One Pistol or Small Side Arm

[TastyRidesAgain]

Wow, 67 pages and not one mention of the venerable Makarov pistol. I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in with this (somebody's gotta represent!):
http://www.a-human-right.com/makarov.jpg
One of the most durable, reliable, accurate military sidearms ever produced. I've owned several. It's not glitzy or flashy. It just works. Every time.

[CAVU45]

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/170269a_lrg.jpg

8-shot, 357 revolver. You can drop moon clips right into the wheel for fast reloading, or reload one bullet at a time. I'm a strong believer that at least one of your guns shouldn't require removable magazines or clips.

Looks like one of Jerry Miculeks' guns.

[CAVU45]

Makarov? Accurate? I've heard many things about the makarov, but accuracy wasn't one of those mentioned.

[J Dub]

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/170269a_lrg.jpg

8-shot, 357 revolver. You can drop moon clips right into the wheel for fast reloading, or reload one bullet at a time. I'm a strong believer that at least one of your guns shouldn't require removable magazines or clips.
i think that there is the .45acp version, moon clips are a must with this round.

can't go wrong with the .45acp 230gr fmj. i'd keep it as intended though, in my 1911 norc or my glock 21sf.

of the two, i'll take the glock 21. its more accurate, easier to breakdown and is a safer gun to boot :evil:


eta. here's some brass flying fun with the 21
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj123/jonwaite/photography%20kind%20of/rangeday007002.jpg

[TastyRidesAgain]

Makarov? Accurate? I've heard many things about the makarov, but accuracy wasn't one of those mentioned.

The fine sights, all-steel heft, and fixed barrel design make the Mak very accurate. In fact I've never actually seen a Makarov's accuracy taken into question in any impartial forum. The 1911 nuts hate them. But then again the 1911 nuts hate anything that's NOT 1911.

[CAVU45]

The fine sights, all-steel heft, and fixed barrel design make the Mak very accurate. In fact I've never actually seen a Makarov's accuracy taken into question in any impartial forum. The 1911 nuts hate them. But then again the 1911 nuts hate anything that's NOT 1911.

I consider myself a 1911 "nut". Hate Maks? Naw. It's a pocket pistol. Rather heavy one at that. I'm sure it's accurate enough for what it is. But I would stop short of calling it one of the most accurate military sidearms of all time. I don't know what you call an "impartial" forum, but I have seen the Mak's accuracy questioned on a few. That being said, it is a decent little pistol, especially as a back-up or for concealed carry.

[kiltedninja]

I was going to actually say something about the Makarov. I have a friend who owns one, and it's fun. I never had any accuracy problems. Not as accurate as my 1911, but I still want one.

The Spetsnaz operative on Deadliest warrior outshot that Green Beret who was using an M9. God damn I wanted to kick that dumbass in the face. Using quotes from movies to try and sound cool, and he failed on an epic scale.

[TastyRidesAgain]

I was going to actually say something about the Makarov. I have a friend who owns one, and it's fun. I never had any accuracy problems. Not as accurate as my 1911, but I still want one.

The Spetsnaz operative on Deadliest warrior outshot that Green Beret who was using an M9. God damn I wanted to kick that dumbass in the face. Using quotes from movies to try and sound cool, and he failed on an epic scale.

Yeah, I saw that ep. Ouch to the GB that missed a shot at point-blank range. I bet he got some major ribbing for losing to a "commie".

[kiltedninja]

Yeah, I saw that ep. Ouch to the GB that missed a shot at point-blank range. I bet he got some major ribbing for losing to a "commie".

I like how right at the beginning, The Spetsnaz just flipped the bird to the GB's and was smiling. He talked so much shit.

But anyway, it seemed to be a fairly solid pistol, mag capacity left something to be desired though. Same with the 1911, it could be argued.

[TastyRidesAgain]

I like how right at the beginning, The Spetsnaz just flipped the bird to the GB's and was smiling. He talked so much shit.

But anyway, it seemed to be a fairly solid pistol, mag capacity left something to be desired though. Same with the 1911, it could be argued.

Most everything was 8 rounds or less before the age of the high-capacity "wonder nines".

Of course I don't know if I could get off more than 8 aimed shots at handgun range at a horde of undead shambling toward me, before one of them got close enough to bite me in the face! Better off to drop a few at a time, and reload on the run. High-capacity doesn't matter as much then, imo.

[kiltedninja]

I'm not gonna stand and pop at 'em though. I'd pop a couple off, and then run, pop another few off, rinse and repeat.

[TastyRidesAgain]

I'm not gonna stand and pop at 'em though. I'd pop a couple off, and then run, pop another few off, rinse and repeat.

Exactly what I was thinking. It always seems to be the guy who just stands there and keeps shooting who's the one to get eviscerated.

[hotlead]

I consider myself a 1911 "nut". Hate Maks? Naw. It's a pocket pistol. Rather heavy one at that. I'm sure it's accurate enough for what it is. But I would stop short of calling it one of the most accurate military sidearms of all time. I don't know what you call an "impartial" forum, but I have seen the Mak's accuracy questioned on a few. That being said, it is a decent little pistol, especially as a back-up or for concealed carry.

+1 to all above, Mrs. Hotlead and I are 1911 nuts too, but every tool has it's job. And the job for Commie pistols and revolvers, it seems, is to execute fellow zombie commie conscripts for not working hard enough, fighting hard enough, or retreating when certain death and defeat is in front of them. Commie handguns are small, low powered, have poor sights, and low capacity, leading me to believe they're for shooting zombies in the head or back at close range. It could just be my bias against commies, though.

From what I've read and heard, one of the most accurate combat handguns was the Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver. It was never official issue to the Brits, but plenty were bought and used in Africa and WWI, even on the unit level. There was a version made to take moon clips, and there were .38-200s. The guy who won gold in the 1908 Olympics and silver the 1912 Olympics was shooting a Webley-Fosbery in .455.

[J Dub]

But then again the 1911 nuts hate anything that's NOT 1911.

not true. if it shoots .45acp chances are good i'll like it :)

[CAVU45]

not true. if it shoots .45acp chances are good i'll like it :)

There it is!! I like my Taurus PT945 just fine. There's just something about a full size auto pistol slamming out that big ol' flying ashtray...And while you may want to believe we're compensating for a shortage in a certain department, understand we're actually bragging. We 1911 "nuts" aren't known for our humility. We're actually a rather magnanimous lot.

[Bob]

Well speaking as a Glock Guy it's hard to beat 45acp.
I only have 4 45's but they are a pretty good representation.
1-1911
1-Glock 21
1-Sig 220
1-Ingram

[kiltedninja]

Bob, I think you should lay all your firearms out on a tarp, and take a picture of your entire arsenal.

[Bob]

I can't.
The M1A is completely stripped so I can send the receiver to Springfield to install a National Match sight, (for this receiver it is not a drop in)
One of the Saigas is in Atlanta getting custom work done.
Two of the 870's are in pieces being waiting on me to quit being lazy and get them ready for refinishing.
One of the 1100s is in Charlotte being re-blued.
Perhaps by the first of the year they will all be here.

[kiltedninja]

I didn't say now, I just meant eventually.

That would be some serious gun porn.

[Bob]

I made an offer on a Colt AR last night.
I should know soon if the collection is going to have a new member.

[hotlead]

Hotleads' new pick for the "one small pistol or side arm" deal, though, I think it leans closer to the "side arm" than the "one small pistol". A Springfield Armory trophy match I picked up recently, It'll be a while before I can shoot to the level this pistol is capable of......

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/hotlead_photos/IMG_0987.jpg

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/hotlead_photos/IMG_0995.jpg

[Bob]

Very Very nice.
I cut my teeth on a 1911.

I like the flat mainspring housing.
The only thing I would do to it would be an extended slide release.
(I like them and put them on about everything)

Do you hand load?

[homelitexl]

ill tkae a chainsaw anyday

[hotlead]

Very Very nice.
I cut my teeth on a 1911.

I like the flat mainspring housing.
The only thing I would do to it would be an extended slide release.
(I like them and put them on about everything)

Do you hand load?

A 1941 Colt USGI M1911A1 was the first pistol I ever bought, I picked it up 10 days after my 21st birthday, and 1911s are the only pistols I've ever done papers on since. I'm not against other pistols, it's just that when it came time to put my money on the counter, there was always a 1911 of some sort giving me puppy dog eyes, and the others just sat on the shelf not doing a thing. I heard today that S&W came out with a scaled down 1911 that chambers .380, that would be a pretty cool little pistol.

I don't handload yet, but I'm anxious to get started, I've picked up a lot of stuff, two single stage presses, compnents for three of my favorites, scales, powder measures, and other stuff, but just one set of dies so far. After some more stuff comes my way, I'll be looking to get started, I'll just need to find some one who knows what they're doin' to look over my shoulder the first few times.

[Bob]

Kool.
I never got the 1911 bug, I was always into variety, that's why I have so many different things.
When I was a young guy most of my relationships with women would last about a month.
I would get my fill of them and move on to the next one.
Guns were about the same.

[hotlead]

For some reason, and I didn't realize the connection untill well after I got into this stuff, John M. Browning and John C. Garand designed arms have always attracted me. It's weird I know, but before I ever heard of either of those guys, my safe had mostly rifle, shotgun, and pistol designs from those two in it.

I'm sure it's not hard for most folks to trace some of the guns they have back to John Browning, and I'm a real traditional guy, with a heavy bias towards American anything.

So, out of sheer genius and ingenuity came a Mormon and a Canadian that gave American servicemen, Lawmen, and sportsmen some of the best arms in history.

[Bob]

It's hard to argue with success.
Adopted in 1911 and still being manufactured today by more companies than ever.

[J Dub]

thats a sweet springer you picked up bud. bob is going to be my go to guy when i start hand loading .45. (if i'm lucky)

hey i'm an American trapped behind the lines. :lol:

but i will escape this socialist mecca and be among you one day.

[homelitexl]

a 45 revovler would be great

[Bob]

ACP or Long Colt?

[Bob]

I like jacketed bullets from these guys.
http://www.precisiondelta.com/products_new.htm

Lead bullets from these guys.
http://www.missouribullet.com

[mattifikation]

I think those Taurus Judge revolvers are pretty sweet. They'll take either .410 shot shells or .45LC rounds. I've read that they're short range guns though.

[CAVU45]

They are. Short range defensive revelovers with the .410 shell. Obviously the .45lc will reach out farther. Still damned nice gun though.

[TastyRidesAgain]

+1 to all above, Mrs. Hotlead and I are 1911 nuts too, but every tool has it's job. And the job for Commie pistols and revolvers, it seems, is to execute fellow zombie commie conscripts for not working hard enough, fighting hard enough, or retreating when certain death and defeat is in front of them. Commie handguns are small, low powered, have poor sights, and low capacity, leading me to believe they're for shooting zombies in the head or back at close range. It could just be my bias against commies, though..

And there it is. Perfect example of the unfounded hatred of "commie" guns. Thank you hotlead. Here are some friendly counterpoints:
Small? Yeah, maybe. but there's alot to be said of a gun that can be easily concealed. Low powered? The 7.62x25 was anything but low powered. In fact, I believe it was at least as powerful as the .45ACP. Even the 9x18 Mak has more than enough power to drill an exhaust hole straight through an undead's rotted melon (and that is what we're here to discuss, isn't it?). Poor sights? Well some maybe, but the Makarov has "fine" sights. Maybe small and thin, but better for accurate zombie headshots, IMO, and less likely to snag in a pocket. Low capacity? How many rounds did the 1911 hold, like 7? The TT-33 held 8, as does the Mak.

[TastyRidesAgain]

I think those Taurus Judge revolvers are pretty sweet. They'll take either .410 shot shells or .45LC rounds. I've read that they're short range guns though.

The Box o' Truth guys did a review of the Judge:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
Their review was less than favorable for the .140 as a defensive round, though it did work very well on snake-sized objects. A load of buck at close range might be enough to ruin a zombie's day, and a load of birdshot at that distance would certainly blind it.

[hotlead]

And there it is. Perfect example of the unfounded hatred of "commie" guns. Thank you hotlead. Here are some friendly counterpoints:
Small? Yeah, maybe. but there's alot to be said of a gun that can be easily concealed. Low powered? The 7.62x25 was anything but low powered. In fact, I believe it was at least as powerful as the .45ACP. Even the 9x18 Mak has more than enough power to drill an exhaust hole straight through an undead's rotted melon (and that is what we're here to discuss, isn't it?). Poor sights? Well some maybe, but the Makarov has "fine" sights. Maybe small and thin, but better for accurate zombie headshots, IMO, and less likely to snag in a pocket. Low capacity? How many rounds did the 1911 hold, like 7? The TT-33 held 8, as does the Mak.

No sense of humor, eh?.......wait a minute, it's my fault, I didn't put a smiley-face guy at the end of my post indicating sarcastic satire, no wonder you're all excited.

I think "unfounded hatred" is not the right phrase in this instance, "educated through first hand experience and research" would fit better. I have an SKS, three M-44s and a MN-91/30, I had an SVT-40, a Nagant revolver, and a T-33 with the saftey added for import. Which of these have you owned and fired?

S&B product ballistics,
7.62x25, 85gr FMJ; muzzle= 1,647fps, 511ft lbs, 50yds= 1,311fps, 323ft lbs

G&A handgun ballistics charts
.45acp, 230gr FMJ; muzzle= 880fps, 401ft lbs, 50yds= 835fps, 358ft lbs

9mm, 124gr FMJ; muzzle= 1,110fps, 341ft lbs, 50yds= 1,030fps, 280ft lbs

9mm Mak, 95gr FMJ; muzzle= 1,000fps, 211ft lbs 50yds= 928fps, 182ft lbs

The comparison of the 7.62x25 to the .45acp is good, but comparing the T-33 to the 1911 is not. A CZ-52/1911 comparison would've been better. The issue with the 7.62x25 is that, like the 5.56, 5.7, and the 5.45x39, the light bullet has to be moving very fast to maintain any type of impact on target. In 50yds it loses 336fps resulting in a loss of 188 foot pounds of energy, that's a lot, where the .45acp only looses 43ft lbs of energy in the same distance. But the 7.62x25 is plenty powerful for the ranges your typical political officer would be shooting conscripts at. The Mak is a fun little pistol, but I'm sure you can agree that its 9x18mm round is underpowered. If it was chambered for the 7.62Tok round, it would be snappy to fire, but much more effective.

Sights that are "fine" or "small and thin" aren't more accurate for head shots, they're just harder to aquire, see, and line up, they're fine for executing conscripts though. Have you noticed that pistol sights are getting bigger? They're much easier to see, there is a big time difference between the sights on my '41 Colt and my SAI trophy match.

You may also have missed the line in my post where I said "every tool has it's job", well, I'm a 1911 guy, but I understand that the 1911 isn't perfect, nor is it suited for every job in the world that a pistol would be needed for. I'm also an old Chevy truck guy, but I know that a '82 C-30 Scottsdale single-cab 4x4 isn't what I'd want to haul the family in from S.F. to Yellowstone, we have a Tahoe and it works great for that. The truck would do the job, but the tahoe is better.

I don't CC or open carry as Law Enforcement, I use my pistols for home defense, hunting side arms, target practice, and pistol matches. As it happens the 1911 type pistol and the .45acp has filled all these roles wonderfully, plus, all the markings on my pistols are in English and they say "made in the USA".

The 1911 and .45 aren't perfect for everything, but they're better at doing the things I use them for than any other combo I've tried.

Oh, here's the smiley guy..........:)

[Bob]

Ya know I have had this problem for years.
It got so bad on one forum that I would have to say "Knock Knock" so people would know I was joking.

[Stankynuts]

*sigh*

NO MP5s

NO Submachine Guns!

Civilian use only

PISTOLS ONLY

:x :x

Isnt the topic one side arm or small gun? Wouldnt an MP5k be considered a small gun?

[Darkness]

"How big is it?"

[homelitexl]

my dad has smgs

[mattifikation]

I think we already went over the MP5s. While you can technically get civilian legal MP5s that are configured as "pistols," as the law defines one, they don't really fit the definition as intended for this thread.

And no, it's not "one small gun," it's "one small side arm." So the question is geared towards ordinary handgun weapons.

[J Dub]

the one on the left :lol:
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj123/jonwaite/photography%20kind%20of/doublefisting01.jpg

[kiltedninja]

Your triceps are huge man.

[the_velociraptor]

A Desert Eagle.

Nah, I kid, I kid.

Any decent Colt 1911 variant. Barring that, a decent .357 revolver. that isn't a snub-nose.

[Bob]

Someone has a man crush...

[kiltedninja]

Bob, that's very admirable of you to admit such a thing.

I'm pretty sold on 1911's, but I haven't shot a very wide variety of pistols.

[Bob]

HaHaHaHa

Being able to take a joke goes a long way with Bob...
In this life one has to be able to take it as well as dish it out.

Hmmm
Bob must stay on topic.

In the ZPAW which would be more useful on a pistol, a laser sight or a red dot sight?

[CAVU45]

A 1911 with Crimson Trace laser grips.

[Bob]

What is the effective range with a crimson trace laser?
How well does it work in daylight?
Asking because I just don't know...

Lasers in this country are limited to 5mw because of the time it takes to damage an eye vs the blink reflex.

[kiltedninja]

HaHaHaHa

Being able to take a joke goes a long way with Bob...
In this life one has to be able to take it as well as dish it out.

Hmmm
Bob must stay on topic.

In the ZPAW which would be more useful on a pistol, a laser sight or a red dot sight?

I learned to take them and give them the hard way... hanging around my dad and his soldiers.

I've never used a laser or red dot, so I can't say for sure.

[Bob]

Well the laser would give the advantage of blinding.
The red dot would give the advantage of not projecting a beam to follow back to the source.
Both work best in lower light...

[steve2071]

Would I be cheating if I said AR15 pistol? :)

ETA: Or an AK pistol for that matter...

[CAVU45]

What is the effective range with a crimson trace laser?
How well does it work in daylight?
Asking because I just don't know...

Lasers in this country are limited to 5mw because of the time it takes to damage an eye vs the blink reflex.

Depending on the light conditions the laser is damned near infinite. It's obviously a device made for lower light conditions, which is fine with me. Good old iron sights work well for me during daylight hours. Red dot or holo sights are nice, but pretty cumbersome on a handgun.

[J Dub]

Depending on the light conditions the laser is damned near infinite. It's obviously a device made for lower light conditions, which is fine with me. Good old iron sights work well for me during daylight hours. Red dot or holo sights are nice, but pretty cumbersome on a handgun.
agreed.
i think the question is more of a ballistic one, how long will a round remain accurate. lasers don't bend or drop so its on the round more or less i reckon.

[CAVU45]

agreed.
i think the question is more of a ballistic one, how long will a round remain accurate. lasers don't bend or drop so its on the round more or less i reckon.

Exactely. The laser is limited by the light conditions and the round being fired.

[hotlead]

First, let me say that I have little personal experience with either of these, this is mostly speculation on my part.

While the laser sight would have a lower profile, making holster carry easier, I think the advantages of use go to the red dot sight. The red dot works the same all the time, day or night, rain or shine, smoke, fog, whatever, the laser sight can be compromised by different or changing conditions. I imagine that the red dot is more energy efficient than a laser sight, as it doesn't need to project a laser 100yds away.

[Devilspaintbrush]

the new Springfield XdM9

20 rounds of firepower
mmm

[LJHolcon]

Glock17, 5 33 rounders, one in the gun, 4 stored in an old Hensoldt scope case on the belt.

[Stankynuts]

I have bought a G17 and a few 33 rounds clips from a buddy so thats what id use.

[ZombieBruce]

custom desert eagle with a 12 clip. thatl make theore eyes water

[kiltedninja]

But how practical is carrying something like that ZB?

[CAVU45]

custom desert eagle with a 12 clip. thatl make theore eyes water

A Deagle. Seriously. :roll: What's a "12 clip"?

[mattifikation]

custom desert eagle with a 12 clip. thatl make theore eyes water

Seriously, do you and homelite just toss your mutually shared brain cell back and forth between each other while trying to out-stupid one another?

When your one skill is the ability to misspell more words than people have actually invented yet, maybe you shouldn't be trusted with chainsaws and handguns. If the zombies come, you guys can have T-Ball bats.

[homelitexl]

i resent that and i get the brain cell on week days and everyother weekend =other than that he gets it:lol: 44 mag

[mattifikation]

I just had to sell my XD to make rent and have money to buy food with. :-(

[Bob]

Dude that so sucks...

[mattifikation]

Yeah. :-(
I hope a job opens up somewhere before I have to sell any of my other guns.

[hotlead]

That really sucks bro, I hate to see anyone have to do that. Will you be able to buy it back someday?

I hope things pick up for you there sooner rather than later, it's starting to get better here, hopfully it'll move your way.

[mattifikation]

I'm sure someday I'll be able to buy another gun. I doubt it'll be in time to get back the exact same one, but that's okay. Maybe I'll upgrade to a .40. :evil:

[homelitexl]

dude im so sorry to heer that you can borrow my 22 mag if you want

[mattifikation]

FVCKING AWESOME.

I sell my gun for spare cash, 2 days later somebody hires me. Screw irony in its fat ugly ass. At least I'll be able to eat something besides ramen noodles now. =]

[homelitexl]

still dude wanna borrow one of my tuns

[CAVU45]

FVCKING AWESOME.

I sell my gun for spare cash, 2 days later somebody hires me. Screw irony in its fat ugly ass. At least I'll be able to eat something besides ramen noodles now. =]

Congrats Matt! You can always get another gun. Maybe the guy will sell your old one back to you?

[Bob]

Congrats on the job.
Work sucks but is better than the alternative.

**Bob is being a good boy and leaving all the disparaging remarks regarding our government unsaid use your imagination**

[neoanderson9318]

FVCKING AWESOME.

I sell my gun for spare cash, 2 days later somebody hires me. Screw irony in its fat ugly ass. At least I'll be able to eat something besides ramen noodles now. =]
But....Ramen noodles are absolutely amazing...

[Bob]

I don't like Ramen noodles.
I also don't like box macaroni and cheese.

I think it has to do with living on them for a prolonged period of time.

[Darkness]

"Back on Topic, guys!"

[Darkness]

"I've said it before, I'll say it again. You have a complaint, take it to PM, as it says in the rules. The Topic Threads are NOT the place for it."




"Now, back to the discussion of the Topic."

[mattifikation]

Sir, Yes, Sir! Suppressing all complaints and switching over to "obedient dog mode, Sir!" I'm givin' 'er all she's got, captain!

I'm thinking about replacing my dearly beloved lost Springfield XD9 with a .357 revolver or a Smith and Wesson Sigma in .40 Short 'n' Wimpy. Any advice?

[Hitman]

to answer darkness's question about the MP5K-pdw . its small , the secret sevice has carried them before as they can be hidden under a well cut sport coat . they carry the P90 now . the MP5k was also designed to be handed out to helicopter piolets as space for gear is at a premium . it is deffinatly a small sidearm , it kinda fills in the gap between a pistol and a rifle . its much closer in size to a pistol though .

http://www.scaar.at/airsoft/mp5kholster2.jpg

http://www.scaar.at/airsoft/mp5kpdw4.jpg

[CAVU45]

the MP5k was also designed to be handed out to helicopter piolets as space for gear is at a premium .

US Army helicopter pilots carry the M4 now and a variety of handguns.

[hotlead]

The MP-whatevermodelnumber/letter is a submachine gun, not a pistol. Calling it a PDW, a secret service concealed lead flinger, or anything else doesn't change that fact.

I would also consider the P-90 an SMG as well.

[the_velociraptor]

The MP-whatevermodelnumber/letter is a submachine gun, not a pistol. Calling it a PDW, a secret service concealed lead flinger, or anything else doesn't change that fact.

I would also consider the P-90 an SMG as well.

You'd think that'd be obvious to people. -_-

[Darkness]

"If it's small enough, it can be considered a Small Side Arm." :think:

[CAVU45]

What exactely is "small enough" and what definition is being used to describe a sidearm for the sake of this thread? The definition I've always seen describes a sidearm as a firearm designed to be operated with one hand, in other words a pistol or revolver.

[neoanderson9318]

Yeah, if you put a good suppresor on the MP5, then you have one of my favorite zombie-killing weapons. :)

[Darkness]

What exactely is "small enough" and what definition is being used to describe a sidearm for the sake of this thread? The definition I've always seen describes a sidearm as a firearm designed to be operated with one hand, in other words a pistol or revolver.

"I'll say, if it's about the same size as a large pistol, and can be carried in a holster, it's a 'Small Side Arm'. There ya go." :)

[the_velociraptor]

Yeah, if you put a good suppresor on the MP5, then you have one of my favorite zombie-killing weapons. :)

They only stop muzzle flash. IIRC, their main purpose was not to clog up a fireteam's vision with muzzle flash, but keep the noise intact. (At least, on non-sniper rifles.)

Anyway - just how accurate is a MAC-10/11/Uzi?

[mattifikation]

You're thinking of a flash hider. A suppressor is for sound.

[CAVU45]

Flash hider, flash suppressor. Both mean the same thing and are used interchangeably. Also known as flash guard, hider, cone, or eliminator. They do the same thing, reduce the visible signature of burning gasses as they exit the muzzle (muzzle flash) thereby reducing the risk of the shooter being seen. This device can be rendered useless with the firing of tracer rounds through the weapon. Remember boys and girls, tracers work both ways, not only showing you the enemy, but giving your position away to them.

But in the case of Velociraptors post, the suppressor in question would be a sound suppressor. Also known as a noise suppressor, sound moderator, or silencer they not only reduce the sound of a discharging firearm but have the added benefit of reducing muzzle flash.

[the_velociraptor]

They're still pretty loud, in comparison to what's shown in movies and vidya gaems. (Not knocking on fiction, just sayin'.)

[Hitman]

Anyway - just how accurate is a MAC-10/11/Uzi?


My mac 11/9 is nearly as accurate as my MP5 was . the H&K was a little smother and the first shot had a slight advantage with the closed bolt . UZI's and modded mac's will more than hold there own in a subgun match .

I'd feel comfortable taking head shots in semi with my mac at 50 yards , my MP5 had better sights and 75yards was easy for busting clays on the berm . the 9mm limits the range a fair bit as does the sights on must subguns .

good ammo and a good suppresor will really suprise you . my 9mm subgun can is very quiet , and in a building or outside it gets un noticeable in a very short distance . the .22lr is still the king of quiet though .

[Bob]

Regarding size.
In this state the law concerning concealed weaposn.
A concealed weapon can't be more than twelve inches long.

**I wanted to but did not post the obvious lewd comment**

[the_velociraptor]

Regarding size.
In this state the law concerning concealed weaposn.
A concealed weapon can't be more than twelve inches long.

**I wanted to but did not post the obvious lewd comment**

I feel sorry for the porn stars in your area. :evil:

[Hunk]

Colt Pyton 8-inch... stainless steel finish and a handful of speed loaders
http://forum.pafoa.org/imagehosting/358048023670b3cec.jpg

[neoanderson9318]

Is there no way to put a sound suppressor on an MP5?

[CAVU45]

Is there no way to put a sound suppressor on an MP5?

If memory serves, I don't think the MP5 can be mod'ed to take a suppressor. A variant was made with an integral suppressor though, the MP5SD. I believe Bob would have more and better info.

[LJHolcon]

If memory serves, I don't think the MP5 can be mod'ed to take a suppressor. A variant was made with an integral suppressor though, the MP5SD. I believe Bob would have more and better info.

You can, it just looks silly in my opinion. Gemtech makes the Raptor II now (and I.)

[mattifikation]

http://files.uzitalk.com/reference/shoots/uzitalk2007/event/silencer2.JPG

[Darkness]

"That is neither a pistol, OR a small side arm."

[mattifikation]

True.

However, it *IS* a suppressed MP5. Turning it into the smaller MP5 variant, which you said earlier counts for this thread, is simply a matter of changing the furniture.

Edit: I suppose the barrel would need shortened also.

[homelitexl]

A good sawed off should count as a small side arm

[Bob]

This fine Ceracoated double barrel can be yours for only $980 + the $200 tax stamp.
The Blued version is only $780

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/9260/coachgunis28575165.jpg



As evidenced by this picture they can indeed be side arms, but I would not consider them "small" side arms.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7710/holster18826144.jpg

[mattifikation]

That thing must kick like a kitten in a cage behind a Chinese restaurant.

[neoanderson9318]

HAHA!!!!

Well, IMO, I wouldn't really care if the supressed MP5 LOOKS funny. I just think that it would be a very good side-arm to have come Zday.

[homelitexl]

This fine Ceracoated double barrel can be yours for only $980 + the $200 tax stamp.
The Blued version is only $780

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/9260/coachgunis28575165.jpg



As evidenced by this picture they can indeed be side arms, but I would not consider them "small" side arms.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7710/holster18826144.jpg

that is my dream gun dammn

[Darkness]

"Nice boom stick! I could go for one of those!" :)

[Bob]

This 629 Smith and Wesson Stainless beauty will be mine as of Sunday afternoon.
Magnaported
Recrowned, front sight insert, retimed and trigger job by Magnaport.



http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/8970/sw6291magnaportleft5013.jpg

[Mohleybeard]

I would take an XDm .40 S&W. The 16+1 capacity is nice.

[Bob]

Real men shoot Glocks not them sissy XD's.

Just kidding, there is nothing wrong with a XD that trading it towards a Glock won't cure.

Dang I did it again.

Actually I have nothing against XDs and may get one next year.
I do think it is funny that the 1911 guys will buy an XD to keep from buying a Glock.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/9642/copyofinventory068crop6.jpg

[CAVU45]

Actually I have nothing against XDs and may get one next year.
I do think it is funny that the 1911 guys will buy an XD to keep from buying a Glock.

Of course. It isn't a Glock!

[rowdyrugby]

Real men shoot Glocks not them sissy XD's.

Just kidding, there is nothing wrong with a XD that trading it towards a Glock won't cure.

Dang I did it again.

Actually I have nothing against XDs and may get one next year.
I do think it is funny that the 1911 guys will buy an XD to keep from buying a Glock.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/9642/copyofinventory068crop6.jpg

Glock is overrated. They are nice guns, but I much prefer Walther or Sig...

[LJHolcon]

Glock is overrated. They are nice guns, but I much prefer Walther or Sig...

My three Walthers (PPS, PPK, P99) have all experienced problems. Case bulging, stove-pipes, and FTEs on Remington FMJ respectively.

I've owned 7 sigs (still own 5.) One of them rusted in my pocket, two of them rusted on a camping trip, my p226 Elite's rail was out of spec, and during a competition one of my magazine bumpers broke.

I've owned and own countless Glocks. All the factory magazines work flawlessly, the finish is vastly superior, they can handle even l7a1 or other Hirtenberger +P+ without demolishing the gun or peening.

Not trying to change your's or anyone's mind. But when I want to take a gun out of a box and know it's going to work I go Glock. That being said, their factory sights are god-awful. So my one massive complaint is paying an extra 80 bucks to buy night-sights every time I pick up a glock. Well, that an a Hogue grip.

I'd love to see a single stack 9 from them, too.

[Bob]

I can point shoot pretty well so I don't worry so much about the sights.
I have a pretty good assortment of other types of pistols and the Glocks are a considered choice not just the first thing I owned.

Really I could care less what anyone else thinks of them.
It's the same old song and dance.
1911 vs Glock
XD vs Glock
Glock is the standard the others aspire to.

I said it a few posts ago and and I will say it again.
It never ceases to amaze me how people have such a love hate relationship with 1911s and Glocks and such.
Most people who put Glocks down are trying to make their own pistol or pistols better in their mind.

I have Glocks because they work and I like the way they feel in my hand.
They are God awful ugly and blocky but I like the high capacity and the fact that they work without tons of custom work to improve them.

[LJHolcon]

I can point shoot pretty well so I don't worry so much about the sights.
I have a pretty good assortment of other types of pistols and the Glocks are a considered choice not just the first thing I owned.

Really I could care less what anyone else thinks of them.
It's the same old song and dance.
1911 vs Glock
XD vs Glock
Glock is the standard the others aspire to.

I said it a few posts ago and and I will say it again.
It never ceases to amaze me how people have such a love hate relationship with 1911s and Glocks and such.
Most people who put Glocks down are trying to make their own pistol or pistols better in their mind.

I have Glocks because they work and I like the way they feel in my hand.
They are God awful ugly and blocky but I like the high capacity and the fact that they work without tons of custom work to improve them.

I have never understood the hatred of Glocks. I know there are several legitimate complaints about them. But I think you may be right, a lot of people resent the fact that a relatively cheap "plastic pistol" preforms so well.

Aside from performance, Glock, as a company, has really helped gun owners. Even during the ban they produced an affordable product. You don't see any "LE Only" crap all over Glock hicaps (even the 33rounders.) Their magazines can still be found easily sub-20 dollars.

[mattifikation]

I think Glocks are hot looking. Then again, I also think AK-47s are nice looking weapons and people say they're ugly, too.

I only prefer XDs for the grip safety, and only marginally, and only because I'm a klutz. If I could walk five feet without dropping something, I probably wouldn't care either way.

[homelitexl]

sawd off all the way

[Hitman]

This fine Ceracoated double barrel can be yours for only $980 + the $200 tax stamp.
The Blued version is only $780

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/9260/coachgunis28575165.jpg



As evidenced by this picture they can indeed be side arms, but I would not consider them "small" side arms.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7710/holster18826144.jpg


bob if memory serves me correctly , those guns you posted are AOW's not sbs's . A guy several years ago talked a small italian company into selling him some bare virgen recievers . huge hastle that ended up costing him way more than he made .

could just be plain old cut down sbs's though . either way I need an over and under one just like them .

here in Tn a "handgun" has to have a barrel less than 12" . the AOW's that my company sold had barrels 11 7/8" long . the AG would never give us a ruleing as to weather or not it was legal to carry one with the state HCP lic .

[Hitman]

as for the Glock vs XD . I can shoot a glock much better and faster than a stock XD due to the long reset of the XD. I end up short stroking them during fast doubles . if I started with the XD I might not have ever noticed it though .

[Bob]

The website was explicit that they required the $200 tax stamp so they must be SBS.
Somewhere I have seen them listed as AOW maybe even the same company.

If I recall what I learned from you ...
The advantage of a SBS vs a AOW is you can do whatever you want with the stock.
Correct me if I am wrong but with an AOW if you put a stock on it then you change it's status and need another stamp.



Glocks are meat hammers plain and simple.


I about passed out the first time I bought a magazine for my Sig 220.

[homelitexl]

still like that sawed off

[Hitman]

The website was explicit that they required the $200 tax stamp so they must be SBS.
Somewhere I have seen them listed as AOW maybe even the same company.

If I recall what I learned from you ...
The advantage of a SBS vs a AOW is you can do whatever you want with the stock.
Correct me if I am wrong but with an AOW if you put a stock on it then you change it's status and need another stamp.



Glocks are meat hammers plain and simple.


I about passed out the first time I bought a magazine for my Sig 220.


different company then. the advantage of the AOW is the $5 tax vs $200 . but your right about the stock , the pistol above ,being a SBS , can have either a pistol grip or a stock put on it . there are some variations to the rule about AOW's , but most have to be hand held ( no shoulder stock , combo's and drillings being the exception , kinda ).

[rowdyrugby]

My three Walthers (PPS, PPK, P99) have all experienced problems. Case bulging, stove-pipes, and FTEs on Remington FMJ respectively.

I've owned 7 sigs (still own 5.) One of them rusted in my pocket, two of them rusted on a camping trip, my p226 Elite's rail was out of spec, and during a competition one of my magazine bumpers broke.


Well, I have put about 4000 rounds through my P99 without any problems (maybe 10 or 20 stove pipes with CCI ammo). I also have a P226 Navy that has maybe 2000 rounds through it with NO problems.

Frankly, I just dont like how Glock feels in my hand. I do not like how the recoil feels and it effects my shooting, just as it does most people. As I said, it's a nice gun, just not for me.

[mattifikation]

Different strokes for different folks.

If a zombie walked into the room I was chillin' in, I don't think I'd really care what kind of gun I had... as long as I had one.

[Birdman44]

Different strokes for different folks.

If a zombie walked into the room I was chillin' in, I don't think I'd really care what kind of gun I had... as long as I had one.

I completely agree, although with all the talk about them as well as my limited experience with GLOCK I'de have to say it seams to sound more like the AK platform every time I hear a "conversation" about it. Although it is sexy looking.. The GLOCK I mean :)

[LJHolcon]

I completely agree, although with all the talk about them as well as my limited experience with GLOCK I'de have to say it seams to sound more like the AK platform every time I hear a "conversation" about it. Although it is sexy looking.. The GLOCK I mean :)

I'd say that's true... the GLOCK could be considered the AK of pistols, although honestly I'd say that goes to Ruger semi's.

[Bob]

RR
You still notice recoil?
You analyze recoil?
Not being a smart azz here but I guess it is the number of years and thousands of rounds.
Unless my trigger finger gets banged against the frame or it otherwise actively hurts I just don't pay any attention to recoil other than recovery time.

Again not trying to be a smart azz or put you on the spot but please describe what feels different about the recoil from a Glock.

I have several Glocks and even thinking about it I can't say what difference there would be between them and my 1911 or the Sigs or even the Berettas regarding recoil.
Other than caliber difference that is.

I agree they feel different in the hand and are not for everyone.
It may be that I like them because they fill my hand my hands are 2xl.

(I am not making the remarks I want to using the words fill and girlfriend)

[homelitexl]

a good 45 is all i need

[Birdman44]

I'd say that's true... the GLOCK could be considered the AK of pistols, although honestly I'd say that goes to Ruger semi's.

All I've shot from ruger is my father's 10/22, which is amazingly reliable (the only problems I ever had was some crap ammo that didn't fire when I pulled the trigger) and I don't even know if hes ever cleaned it! But how are the others?

[Noc]

I've only ever fired an Air-Pistol, living in AUS that's about as good as it gets unless you become an officer of the law, or a security guard. Still the Air-Pistol was fun.

[Jimmy]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:xrRqhzYZlUMOaM:http://www.public.asu.edu/~jlongwor/images/glock.JPG

[spooker609]

As far as sidearms I'd go with my 2 Glock 19s, extremely reliable, accurate, high capacity (G-17 17rd mags with +2 bases for back-up). 9mm is very contollable and fmj should be good for head shots.

[Birdman44]

Problem with being in Jersey is no centerfire guns with magazines that can hold over 15 rounds :x It basically destroys my hopes and dreams for when I'm 18.. No G17's for me :cry:

[LJHolcon]

Problem with being in Jersey is no centerfire guns with magazines that can hold over 15 rounds :x It basically destroys my hopes and dreams for when I'm 18.. No G17's for me :cry:

Glock19? Or do they include a round in the chamber?

[Bob]

G-17 = 17 rounds in mag +1 in chamber = 18

You could put a +2 on the mag for 19 rounds +1 in the chamber = 20

Or you could just get a 33 round mag +1 = 34

[Birdman44]

G-17 = 17 rounds in mag +1 in chamber = 18

You could put a +2 on the mag for 19 rounds +1 in the chamber = 20

Or you could just get a 33 round mag +1 = 34

If I moved out of NJ. But at least rimfires can still hold however many they can here and still be legal. That could be a plus with some pistols I would think. Although I do have a longing to shoot a G17 :-(

[J Dub]

If I moved out of NJ. But at least rimfires can still hold however many they can here and still be legal. That could be a plus with some pistols I would think. Although I do have a longing to shoot a G17 :-(

go with the glock 21, 10 rounds of pure .45acp goodness :drool:

9mm bah, thats a lady's round :lol:

[FFG]

When looking to buy a 9mm a couple years ago I bought the XD9. It just did not work for me. I am not claiming there was anything wrong with the firearm, I just decided I liked Glock better. I sold it and bought a G19.

I admit that lately I have been tempted to buy another XD.

[Contract Killer]

I'd use a glock with a few high cap mags personally, Glock 17, i would rather have the 20 from what ive read, but 10mm is rare stuff

[Donny Donowitz]

Beretta 92FS. Nuff' said.

[CAVU45]

Beretta 92FS. Nuff' said.

Why "Nuff' said"?

[mattifikation]

Isn't that what the U.S. Army issues the grunts?

I've actually thought about that gun. You'd probably be able to find magazines for it anywhere you could find zombified soldiers. I might even buy the Taurus knock-off when I get the chance.

[AZombieAttack]

sorry I know there's tons of side arms out there that use a clip and shoot more bullets. Im assuming that I will have more than one gun....cant remember the name of this revolver (yes revolver) but it shoots 410 shells and/or 45. bullets. A nice mixture of power there. And 2 different sets of ammo could come in handy.

[Donny Donowitz]

sorry I know there's tons of side arms out there that use a clip and shoot more bullets. Im assuming that I will have more than one gun....cant remember the name of this revolver (yes revolver) but it shoots 410 shells and/or 45. bullets. A nice mixture of power there. And 2 different sets of ammo could come in handy.


Tarus Judge AND Thunder 5. Both shoot .410/45LC

[J Dub]

Why "Nuff' said"?

cause a .45acp is too much :lol:

i like the 92's and owned one years ago. but there is something about 9mm that i don't get.

[mattifikation]

It's easy to find, relatively cheap, offers the highest capacity for most guns, it's far less questionable than .22lr, and it's NATO standard.

[CityOfChicago]

I'm not a 9mm fan. It makes nice holes in paper, but it's stopping power is questionable.

I know, I know - I've heard the 9mm v 45ACP arguments, blah blah blah. If you like 9mm and want to carry it, fine. It's good that the ammo is plentiful and cheap, cause you'll need plenty of it. If you're not hitting head shots or center mass, it aint doing it. My experience with it, anyway.

[Unassigned]

Definitely a Glock 17. I'd love to say that a Colt Gold Cup would be ideal for me, but to be honest the availability of ammo and low mag capacity (which has been covered already in this thread) simply doesn't offer much compared to the functional reliability and tank-like nature of Glock pistols.

Besides, the fact that you can take 20 minutes and make every model into a full-auto pistol just gives you a warm, fuzzy feeling inside.

[Contract Killer]

I'm not a 9mm fan. It makes nice holes in paper, but it's stopping power is questionable.

I know, I know - I've heard the 9mm v 45ACP arguments, blah blah blah. If you like 9mm and want to carry it, fine. It's good that the ammo is plentiful and cheap, cause you'll need plenty of it. If you're not hitting head shots or center mass, it aint doing it. My experience with it, anyway.

Uhm, well only headshots count anyway, and im prettttyyy sure a 9mm can handle that.....

to quote a very intellegent poster on here "high capacity, low recoil"


which is why i take the glock 17

[CityOfChicago]

It's a proven and documented fact that the 9mm does not have the power to penetrate the human skull.

[mattifikation]

Well, then I'm glad I sold mine.

[CityOfChicago]

+1 to your signature

[Unassigned]

It's a proven and documented fact that the 9mm does not have the power to penetrate the human skull.

If I remember correctly, this study found that consistently, a round could not exit the skull. Entering and causing damage was not a problem. However, keep in mind distance as the control in the experiment.

[CityOfChicago]

Nope - it can't even get inside. It's so underpowered that the best it can do is potentially fracture the cranium. It wants to get inside; in the magazine the 15 little buggers all dream of getting inside. But they cannot.

9mm---> :x <---skull

[Unassigned]

Going to have to research this one. I'm pretty sure this wasn't the case, however there obviously could have been more than one study... If you can locate the one you are discussing, I'd love to check it out.

[CityOfChicago]

Yes - here it is:

Irrefuteable Scientific Evidence (http://www.allthingszombie.com/forums/showpost.php?p=433437&postcount=1150)

[steve2071]

If anyone shoots me with a 9mm after the sky falls, I'm gonna be so pissed off. :)

[neoanderson9318]

If anyone shoots me with a 9mm after the sky falls, I'm gonna be so pissed off. :)

Just be sure not to turn into a Zed then. :evil:

[killnburn]

well actually, if the 9mm can not penetrate a human skull, the .45acp won t be able to either, because the 45, even tough its undoubtedly a better man stopper, has less muzzle velocity, meaning its more of a punch than a sting. The 9mm lack of stopping power often comes from the fact that it goes right trough the target, not transferring much of its kinetic energy, compared to the slower, bigger .45acp.

again, it all varies on the load size etc, of course subsonic 9mm is not a good example of penetration while some .45 can have some pretty high velocity,

then again, both rounds are viable, its the best tool for the best job. in a zombie situations, i would go with a sig sauer p226 9mm, as sated before the key is high capacity, low recoil and for me, the sig is just a perfect fit, more so than the glock, havent had the chance to play with a 1911 tough.

just my two cents

[steve2071]

I'm pretty sure every person commenting here is already well aware that 9mm will ruin your day. It will open up your skull real good.

[CityOfChicago]

I had hoped quoting my own post would indicate my complete silliness in this matter...

[the_velociraptor]

I'm pretty sure every person commenting here is already well aware that 9mm will ruin your day. It will open up your skull real good.

Pretty much.

[FFG]

Beretta 92FS. Nuff' said.

Accurate and reliable, but not for everyone.

It would be pretty down far on the list for me.

[AZombieAttack]

40. glock is an amaziningly acurate pistol....however I still say that revolver that you can load 410 shells, or 45. caliber rounds. Simple fact is you have 2 times the chance of finding ammo, cant find 45. (think they would go pretty fast, grab some 410 shells) nice side arm there with good stopping power.

Id like to be carrying 2 of then though....:evil:

[FFG]

40. glock is an amaziningly acurate pistol....however I still say that revolver that you can load 410 shells, or 45. caliber rounds. Simple fact is you have 2 times the chance of finding ammo, cant find 45. (think they would go pretty fast, grab some 410 shells) nice side arm there with good stopping power.

Id like to be carrying 2 of then though....:evil:

I would take the judge as a great wandering the woods, anti-snake gun. But it is not as good anti-zed choice. Low capacity. Poor penetration(410).

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

The thing is very inaccurate out past 10 yards or so. Shot one not too long ago and the 45LCs were fine in close, but past 10 yards our groups were terrible (and not with any other handgun that day).

Interesting idea, but imo very bad choice for Z-day.

[homelitexl]

haha i want a homlite zip there a small saw they used to make

[Slayer]

9mm or .45 are OK...but I prefer Revolvers in .38 or .357.

[Mohleybeard]

40. glock is an amaziningly acurate pistol....however I still say that revolver that you can load 410 shells, or 45. caliber rounds. Simple fact is you have 2 times the chance of finding ammo, cant find 45. (think they would go pretty fast, grab some 410 shells) nice side arm there with good stopping power.

Id like to be carrying 2 of then though....:evil:

The pistol your referring to is a Taurus Judge. It's a .45 Long Colt, which has the same diameter as a .410 shotshell. 45 Long Colt is not as readily avalible as .45 ACP, which is what I believe you are thinking of. Long Colts are not very easy to find right now. My local gun store only get about 2 boxes a week. The Judge is also a big gun and the basic models are heavy.

[AZombieAttack]

I would take the judge as a great wandering the woods, anti-snake gun. But it is not as good anti-zed choice. Low capacity. Poor penetration(410).

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

The thing is very inaccurate out past 10 yards or so. Shot one not too long ago and the 45LCs were fine in close, but past 10 yards our groups were terrible (and not with any other handgun that day).

Interesting idea, but imo very bad choice for Z-day.

I'm basing this on slow movers. Yes absolutly right about everything you said, however close range is all Im worried about (and of course allways ammo) with slow movers. A 410 buckshot may not do much damage but at fairly close range it witll knock a person down, get some penetration.

Fast movers I have to go with a 40. glock, and just hope I can find as much ammo as possible, and yes with a laser (on both actually)

[mattifikation]

How will it knock a person down?

[kiltedninja]

The only shotguns I have experience with are a 20 ga. 12 ga. and another sawed off 12 ga. but I haven't heard much about the 410.

[Birdman44]

The only shotguns I have experience with are a 20 ga. 12 ga. and another sawed off 12 ga. but I haven't heard much about the 410.

I haven't personally shot it, but my mother was given one last time we went shooting because she was uncomfortable with the 12's. It has a lot less recoil than the 12 (obviously) and a much smaller pattern as well, but other than that I'm not sure how effective it is on the defense either.

[snakebite]

I'd go with a glock or an XD. They're so utterly reliable its ridiculous. I would also go with a 9mm. You're going for the head anyway, so you dont need massive amounts of tissue damage. Lots of rounds in a single mag, quick to reload, quick to get sights back on target after firing and ammo everywhere. revolvers are awesome. They dont ever go down and if you practice, you can reload them very quickly.
Incidentally, as far as rifles go, the M14 is also stupid reliable and incredibly stout.

[J Dub]

revolvers are awesome. They dont ever go down.

i have had two revolvers, both s&w. one in .357mag/.38 and the other in .44mag. THEY DO FAIL (speaking from experience) and usually at the worst time..during reloading.

for ball bat reliability i'm sticking to my glock first, my 1911 second. both in .45acp cause i like big holes :evil:

[AZombieAttack]

The only shotguns I have experience with are a 20 ga. 12 ga. and another sawed off 12 ga. but I haven't heard much about the 410.



A 410. buckshot has some knock down power within 50 feet or so...IMO

[mattifikation]

again...

how does it knock people down?

[kiltedninja]

It makes holes in people Matt, that makes people not want to stand.

[homelitexl]

my 16 gauge can make a cueball sized hole in a deer head with birdshot it suprised me i just tried it today

[mattifikation]

Falling over and getting knocked down are two different things.

[AZombieAttack]

Falling over and getting knocked down are two different things.

True but imagine getting hit with a sledge hammer in the cheast or even head. At 50 or so feet I garuntee you a 410. would have at least the same PSI impact, yes it would knock you down.

[homelitexl]

yeah well im still impressed my double barrel could do waht it did

[mattifikation]

True but imagine getting hit with a sledge hammer in the cheast or even head. At 50 or so feet I garuntee you a 410. would have at least the same PSI impact, yes it would knock you down.

No, not even close. You watch too many movies. Think about it from the standpoint of the laws of physics. If the bullets leaving the gun don't knock down the guy holding it, then they don't have enough energy to knock down the guy they hit.

[AZombieAttack]

No, not even close. You watch too many movies. Think about it from the standpoint of the laws of physics. If the bullets leaving the gun don't knock down the guy holding it, then they don't have enough energy to knock down the guy they hit.

No my friend I have shot more guns than I can remember. My very first gun was a 410. My your rule of physics a 12 guage or even a 10 gauge would not knock someone down, because it would not knock the shooter down when the shoot it. Get hit with 10 gauge buckshot and tell me you will not be knocked down? Thats not how the physics of firearms work.

There was an episode of Myth Busters were they tested fireing off shells by themselves. In all cases it was actually the shell caseing that was ejected the farthers, with out the stoughtness of holding the firearm you are correct, but holding it you take the recoil....I really do not see the difficulty in this...

[mattifikation]

A 12 gauge will not knock someone down. It will probably make them fall down, but it will not physically force them to the ground with the force of the impact.

I suppose you also think that if you shoot somebody indoors, a window will always be behind them and they will go flying backwards through it?

[kiltedninja]

Have either of you shot someone with a shotgun? I'm not recommending you do it because of laws put in place against it under most circumstances. I've seen it, and it doesn't knock them down, they scream and fall down bleeding with large parts of (at least in the case I saw) their chest and shoulder missing. This happened from about 10 feet away.
That's not knocking someone down, that's called them falling and going into shock.
And Darkness, I'm not certain of whether they died or not, and I'm not going to discuss the circumstances any further, I'm just making a point based on my own experience..

[Darkness]

"Thank you, for your discretion, kiltedninja. I appreciate it."

[mattifikation]

No, I haven't shot somebody with a shotgun. That doesn't preclude me from knowing that a 12 gauge - let alone, a 410 bore handgun - will not knock somebody down. Your observation supports my claim, as do the thousands of observations that have been made by people whose jobs are to know these things.

Fall down, yes. Knock down, no.

It's a myth that needs to die.

[kiltedninja]

That was the point I was trying to make Matt.

[AZombieAttack]

Well if it makes any difference I was in the 82nd Airbore for 6 years in forward ops so I know a bit about weapons.

Im just not sure this myth falling down from some force, or being knocked down....seems one in the same to me.

[Darkness]

"Knocked Down - As in by the force of an impact."
"Fall Down - As in the body is so full of holes, and/or pain, (or lacking things like the middle of it's spine, or the ribcage.) that it can no longer stand."

[mattifikation]

Or in other words, falling down is caused by gravity, while knocking down is caused by whatever does the knocking.

[AZombieAttack]

lol....kindauva weird debate :), but I will continue. Ok I see falling down as falling, on your own, perhaps tripping or something, but no direct force made you hit the ground.

While being knocked down is hitting the ground by an outside force.

So being shot ...again..IMO... and the zombie hits the ground to me, yes he fell, but was actually knocked down by the force of a foreign impact.

[rickbreck]

Only one pistol for the zombie apocalypse...

Okay. A conditional answer. If I could do some research and be assured this is a reliable gun, not a jammomatic, I'd go for an Intratec Tec-22. It's the only .22 LR I know of that takes a magazine with a capacity greater than 10 rounds. It uses Ruger 10-22 mags which means, theoretically, you could hang a 50 round drum mag on it (if they work right) and certainly you could fill a shoulder bag with 25 round Eagle or Butler Creek mags. It has a threaded barrel, too, so if we're in a Zombie scenario where I can buy one, I'd get a suppressor (and a spare) for it. Or, if we're not in a scenario where I can buy one, I could at least get fake suppressors (I know they make those) to be converted to working suppressors after civil authority craps out.

If it turns out the Intratec is not reliable, I'd go with a Browning Buckmark with a 6" barrel. I KNOW they're accurate and reliable. I'd just have to settle for a larger number of 10 round mags...

[mattifikation]

As long as we're in agreement that people don't go flying backwards, we can call it getting "honked non-uppishly towards the antisky" for all I care.

[CAVU45]

lol....kindauva weird debate :), but I will continue. Ok I see falling down as falling, on your own, perhaps tripping or something, but no direct force made you hit the ground.

While being knocked down is hitting the ground by an outside force.

So being shot ...again..IMO... and the zombie hits the ground to me, yes he fell, but was actually knocked down by the force of a foreign impact.

Call it what you will, the fabled "knockdown power" and "stopping power" are myths perpetuated by unknowledgable (and sometimes knowledgable) people and hollywood.

Okay. A conditional answer. If I could do some research and be assured this is a reliable gun, not a jammomatic, I'd go for an Intratec Tec-22. It's the only .22 LR I know of that takes a magazine with a capacity greater than 10 rounds. It uses Ruger 10-22 mags which means, theoretically, you could hang a 50 round drum mag on it (if they work right) and certainly you could fill a shoulder bag with 25 round Eagle or Butler Creek mags. It has a threaded barrel, too, so if we're in a Zombie scenario where I can buy one, I'd get a suppressor (and a spare) for it. Or, if we're not in a scenario where I can buy one, I could at least get fake suppressors (I know they make those) to be converted to working suppressors after civil authority craps out.

Tell me if I'm wrong guys, but haven't we already had the "great .22lr debate" ad naseum here? And if memory serves we concluded the .22lr is not a cartridge that lends itself well to self defense.

[AZombieAttack]

Ive noticed a couple of you guys are taking this a bit too seriously. To be honest I do not care. I was in the military, I served 2 tours in Afgan as a part of an 82nd aiborne attachment. Forward ops.... I have a purple heart, I have been shot before...... Does that make me an expert on every hand gun....certainly not. but do not come at me like I have no idea what Im talking about.

I respect others opions theories and such.....

[CAVU45]

Taking it seriously? Not at all. I have a tour of Iraq. Been shot at, blown up. It doesn't make me an expert either. But truth is truth, whether one likes it or not.

[kiltedninja]

I'm not claiming to be an expert on anything either, I'm just offering up my own personal experiences for the discussion.

[homelitexl]

wow u guys should drink more

[kiltedninja]

I'm drunk alot of the time I'm on here Homelite.

[J Dub]

playing the devil's advocate :evil:

what would you call a 230grain fmj .45acp round fired into center mass and impacting the spine. knock down or fall down?

a decent head shot will rag doll about anyone, i don't buy into that knock down stuff much. jeez, you could hit a limp wristed hairy backed faggity ann (zombie of course) with a 22lr and i'd be betting it would be a good case for knock down power with most of the sheeps logic these days. :lol:

:drinking:

[kiltedninja]

playing the devil's advocate :evil:

what would you call a 230grain fmj .45acp round fired into center mass and impacting the spine. knock down or fall down?

a decent head shot will rag doll about anyone, i don't buy into that knock down stuff much. jeez, you could hit a limp wristed hairy backed faggity ann (zombie of course) with a 22lr and i'd be betting it would be a good case for knock down power with most of the sheeps logic these days. :lol:

:drinking:

I'd call it a fall down, since a knock down implies that a piece of lead the size of a marble can knock down a man makes absolutely no sense. There's just not enough mass there to knock down a person. A knock down would be if you were to say, hit someone in the face with a bat or something, even a punch in the face that knocks someone out is a fall down, since their loss of balance is what's causing them to fall, not your fist in their jaw. Again not enough mass.

[FFG]

Go set up something about man heavy. Something thick enough to prevent the shot going all the way through and then shoot it with a shotgun.

I suspect you will make some holes, but that it will not be "knocked down".

[unnamedbaby77]

I would have to go with an H&K mark 23 for accuracy and overall cstability/quality

as for the knock down power argument .....anyone with firearms/shooting/combat experience will tell you when a a marble sized bit of l;ead is flying at 2300 FPS alot of strange things will and wont happen .

that topic has been debunked a thousand times over by the pure and simple fact that what stops people from moving is WHERE and WHAT the bullet hits not how hard or fast it hits

just my 2 pence

[Patrickwontsurvive]

Unfortunately I would have to go with whatever I find and hope that its any good. Might get lucky and find a patrol officers gun or something laying around on a corpse.

[Shufflef00t]

mythbusters annyone?

I'm reaching for a .22
readily avail ammo is my first concern really.
Considering its a pistol, I'm not using it outside of 50ft max.
I can shoot you in the head at 50ft.
Will a .22 penetrate the skull and scramble the brain at 50ft?

[kiltedninja]

We have doubts as to whether it even penetrates the skull at 10 ft. The .22lr is a seriously small round. If you trust it, use it, but I'd go with something larger.

[Thiefx100]

Heckler & Koch .45 ACP USP Tactical w/ a SIG Sauer STL-900L Tactical Light with Laser, Sound Suppressor, Jetfunnel/Magwell and Translucent High Capacity Magazines.

Though I wonder if I'd take .45 ACP stopping power over 9mm availability. There also might be some guns with higher capacity out there.

... I also like the SIG Sauer P226. Which would be 9mm.

[Shufflef00t]

We have doubts as to whether it even penetrates the skull at 10 ft. The .22lr is a seriously small round. If you trust it, use it, but I'd go with something larger.

seriously? I don't own a .22, nor have I ever fired one, so I'm in the dark as far as capabilities. I guess I'll look for a 9mm.

[mattifikation]

Let's put it this way...

Would I shoot myself in the head with a .22 to prove it's too weak? No, no I certainly would not. Would I trust it to be enough to save my life from anything larger than a rabid wiener dog? No, no I absolutely would not.

[Hunk]

well i would have a 9mm glock (any varient i dont care (G18 would be nice XD)) With a Abraxis Juipiter eye supressor, its 'dry' so i wouldnt need any grease, a frontmount flash light and fibre optic sights for night shootin':guns:

[Till Night Falls]

i would take an m9 with like a whole bunch of extra clips so i wont run out :guns:

[echo112]

M1911!!!!!!!!! no other choice!!!!!

[undeadkllr]

While my daily carrygun in RL is a 1911 I would have to stick with a 9mm for a prolonged survival situation. A 22lr is an effective round and in the hands of a skilled person, but if you are not a good shot, stick with what is going to do the most damage AND has better ammo availability.

[mattifikation]

i would take an m9 with like a whole bunch of extra clips so i wont run out :guns:

Where are you gonna find an M9 that takes clips?

[ShotGunGuy93]

Where are you gonna find an M9 that takes clips?

FINALLY, someone that knows the difference between a magazine and a stripper clip. :clap:

As for me. Beretta 96D or Glock 22. Ive got about 2000 rounds of UMC .40 S&W at home so Im good for ammo..

[CAVU45]

FINALLY, someone that knows the difference between a magazine and a stripper clip. :clap:

As for me. Beretta 96D or Glock 22. Ive got about 2000 rounds of UMC .40 S&W at home so Im good for ammo..

:roll:

I'm gonna leave it alone....

[ShotGunGuy93]

:roll:

I'm gonna leave it alone....

What..My excessive amount of ammo? I shoot alot on the weekends..

[kiltedninja]

The clip thing is what I think he's talking about.

We generally let the stupid people stay stupid while insulting them with things they don't understand until they leave. That or they get smart and stay here, and we insult them with stuff they do understand and insult us back. That's about how it works here.

My pistol of choice and the one I have are different than each other. I have a 1911, but I'd like to have something with a higher magazine capacity... On second thought, If I'm not trying to kill every zombie I see, what's the point? I think that if I'm using a pistol it's for suicide or something we're not allowed to talk about here.

[mattifikation]

Redefining gun porn?

[Mohleybeard]

I've got a Taurus PT140 Pro and a Ruger Standard Model niether of which would be my choice for Z-Day

[RyDub]

Beretta 92f i like the look of it.

[unnamedbaby77]

Beretta 92f i like the look of it.


I like the look of berettas as well but has anyone ever noticed that the barrel is exposed?

I think that leaves a lot of space for fouling!

[kiltedninja]

Redefining gun porn?

No, I was talking about killing humans. But it's against the rules.

I never liked the feel of the Beretta 92f. It's not comfortable to me.

[mattifikation]

Oh. I thought you were talking about using guns as sexual devices and taking pictures. I was thinking, "What kind of sick loser would even come up with that?"

[kiltedninja]

Matthew...you worry me.

[unnamedbaby77]

speaking of worry and gun porn

http://media.photobucket.com/image/hairy%20gun%20guy/jaktai/fat_hairy_guy_on_bed_with_guns.jpg

[unnamedbaby77]

No, I was talking about killing humans. But it's against the rules.

I never liked the feel of the Beretta 92f. It's not comfortable to me.


for ergonomics check out sig sauer(sp?) and CZ

[sk8rmichael]

im thinking about buying my own side arm but i cant decide on a sig p220 and a glock :S
any body know which would be better?

[ShotGunGuy93]

im thinking about buying my own side arm but i cant decide on a sig p220 and a glock :S
any body know which would be better?

If youre looking for a 9x19 go with a Glock 17 and dont look back..

[mattifikation]

Unless you like having a real safety. Or a comfortable grip angle. Or a gun that you can thump somebody with that will actually leave a dent in their skull. :lol:

I kid, I kid...

[ShotGunGuy93]

Unless you like having a real safety. Or a comfortable grip angle. Or a gun that you can thump somebody with that will actually leave a dent in their skull. :lol:

I kid, I kid...

I understand that theres no ACTUAL safety, but on mine I put a custom trigger on that has a push safety. As far as grip angle as long as you get a 2nd Gen Glock without the retarded finger grooves its actually pretty comfortable..

[CAVU45]

im thinking about buying my own side arm but i cant decide on a sig p220 and a glock :S
any body know which would be better?

Not exactely a Glock/Sig comparison, but you get the idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBdYBc0BLgQ&feature=email

[Bob]

For what it is worth I have a Glock 21 and a Sig 220 and prefer the Glock.

[unnamedbaby77]

im thinking about buying my own side arm but i cant decide on a sig p220 and a glock :S
any body know which would be better?

in my humble opinion the sig is the better choice but they are both quality fire arms, its more about what you are looking for in a sidearm.

for example I like the sig cause I like my pistols to have hammers...so I go sig

[sk8rmichael]

well ive shot a glock before and i liked it my freinds gona let me shoot his sig
only thing i dislike with glocks is they are all bulky and my hands arnt exactly big like my dads so idk xD

[kiltedninja]

I've never shot the Sig 220 but Glocks are a different story. I've got hands that are big enough to handle a Glock comfortably, and the Glock performed well, they're a good gun if you have the hands for it.

[Bob]

Don't get me wrong Sigs are good guns
The 45 and 9mm eat anything I feed them.
I just don't like that long long double action first shot trigger pull.

I would rather have one than a 1911 though.
(Bob is ducking and covering trying to avoid the beat down headed his way for that statement, I was just kidding guys)

[J Dub]

[QUOTE=Bob;436976]
:naughty:
(Bob is ducking and covering trying to avoid the beat down headed his way for that statement, I was just kidding guys)
:lol:


i like good 1911's, my norc is adequate. i would grab my glock first though. but a pair of kimber 1911's in the smaller 4 inch and i'd be set. that won't ever happen until i get state side as 4 inchers or prohibited up here :doh:

[Zell959]

To add a wrinkle to the decision, what if you had to pick a single pistol not for you personally, but to leave with an untrained GF/BF/Wife/Husband who is going to be on their own for a period of time?

For example, you're venturing out to find supplies or scout a more suitable location and want them to stay where they are until you get back. Assuming the only arms you have to spare are handguns, what one gun do you leave them with so they have something in the event they're attacked whil you're away?

My first thought was a revolver as they are often advocated as better home defense choices for the untrained because they are simple to use and only require an additional trigger pull in the event of a misfire.

But upon further consideration, I think you're better off leaving them with a modern handgun with higher capacity. They may not know how to clear a jam, but I think its worth the remote risk of a jam to give them 15+ rounds per magazine. Ideally you would throw on one of the grip activated laser sights so they'd have some help with their aim & wouldn't have to remember to activate it. I'd probably go with 9mm because it should be able to get the job done and they likely can't manage the recoil of larger rounds.

Combining my own preferences with my above thought process, I'd choose to leave them with a Glock 17 equiped with a Crimson Trace laser on the grip. I'd also preload as many magazines as I had to spare and hope they could pick up how to reload from just a quick demonstration. Those 33 round magazines aren't legal in my state, so I likely would not be able to provide them, but would go with those if available.

[Undead Jackal]

I would say a glock 18 ( if that counts )
or the 357 magnum

[J Dub]

To add a wrinkle to the decision, what if you had to pick a single pistol not for you personally, but to leave with an untrained GF/BF/Wife/Husband who is going to be on their own for a period of time?

For example, you're venturing out to find supplies or scout a more suitable location and want them to stay where they are until you get back. Assuming the only arms you have to spare are handguns, what one gun do you leave them with so they have something in the event they're attacked whil you're away?

My first thought was a revolver as they are often advocated as better home defense choices for the untrained because they are simple to use and only require an additional trigger pull in the event of a misfire.

But upon further consideration, I think you're better off leaving them with a modern handgun with higher capacity. They may not know how to clear a jam, but I think its worth the remote risk of a jam to give them 15+ rounds per magazine. Ideally you would throw on one of the grip activated laser sights so they'd have some help with their aim & wouldn't have to remember to activate it. I'd probably go with 9mm because it should be able to get the job done and they likely can't manage the recoil of larger rounds.

Combining my own preferences with my above thought process, I'd choose to leave them with a Glock 17 equiped with a Crimson Trace laser on the grip. I'd also preload as many magazines as I had to spare and hope they could pick up how to reload from just a quick demonstration. Those 33 round magazines aren't legal in my state, so I likely would not be able to provide them, but would go with those if available.

good read. i think you are on the right track, revolver's are uncomplicated and glocks even less complicated imo. for a revolver i'd look at a .357 but run .38spl through it. the .38 is a very effective round and has low recoil so novice shooters should be able to manage it easily.
your choice of glock is more to my personal suiting and the 9mm is also effective, though i'm partial to bigger holes :evil:
the nice thing about glock as you mentioned is its ability to hold a higher number of rounds. they are also easy to learn and break down to only 4 components when stripping.
ideally, training with the chosen firearm would be a priority. no caliber is effective if you can't put it where its meant to be.

i have yet to have a failure with my glock21sf, i've attempted limp wristing it and still failed to cause a malfunction.

my s&w 686 is a nice shooter and very accurate, however i have had a failure with this. i was at the range after a couple of box's of winchester went through it i went to open the cylinder and it would not budge. it was stuck closed and would not release, not the best scenario in a shtf situation. the ejector rod had apparently worked its way out a couple of turns causing the cylinder to become locked in place. the remedy was simple once i figured out what had happened (almost a minute later, which is a long time) i pointed it downrange and held the knurled end of the rod to keep it from turning. i then proceeded to cycle the action to rotate the cylinder back onto the rod. it took about 8 pulls before i could open it.

just saying i've had failures with revolvers and 1911's, but not with a glock. i would of never thought glock as being more reliable than revolver but i believe it is from my experience.

[Bob]

I agree with the G-17
The G-18 would be fine if used on semi only.

High capacity low recoil is the name of the game for zombies and novice shooters.
No safety to fumble with, pick it up, point it, and pull the trigger.

In a Zombie survival situation you should always train the novices in basic gun handling.
Daily refreshers on sight picture
Daily drills in loading magazines
Daily drills in magazine changes
Daily dry fire drills (if you have snap caps or know for a fact it won't hurt the gun)
Daily safety drills
(I always hated it when playing paintball and some kid on my team would accidentally shoot me)

Now that sounds nice and sensible but probably would not get done unless you had an old fart like me to enforce it.

Just make sure they know how to load a magazine and do mag swaps.
Have them practice X number of times. (X=your personal comfort number)

This really is not rocket science or maybe it is and I have just been doing it so long that I don't think about it anymore.

Do any of Y'all play paintball?
Bob has not played in years but still has a bunch of gear.

[fraust]

Five-SeVen sounds good.
Except for 5.7x28mm isn't that easy to come by.
HK VP70.
18 round mag, 9x19mm.
High capacity, modest recoil, a cartridge that can be easily found.

[kiltedninja]

We have the 5.7 pistol round at alot of the stores around here. It's easy to come by here.

[mattifikation]

The good stuff is expensive, though. There's an aftermarket company that makes rounds similar to the FN's police-only ammo and sells it to civilians, but there's only the one.

[unnamedbaby77]

Five-SeVen sounds good.
Except for 5.7x28mm isn't that easy to come by.
HK VP70.
18 round mag, 9x19mm.
High capacity, modest recoil, a cartridge that can be easily found.

as well as a holster that doubles as a stock and gives the weapon a 3 round burst setting
]
I WANT ONE I WANT ONE I WANT ONE I WANT ONE I WANT ONE

taurus judge would not be a terrible idea as a weapon for a dependent, its so big the recoil is not terrible with 45acp
or if they are more capable it can fire 45 long colt and 410 shot shell/slugs etc.

plus that gives you multiple common ammo choices

[Slayer]

I wonder what everyone thinks about old top break Revolvers. I just noticed recently they are all in pawn shops, and they are dirt cheap, 100-150$, sometimes less, and most are in good shape. They seem to me to be the best handgun you could buy for the price. From what I have seen, most tend to be in .32 S&W and .38 S&W. They don't seem to hold any collector value, which I think plays its part in keeping the prices low.

[kiltedninja]

I wouldn't mind using a revolver if I had one, but I only have my 1911. It'll be a different story when I can start buying more pistols.

[Dave Of The Dead]

I like the idea of a revolver since you don't have to worry about mags.