jiu-jitsu and I think these would be the most effective. These two disciplines teach techniques for a smaller and weaker person to subdue a heavier one, including chokes, limb breakage, throws, but no striking. I think striking would not work, BUT chokes, breaking a zombies neck, legs and arms, and throwing them with ease (technique) would prove valuable if only dealing with one or a few slow ones. Some of the submission holds would even work for just holding the zombie until helps arrives.

So, 1. what do you guys think of the above, and,

2. I am wondering if it is possible to choke a zombie. Yeah yeah, "but zombies are dead..." but there has to be some brain function, right? Their need to feed, their senses and coordination required for walking mostly comes from the brain so for the brain to function, shouldn't there be a connection from the brain to the body that can be interrupted? Chokes are just that, disconnecting activity between the brain and other organs that the brain needs to function. Choking = temporary incapacitation and eventual brain destruction.

[kiltedninja]

IMO, I'd think that if you're in the situation where you can choke a zombie, break it's neck.
Judo and Jujitsu would be great, except that they don't teach much in the way of striking. Why get into a grapple with a zombie, when you can simply stomp out it's knee and leave? that's why I say Krav Maga, In my class, we're told to wear street clothes, to get used to fighting in our normal attire.
If you're surrounded by multiple zombies, there is methods of throwing them about to escape, it's all about your defense, if you're going in to fight Zack bare handed, then you're F**ked, now if you'd dropped your weapon when you got blindsided by one, that's a different story.

[Bob]

The techniques should all be about keeping the maximum distance from a Zombies primary weapon, their mouth.

Remember in conventional martial arts you can heal.
You do not heal from a zombie bite.

Break his legs not his neck.

A dragger is less dangerous than a shambler except perhaps for the trip hazard.

[Redfields]

I would think the RLH(run like hell) fighting style would be extremely effective in keeping alive that little longer. If you got enough energy to fight a zombie, use that energy to run.

But back onto the point, I would think that Muay-Thai would not be bad against these zombies if you dont mind the risk of getting chomped by engaging in non-weaponed combat. It is because of the kicks and the stance. With the TS's opinion on Judo, I sort of disagree because of the style that you would do take-downs in. It sometimes requires slamming when grappled where the zombie would MOST likely have bitten you.

IMO handed combat with zeds is a NO-NO

But, yes that is my opinion, Muay-Thai Kickboxing

P.S I agree with kiltedninja's view on this. Break its knee and run. Too bad I am not trained in Krav Maga.

[JimiVengeance]

im not experienced in hand to hand combat...so in this situation i push the z away and then run like a little bitch til im able to find a way to blast em haha:drinking:

[kiltedninja]

The techniques should all be about keeping the maximum distance from a Zombies primary weapon, their mouth.

Remember in conventional martial arts you can heal.
You do not heal from a zombie bite.

Break his legs not his neck.

A dragger is less dangerous than a shambler except perhaps for the trip hazard.

Amen to that mate. A dragger is also open to a good stomp on it's skull.

[the_velociraptor]

...As in, instead of bite-resistant whatever, you're caught with clothes that could be easily be bitten through.

What shifts in tactics would occur, besides an extreme amount of caution in CQC and "lol find new clothes"?

[Deadman83]

My one and only plan for defeating a Zombie pack or two would be to run as fast as I could to get distance then if cornered without a weapon,I'd improv with a rock or something I could use for a club and just go town bashing skulls in unless bitten,in that case I would just be more of a danger to any surrounding enemies.

Because if you're bitten it's bye-bye anyway so why avoid the Kamakazi route.

[Deadman83]

I would use the D.F.B. technique (Dirty Fighting Bastard).

[kiltedninja]

DFB is street fighting, and we're not trying to get into scraps with Zack, he's mean and bites people. If I was unarmed, and cornered by enough Zombies that there's a possibility that I'll escape, then I'd just use a push kick, knock them, and get out.
A good push kick is enough to knock even a well balanced person over. If I'm just unarmed, I'm going to leave.

[kiltedninja]

Digging up an old topic yet again, I saw something interesting about a week ago. A friend of mine who was a professional Muay Thai fighter in Thailand from the ages of 14-16 showed me that he can kick through a piece of (roughly)3 inch thick bamboo with his shin.

So, the point I'm getting at is that our bones are as open to being broken by the strikes that we throw as well, unless we've conditioned our bones to such torture as these fighters. Kyokushin Karate is another one that can break insanely hard objects with their strikes.

I'm not saying I'm an expert on all martial arts, but I'd like to do a little analysis of the ones most popular in America.

TKD:
Pros: Certain strikes like the push kick and side kick can knock back enemies, at master levels, extremely dangerous.

Cons: Strikes with top of foot and the balls of feet, not good places to strike with. No training in throws/grappling.

Karate:
Pros: Again, Certain strikes can create distance and damage if used correctly. Mastery of this art ensures that you can break about anything(I broke 4 ceramic tiles at ten years old).

Cons: Strikes are usually centered towards body, low line kicks aren't used, and you fight how you train, so that creates a problem. No training in grappling.

Western Style Boxing: Pros: Teaches good movement, and can create a good sense of range, good against living targets.

Cons: Strikes with the fist to the hard head of a human can cause broken hands and cuts on the knuckles, no training in use of legs, but its fun.

Kung Fu:
Pros:I'm not too sure about this one, since I've done relatively little, (I trained for about a month), but the way strikes are delivered can be both powerful and fast, as well as precise to a point at higher levels.

Cons: Being unfamiliar with it, the only one I can see is that Kung fu styles tend to be quite flashy, and if you're not a master, it can be difficult to strike quick and hard enough to break joints.

Judo:
Pros: Teaches Grappling and joint locks, which can be used to break the joints of Zack. Many Judo schools emphasize you staying on your feet while you toss your enemy about.

Cons: Very little striking, if any. Grappling with Zack seems like a bad idea unless you're really good.

Jujutsu(traditional):
Pros: Teaches movement, grappling, weapons usage, and more often than not, is very similar and more brutal than Judo.

Cons: Same as Judo.

BJJ:
Pros: Teaches grappling and painful joint locks, nuff said.

Cons:Mostly ground fighting, designed for use against enemies who are going to wrestle back, not try to gnaw the closes limb off.

Aikido:
Pros: A very different type of tossing your enemy about than the previous three, in my thirteen months of practice, I very rarely had my head anywhere near my opponents. Teaches weapons, schools often teach Iaido and Kendo as well, I loved training in Aikido.

Cons: Unarmed striking is not taught in aikido.

Kempo:
Pros:Very dirty and brutal fighting, teaches striking, joint control, weapons, movement, and often in a very unconventional and functional way.

Cons: This style was created before firearms were really a worry for people, and as such, doesn't have a defence for them generally.

Krav Maga:
Pros: Oh, this style is just lovely, if by lovely you mean dangerous, brutal and bloody, then it's the most beautiful thing ever. Teaches the most efficient style of unarmed AND armed defence/offence that I've ever seen or partaken of.

Cons: I'll let you know when I find one.

Ninjutsu:
Pros: Ninjutsu's H2H system is kempo, and various weapons, it teaches ukemi(falling), and a god damn million different types of weapons, as well as some empty hand fighting. I have a friend who's a black belt in it.

Cons: Most of the weapons are exotic and rather pointless in a ZPAW situation.

Muay Thai:
Pros: Brutally effective striking if you know where to hit. There's usually some form of physical conditioning involved. Teaches some take downs. Requires strength and flexibility, which are useful elsewhere.

Cons: I dunno about you, but I don't want to be close enough to Zack to knee and elbow him in the face, I'd rather just use a kick to knock it over, and stomp on its head.

Any that I missed, or have some other comments? Go ahead and say so. I've practiced almost all of these more than a little, Kung fu and TKD are the ones I've practiced the least of.

[mattifikation]

Against a dumb, uncoordinated, and shambling zombie with little or no reaction time, I actually think the powerful kicks in Tae Kwon Do could really shine. You can put a lot of distance between yourself and a zombie with a high-powered kick. It all depends on how quickly the zeds can snatch a leg out of the air.

I never had any problem using the ball of my foot as the striking point. That's only with some kicks anyways. Other kicks use different parts of the foot. Also, I learned some throws, joint locks, and grappling in TKD although it wasn't a big focus. I think that just comes down to whether you're in a "self defense" TKD class or a "sporting" TKD class.

I still wouldn't want to try it on the street in a real fight, though.

[kiltedninja]

You probably had a more defence oriented teacher then. The class I was in, which supposedly turns out some of the best black belts in the world, never taught anyone about that. And I kicked the shit out of their 'best black belt' my first sparring match, because in Kempo we were taught to strike differently.

The example with hitting with the ball of the foot, I was referring to the push kick, in which almost every other martial art strikes with the heel.

I said that the kicks of TKD can do damage, but only if used properly, like any other strike or tool.

[Bob]

You know I have posted some incredible wisdom in some of these threads.
They should pay me for posting here.

[kiltedninja]

I pay attention to your wisdom Bob, I usually have similar insight.

[Patrickwontsurvive]

I would just hit them hard. They arent people and they arent doing to try and block or hit/ kick back so why treat them like they would? Just stay far enough away to not get grabbed and knock them over or take their legs out so they cant follow (very fast)

[SWAT Zombie]

i think any martial arts worth a damn would be effective. not all people try to block your attacks. some, like zombies, will just try to tackle you or drag you to the ground. and as far as taking on multiple zombies, check out some of steven seagals old training footage. his black belt tests involved three people trying to tackle you to the floor. any real martial arts should train to defend against that sort of thing. but that's kind of advanced, so i'd start straight away for any who haven't but want to. people also try to bite at times and good grappling techniques should be able to prevent that, after all biting is another form of attack to defend against. imo too many martial arts schools over emphasize sparring, ie competition boxing and kickboxing, instead of good self defense techniques. you need to be able to use your training against someone who boxes, kickboxes, grapples, flails drunkenly or just goes nuts and tries to maul you tooth and claw. as bruce lee said, use whats effective, discard what isn't. he drew from many different fighting styles and used what was effective for him. thats the real challenge with martial arts, finding what works for your body type and personality. and then training your guts out to get good.
as far as pain goes, i don't think too much reliance on causing your attacker pain is very good anyway. people on drugs can take pain and some people just have a high threshold. taking control of them, putting them in a position where they can't attack and finishing them off is what my experience in martial arts has shown me works best. when a zombie reaches for you there are techniques that will allow you to take control of their arms and lock them up in a way that keeps them from biting, clawing or whatever else, then you'll need a good neck break or solid head crushing strike if you're capable(away from the mouth, but then again thats something else i've learned, don't punch to the mouth, teeth can cut). and for multiple zombies, there are techniques that take control of one and maneuver them into the path of the others, causing them to trip over each other.
but to be able to pull off any effective martial arts techniques against any opponent takes hard, realistic training and a tough, strong mind.
and i agree tho on krav maga, from what i've seen, i've found no cons with that. those guys are the shiz-nit!!!

[angekfire]

Krav Maga would be the best right out of the gate. It teaches you everything you need to know to escape any situation unharmed, including when you're outnumbered, which would be one of the most important skills with zombies everywhere.

Tae-Kwon-Do's kicks, a boxer's punches, and Muay Thai knee strikes are powerful enough to at the very least cause a concussion in a live human, a concussion strength should be enough to at least temporarily stun a zombie while you can escape, grab a weapon, or head stomp. I would say one of those 3 would be the next best thing to Krav Maga. You don't really want to have to grapple with a zed.

[kiltedninja]

Krav Maga would be the best right out of the gate. It teaches you everything you need to know to escape any situation unharmed, including when you're outnumbered, which would be one of the most important skills with zombies everywhere.

Tae-Kwon-Do's kicks, a boxer's punches, and Muay Thai knee strikes are powerful enough to at the very least cause a concussion in a live human, a concussion strength should be enough to at least temporarily stun a zombie while you can escape, grab a weapon, or head stomp. I would say one of those 3 would be the next best thing to Krav Maga. You don't really want to have to grapple with a zed.

I've done both TKD and boxing, and I'm currently doing Muay Thai, and Muay Thai is alot more streamlined and effective than TKD, the boxing aspect of it is about the same, but Muay thai's kicks are far more powerful than TKD's kicks. And we learn alot of the same boxing drills as regular boxing.

[angekfire]

I remember seeing a documentary on the power of different martial arts. A boxer had the strongest punch out of them all, with enough force to give someone a concussion.

I then remember for kicks, Tae-Kwon-Do came second in power (way above a boxer's punch), but was still waaaay behind Muay Thai, which a knee from Muay Thai was the equivalent of the impact from a car crash (I forget the speed of the collision).

I think Muay Thai is largely much closer for combat though, focusing more on elbows and knees (not 100% sure as I've never done it) and Tae-Kwon-Do has a lot of longer ranged kicks that are still powerful enough to deal some serious damage to a zombie skull.

I don't think Krav Maga was in that documentary, but Ninjutsu had Dim-Mak which made it the single most destructive martial art. However, that wouldn't do a damn thing to a zed.

[kiltedninja]

I remember seeing a documentary on the power of different martial arts. A boxer had the strongest punch out of them all, with enough force to give someone a concussion.

I then remember for kicks, Tae-Kwon-Do came second in power (way above a boxer's punch), but was still waaaay behind Muay Thai, which a knee from Muay Thai was the equivalent of the impact from a car crash (I forget the speed of the collision).

I think Muay Thai is largely much closer for combat though, focusing more on elbows and knees (not 100% sure as I've never done it) and Tae-Kwon-Do has a lot of longer ranged kicks that are still powerful enough to deal some serious damage to a zombie skull.

I don't think Krav Maga was in that documentary, but Ninjutsu had Dim-Mak which made it the single most destructive martial art. However, that wouldn't do a damn thing to a zed.

Most of the kicks for long range in the TKD arsenal are really flashy, but hard to do, and very ineffective.

I know about those knees, I caught one last week that put me on the ground, my instructor was trying to demonstrate something and went a little bit too fast and hit me. I've been hit with baseball bats and that knee was still the most painful thing I've ever felt.

Muay Thai's focus isn't on the elbows and knees, it's called 'The Science of the Eight Limbs' because of the use of eight points of impact, our fists, elbows, knees and shins. We strike with whatever we need to strike with when we need to strike. The art itself came from two style, Muay Boran and Krabi Krabong, Muay Boran means ancient boxing and is a generic term much like kung fu. Krabi Krabong is a weapons based art, utilizing swords as well as the eight limbs principle.

TKD, contrary to what they like to tell people is a post-reformation art, much like judo and aikido, it comes from two martial arts as well, Taekkyon and Karate. When the korean people were reforming after the Korean war, the government wanted them to have a martial art, but something 'softer' than the original battlefield arts. An old practitioner of Taekkyon and a karate master took bits of things from each other and taekwondo was born. The Pinan forms of Karate are also that way. If you know where to look, and you know some stuff about the Ryukyuan people you can see where the changes were made, if you know the Heian forms as well.

One that's often overlooked when it comes to these kinds of discussions is Kempo. It's also kind of born from another art, when chinese monks were in Japan they taught mountain farmers and monks their chinese boxing and the Japanese adapted that.

If you're really looking into a practical art, go for Kempo, Krav Maga, or if you're willing to invest a lot of time, Muay Thai.

[SWAT Zombie]

ryukyu kempo is one of the best i've personally come across. i trained at a school that practiced mainly kempo with some jujitsu and philipino stick fighting. i was impressed with this school's realistic training and effective techniques. you don't have to be strong or athletic to do the techniques (but it never hurts to be fit). it is especially good for women. other schools i'd been to that required a certain amount of physicality to pull off the techniques the women often struggled with it. i'm a big guy and my instructor at that school had no trouble using what he taught on me but he was quite a powerfully built guy. smaller men and women would often struggle to effectively use the techniques on me, no matter how long they'd trained. in fact, one girl was practicing an armlock and was struggling to get a reaction from me. i told her to go harder if she liked but she said she was going as hard as she could and it was actually hurting her to do it. but at ryukyu kempo even the women could effectively apply the techniques we learnt against me. it took alot of hard work for them to get the techniques right, but any effective hand to hand training will take some practice before you get good. it was a great school because of the diversity of techniques on offer for different shaped and sized people.
just a side note, kempo actually evolved from the chinese styles in Okinawa, the Japanese actually got Karate from the Okinawans. ryukyu kempo is their term for Okinawan kungfu as kempo is another word for kungfu and ryukyu refers to the Ryukyu islands of which Okinawa is one. also the original moves in kempo were short punches and kicks that targeted pressure points. the okinawans only taught the japanese their kata but not the true applications of the moves, so because they didn't learn the proper pressure point applications of the kicks, punches and grapples, they developed the extended punches and long thrusting kicks because without knowing where to place these strikes the short, fast moves were not effective enough. and alot of the moves which the japanese interpreted as blocks were in fact grappling moves. the fist being drawn back to the hip during a punch or "block" in karate is actually a grappling move where you are pulling the opponent into you as you strike, increasing the impact of the move.
If you're really looking into a practical art, go for Kempo, Krav Maga, or if you're willing to invest a lot of time, Muay Thai.

i'd agree whole heartedly with that. :drinking:

[Noc]

I've done both TKD and boxing, and I'm currently doing Muay Thai, and Muay Thai is alot more streamlined and effective than TKD, the boxing aspect of it is about the same, but Muay thai's kicks are far more powerful than TKD's kicks. And we learn alot of the same boxing drills as regular boxing.

Yeah I just done a little TKD and didn't really care for it. It neglects the hands, and like you said the kicks aren't as practical as they are in Muay Thai.

Although I think boxing develops better hands than Muay Thai, just because 100% of boxing is focused on the hands.

[Nopkar]

I guess Muay Thai would work really really well. I have a little experience in wrestling (brothers a navy seal >.>) and so I've learned that a persons head is super maneuverable...with that said, grab a handful of zed hair, yank, pull whatever you need to do, get it on its stomach, put that knee to the back of the neck and slam it down, zed ded eh?

I'm voting for the quick, dirty and down right personal for my zedjitsu. it might not be that SMART but by damn if it's a must, you might as well right?

*edit* quick, very rounded math: It could take anywhere from 16-873N to crush a skull right? (yes this is a HUGE gap, but the skull isn't uniform now is it?) a smaller person, 160lbs or so, has over 1600N falling just a foot...the knee drop, perfect ^.^ I'm sure with me being a pretty hefty guy I could deliver that much with my elbow to a temple or even the base of the skull.

[kiltedninja]

Precision is key with elbows. And a temple shot isn't always a guarantee, I've hit people in the temple with an elbow and it's not even a guaranteed knockout. I can take shots to my temple and still come back swinging.

To Noc:
I did about 6 months of boxing, and it gives me a big advantage over the other people in my gym.

[SWAT Zombie]

boxing may be fairly limited as a fighting style by itself but it makes a very good supplement when training in multiple styles. i've been on the business end of a series of thunderous punches when training with someone from a boxing background. also you might find alot of boxings training drills have been incorporated into other styles of fighting and it is excellent for cardiovascular improvement. its also relatively simple to learn so its great for someone who wants to learn some quick fighting moves. it may only concentrate on the torso and head by itself but combined with leg and grappling training it can be devastating. the other thing about boxing is how hard the average boxer is trained. i've seen some ridiculously soft training methods from some so called martial arts schools i've looked at, and alot of schools do way too much non contact training. but boxing gyms don't seem to muck about from what i've seen and heard. if you wanna box, be prepared for some pain. if you last it will harden you up pretty quick smart and at the very least you'll be in some pretty damn good shape to handle yourself amongst zombies, even if its just having the physical stamina to run like hell.

[kiltedninja]

That's about the size of it for boxing. I don't expect to be breaking bones with my punches(A jaw maybe, but nothing life threatening), I'd use H2H only if it was an absolute must, and I'd likely be doing it to run away.

[angekfire]

i trained at a school that practiced mainly kempo with some jujitsu and philipino stick fighting.

Eskrima? I want to actually study some of that. I am doing a bit of chinese stick fighting with my twin chinese broadsword training. They use many of the same movements & techniques.

And I have to wholeheartedly agree that TKD is largely useless in practicality. As a kid, it was good because it gave me a good mindset to learn other martial arts quickly.

Boxing is limiting, definitely, but there is also kickboxing if you want to branch out. It definitely makes for a good supplement though, even if just for the conditioning.

[Onslaught]

I guess Muay Thai would work really really well. I have a little experience in wrestling (brothers a navy seal >.>) and so I've learned that a persons head is super maneuverable...with that said, grab a handful of zed hair, yank, pull whatever you need to do, get it on its stomach, put that knee to the back of the neck and slam it down, zed ded eh?

I'm voting for the quick, dirty and down right personal for my zedjitsu. it might not be that SMART but by damn if it's a must, you might as well right?

*edit* quick, very rounded math: It could take anywhere from 16-873N to crush a skull right? (yes this is a HUGE gap, but the skull isn't uniform now is it?) a smaller person, 160lbs or so, has over 1600N falling just a foot...the knee drop, perfect ^.^ I'm sure with me being a pretty hefty guy I could deliver that much with my elbow to a temple or even the base of the skull.

One problem I see with attempting to break zombie bones with your body is the risk of a compound fracture on their part, and infection on your part.

I have a quick question. When I was wrestling I learned very quickly that the pelvis is the source of all movement. Yes, where the head goes, the body must eventually follow, but if you control a man's hips, he isn't going anywhere. And a zombie's head is where the bitey parts are. So, if you were in a hand to hand survival/defense situation against a lone zombie, (let's say you've taken out six of his mates and your revolver is empty) would it be a better bet to kick to the chest or the pelvis? The intent is to put him on the ground quickly. (Let's say you don't want to get tangled in his arms and we're disregarding the knee as a target, just for the challenge of it.)

[SWAT Zombie]

i think bruce lee's philosophy of do whats effective and discard what isn't applies. why go to the chest or pelvis when a kick to the knee is quicker, takes less effort and will take away a major support base from your opponent. if you try to make any fight more challenging, against a zombie, a cage fighter, a drunken pub yobbo or even a 90 pound weakling (he may look weak, but who knows what he's really capable of), you're looking for trouble. mucking about in a fight will get you hurt or worse.
ok, now that i'm done preaching :) i'd say if you can smash the pelvis it will likely be more effective at putting them to the ground and keeping them there. since breaking ribs or damaging internal organs isn't really gonna effect a zombie, damaging them structurally would work better and a smashed hip will make it harder to hold up the rest of the body. also a kick to the chest, even if you do damage may not keep them down. i guess tho it depends on how much damage you do. this has all really been guess work for me because my personal style of fighting has always been to keep kicks low. the higher the kick the more energy and time it takes and the more unstable your balance becomes (another pro for targeting the hip as opposed to the chest). also if someone catches your leg they can put you down quite easily. if they catch your arm you have a better chance of escaping and haven't lost your support base.
but for an untrained person who may not have the accuracy or power to break bones, i think a solid boot to the chest or gut might be better to knock them down or even just away from you.

[Onslaught]

i think bruce lee's philosophy of do whats effective and discard what isn't applies. why go to the chest or pelvis when a kick to the knee is quicker, takes less effort and will take away a major support base from your opponent. if you try to make any fight more challenging, against a zombie, a cage fighter, a drunken pub yobbo or even a 90 pound weakling (he may look weak, but who knows what he's really capable of), you're looking for trouble. mucking about in a fight will get you hurt or worse.
ok, now that i'm done preaching :) i'd say if you can smash the pelvis it will likely be more effective at putting them to the ground and keeping them there. since breaking ribs or damaging internal organs isn't really gonna effect a zombie, damaging them structurally would work better and a smashed hip will make it harder to hold up the rest of the body. also a kick to the chest, even if you do damage may not keep them down. i guess tho it depends on how much damage you do. this has all really been guess work for me because my personal style of fighting has always been to keep kicks low. the higher the kick the more energy and time it takes and the more unstable your balance becomes (another pro for targeting the hip as opposed to the chest). also if someone catches your leg they can put you down quite easily. if they catch your arm you have a better chance of escaping and haven't lost your support base.
but for an untrained person who may not have the accuracy or power to break bones, i think a solid boot to the chest or gut might be better to knock them down or even just away from you.

The challenge comment was for the sake of argument, not intended as a way to make an actual encounter more challenging. I just didn't want 9000 replies of, "kick the knee".

I'm also not concerned with doing structural damage with a kick. I'm really more interested in whether or not people think that kicking the pelvis, even though it's lower and therefore takes away some of the leverage, might be a better alternative to a sternum kick. The zombie is trying to maintain balance by keeping it's shoulders above it's hips above it's feet. The more you mess with that alignment, the less balanced the zombie becomes. A kick to the chest would seem to have the most effect because that is the level furthest from the ground and therefore you have leverage working on your side. But I wonder what happens when you move the middle section instead. Will the zombie fold in half, bringing it's head toward you, or will the legs and shoulders follow suit and be forced backward?

[SWAT Zombie]

i think you're right. if you're just talking about a knockdown then i'd say a kick to the chest would be better. i think a pelvis/midsection kick might not stop the zombies forward momentum as much, but i do think it would cause the head to come forward and potentially be in a position for you to attack. but it would also create a greater bite hazard as well. so for a straight knockdown, chest, but to set it up for a quick head smash, pelvis.
the other thing tho about a pelvis kick, because it might cause the torso to fold forward it could allow the zombie to use its hands to stabilise itself, allowing it to recover quickly. a chest kick would (hopefully) cause it to fall on its back and take it longer to recover. so i guess both have their pros and cons. really just depends on what you plan to do after you've knocked it down

[J Dub]

looks like some have a grasp on self defense, good job:)

but as to the op. any technique that would keep the zeds from grasping or holding you would be preferable to grappling styles.

one bite or scratch and you're fooked. aerial styles would imo be more in keeping them at a distance, judo or jujitsu just offers too many opportunity's for a bad outcome whether it be from bite, scratch or spit/fluids.

the number one priority on zed day would be self defense and nothing is better than a hand full of dynamite (i'm talking 1911 in .45acp naturally) :evil:

[mattifikation]

You could kick it in the hips from the side, and it wouldn't double forward to bite you. Honestly though, 9,000 swipes to the knees is probably the safest bet. :lol: