One Pistol or Small Side Arm

[CAVU45]

There is nothing new here. A .22 Long Rifle is more than capable when it comes to penetrating the zombie skull. The best way to insure this penetration is to buy or cache quality ammunition. Personally, hyper velocity .22 LR is way underestimated and some brands offer better K.E. than others. A well made .22 pistol with a 6 inch barrel will do the job out to 30 yards or more. I would prefer a rifle with a barrel 18 inches or longer but that is not what this post is about.

To be honest, as far as one gun goes, I’d take a .22 WMR - - Ruger, Smith, Colt, or Taurus would do the job. I like a wheel gun, chances of a malfunction is almost ZERO and with very lil training anyone can learn how to use a revolver and hit their target with consistency. "I like the Trooper and Smith"

In theory perhaps. In practice, it's a different matter entirely. It isn't varmint hunting. A .22 round can go out to a mile. That doesn't make it an effective round for combat nor would I trust my life to it. A revolver has its own problems, one being lack of capacity. A revolver would be slow to load even with speedloaders which are bulky and akward to handle. Try and drill a hole through a skull at thirty yards and you'll find the round didn't penetrate.

[CAVU45]

I'd go for a .380.

That round is about as useless as a .22 in combat, especially where precise hits must be made. I owned a beautiful little .380 several years ago. It's a good little round for a pocket pistol for close in defense against thugs, but not as a primary combat round. BTW, paintball ain't combat and combat ain't fun. Enjoy your game, but understand that's all it is.

[Zompocalypse]

CAVU45, We are not talking combat!

Don’t mind my shouting I am trying to make a point.

Take a look at what this thread is about.

[QUOTE=stonyman65;350465]If you could only cary one gun, a pistol, what would it be?

A pistol with spare ammo. thats it.

QUOTE]

Against a Zombie, zombies only, a .22 LR will do the job just fine. Granted, a semi-auto reloads faster but then you are dependant on magazines.

Without speed loaders a revolver can be reloaded in less than 3 seconds. (All six rounds)

And magazines (themselves) take longer to reload than just dropping rounds into the cylinder of a revolver.

A revolver can be topped off with at anytime a few rounds at a time. No magazine to drop, to get damaged, loose, get dirty, or to malfunction. Most problems with autos are magazine related.

In a COMBAT situation against the living I’d like a more powerful handgun than a .22 LR but that is now what we are talking about.

At 30 yards a .22LR has plenty of power to penetrate a zombie skull and rattle around inside.

AMMUNITION BALLISTICS FOR: .22 LONG RIFLE - HIGH VELOCITY & HYPER VELOCITY

BULLET VELOCITY (fps) ENERGY (ft-lbs) MIDRANGE
TRAJECTORY
CARTRIDGE MFG. (GR.) TYPE MUZZLE 100 YDS. MUZZLE 100 YDS. (IMPACT AT 100YDS)
.22 LONG RIFLE - HIGH VELOCITY & HYPER VELOCITY .22 LR Hyper Vel. (Ag) 30 HP 1575 1294 185 112 2.3
.22 LR Hyper Vel. (Ag) 30 S 1575 1294 185 112 2.3
.22 LR Copper Plated (F) 31 HP 1395 1172 134 95 2.8
.22 LR Stringer (C) 32 HP 1485 1221 155 106 2.6
.22 LR Yellow Jacket (R) 33 HP 1350 1141 134 95 3.0
.22 LR Viper (R) 36 S 1270 1102 129 97 3.2
.22 Long Rifle (S) 36 HP 1150 1032 106 85 3.7
.22 Long Rifle (W) 37 HP 1150 1034 109 88 3.7
.22 Long Rifle (S) 38 HP 1150 1028 112 89 3.7
.22 Long Rifle (S) 38 HP 1130 1015 108 87 3.8
.22 Long Rifle (W) 40 HP 1150 1027 117 94 3.7
.22 Long Rifle (C) 40 HP 1110 1003 109 89 3.9
.22 Long Rifle (S) 40 S 1130 1028 113 94 3.7
.22 Long Rifle (E) 40 S 1180 1055 124 99 3.5
.22 Long Rifle (RWS) 40 HP 1180 1032 124 95 3.7
Pistol barrel lengths: .22 Short, Long and Long Rifle = 6-in. Velocity and energy measured at 50 yards

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ballistics/22_lr_hivel_hypvel_handgun.html

[CAVU45]

You don't think it's about combat? What is this board all about? Survival and defense. Why would you CARRY a firearm (if you could only carry one gun, a pistol, what would it be)? To plink at cans when your heart desires? C,mon guy, get real. The only reason to carry a gun is for self defense or in other words, COMBAT. Please don't feed me bullet stats. I've seen CO2 pellet guns that could fire at those velocities. That doesn't mean they are effective nor proper for self defense or combat. You have it completely backwards also. A .22 would be nearly useless against the living dead where only a head shot will stop the creature (unless of course you're right on top of the creature). That little .22 is notorious for bouncing off bone. With the living your only concerned about hitting tissue. So a .22 would be more effective (relatively speaking) against the living than the dead, and even against the living you should hope for a golden bb. Velocity means nothing if there isn't enough mass in the bullet.
I've seen professionals who could load a revolver in a matter of seconds, but not the average Joe. Now I agree that magazines are the Achilles Heel of auto pistols. That's why maintenance is a priority with pistols. If the magazines are kept in good shape then the probability of a jam are very low. Case in point; in twelve months in Iraq I never had a single jam attributed to a faulty magazine.
I also beleive you contradicted yourself from teh start. You posted that this thread isn't about combat, yet in your previous threads you posted using the .22 cartridge to destroy the walking dead who are attacking you. Now my definition of combat may be overly broad, but if I'm fighting something that's trying to do me harm, that's combat.

[mattifikation]

Can you reload a revolver in under 3 seconds...

...during an adrenalin rush?

If you answered "yes" to the above question, I have a challenge for you. Try to change the batteries in a remote control... while being chased by an angry pit bull.

Have fun. :-)

[DrDead]

Can you reload a revolver in under 3 seconds...

...during an adrenalin rush?

If you answered "yes" to the above question, I have a challenge for you. Try to change the batteries in a remote control... while being chased by an angry pit bull.

Have fun. :-)

Unless you use a speed loader, the act of loading a revolver requires fine finger dexterity, which you lose in times of duress. To me, the revolver has too heavy of a trigger pull and the speed loaders are too bulky. The advantage is that they don't jam. Everyone I know who conceal and carries uses semiautos and has a revolver as a backup.

Drd

[DrDead]

I can't believe were having a conversation about whether a .22 calibur pistol is enough for self defense - It's not. You aren't shooting squirrels or birds, and youre not shooting zeds center mass. You need to penetrate the skull and you might get one shot before theyre on top of you. The only practical options are the 9mm and up. Forget the 44 mag and the deagle, they are what you show youre friends, not what you use to protect yourself and your kids.

Drd

[CAVU45]

Unless you use a speed loader, the act of loading a revolver requires fine finger dexterity, which you lose in times of duress. To me, the revolver has too heavy of a trigger pull and the speed loaders are too bulky. The advantage is that they don't jam. Everyone I know who conceal and carries uses semiautos and has a revolver as a backup.

Drd


Exactely true! I've seen professionals who could load a revolver under three seconds. They are professionals though and used speed loaders. I'd love to see the guy try to load every single round one at a time during an adrenalin rush while being attacked. It ain't gonna happen. And the fact that he advocates using a .22 for defense tells me he isn't very experienced in firearms or defense. :doh:

[Bob]

Bob is back
Lock up your booze and hide your wimmin.


There is much more to 22lr than the ballistics.
You must consider reliability.

Keeping on topic.
Any Caliber Glock would be fine.
I would prefer a model 17 9mm, because of the high capacity, low recoil, and availability of ammunition.

[DrDead]

The other nice thing about a glock is that you can get the conversion kit that will allow you to fire .22 rounds in it. The beauty of that is that if youre one of these guys that insists on .22 calibur, then at least you could make the switch if you find out it ain't going as planned.

drd.

[CAVU45]

Zompocalypse, Don't take my word that the .22 is crap for self defense or combat. Check out the many firearms forums for yourself. Ask questions of the folks on them. There are many shooting experts and combat veterans on the boards. One that is particularly good is Shooting A to Z at http://www.shootingatoz.com/forum/index.php

[Zompocalypse]

You are reading a forum by “BOB” and “Video Junky” and you take this as the gospel? I have serious doubts that this is a serious page full of experts. (No disrespect to Bob and VJ) Either way, I am not here to convince you that a .22 LR can or cannot do the job on Z-Day. I am here posting that “I would prefer a rifle with a barrel 18 inches or longer but that is not what this post is about” I know the limitations of the .22LR and I am not expecting a WONDER bullet that will do all. I said, “To be honest, as far as one gun goes, I’d take a .22 WMR… I like the Trooper and Smith”

What I did say was, “A .22 Long Rifle is more than capable when it comes to penetrating the zombie skull. The best way to insure this penetration is to buy or cache quality ammunition. Personally, hyper velocity .22 LR is way underestimated and some brands offer better K.E. than others. A well made .22 pistol with a 6 inch barrel will do the job out to 30 yards or more.”

You have provided nothing to convince me that it will not. I cannot change your mind nor will you be able to change mine. The debate is good and, from one Vet to another, in a zombie world I’d never be with one gun.

.22LR = crap for combat. This I agree! One more time, the .22 LR is crap for combat! I define combat as, armed fighting with enemy forces. (Both sides have guns) Zombies are NOT armed (well some of them might still have their limbs)

[CAVU45]

No, I'm reading one forum among several and take none for "Gospel". I posted that there was good informaiton on the forums and that one was particulary good (IMHO). I temper what I read with my own knowledge and experience and double check against other sources. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, simply pointing out that the .22 rimfire cartridges aren't good for anything beyond small game and target shooting, even the .22WMR. That cartridge will give you additional range but nothing really beyond that. The only way a rimfire cartridge will penetrate a skull would put one uncomfortably close to the target.
I disagree about taking one gun into combat or any serious fighting. Grunts usually take one gun into combat. It's a rifle or carbine though, not a sidearm. No one should take only a sidearm into the fight (concealed carry for personal defense being the exception).

"22 Rimfire?
The old "behind-the-ear-with-a-22" story is one that I believe has been talked about much more than it has been successfully practiced. In a slaughter situation where the shooter is close to the hog, there's no doubt that it can work, but it's certainly not foolproof, and shouldn't be tried at a distance. Bullets used in rimfire cartridges, especially 22 long rifle, are usually quite soft, and don't penetrate well. Such a bullet will flatten out on the bone of the skull and won't get the job done."
This is from About.com for hunting wild pig. Up close, okay. Distance? A no-go. Now convince me that a .22 can penetrate a skull at a safe distance.

If someone is attacking you (armed or unarmed) and you are fighting back (armed or unarmed) that is combat. But don't take my word for it, let's see what Mr. Webster has to say.

Main Entry: 1com·bat
Pronunciation: \ˈkäm-ˌbat\
Function: noun
Etymology: Anglo-French, from combatre to attack, fight, from Vulgar Latin *combattere, from Latin com- + battuere to beat
Date: 1546
1 : a fight or contest between individuals or groups
2 : conflict , controversy
3 : active fighting in a war : action <casualties suffered in combat>

There you have it. Nothing about weapons of any type in the definition.

Now before you post that the information came from internet sources I would point out that your .22 information came form somewhere. And unless you actually fired all those bullets and gathered the information yourself or personally observed the testing, then yours is taken on authority also and should be equally suspect.

[Zompocalypse]

support wrote:
From my understanding a Coconut is stronger than a human skull*

here is .22 lr at 25 yards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkFQjSz4ZE8

here is .22 lr at 50 yards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEqAx2SB4DA

here is .22 lr at 100 yards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU-MvYIRAHk

I am not shooting at anything over 100 yards in the replies to the clip the guy talks about the ammo he uses as well.

---------------------
* there was a show on the discovery channel that was diagnosing the force that martial artists use to break bricks with, that stated that a coconut is stronger than a human skull, however I have not found many websites that compare the force it takes to crush a human skull with other comparable items. I have no source to confirm this hear-say "Fact" if anyone knows for sure I would love a link.



Regardless of the fine details, I feel these videos do provide a good display of the results of the caliber of firearm.

http://www.indianahorserescue.com/HumaneEuth.htm
A .22-caliber long rifle is recommended, but a 9mm or .38-caliber handgun will be sufficient for most horses. The use of hollow-point or soft nose bullets will increase brain destruction and reduce the chance of ricochet. If a shotgun is the only available firearm, the use of a rifled slug is preferred. …
http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/extension/Dairy/HumaneEuthanasia/gun.htm

In most circumstances on the farm or ranch, gunshot is the only practical method of euthanasia. This procedure requires the selection of an appropriate firearm and bullet with sufficient velocity, energy and size to pass through the skull (enter the brain), and cause massive brain destruction. A .22 caliber long rifle bullet fired from either a pistol or rifle is sufficient for young animals. Hollow or soft point .22 caliber bullets increase brain tissue destruction,…

http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/page/Civilian+Weaponry?t=anon

…, including the .22 long rifle, provide between 119 and 1000+ ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards. Once skull penetration is achieved, a .22 round tends to bounce around inside the skull, obliterating the brain and in most cases providing a one-shot kill.

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vetext/INF-AN/INF-AN_EMERGEUTH-HORSES.HTML
A .22-caliber long rifle is recommended, but a 9mm or .38-caliber handgun will be sufficient for most horses. The use of hollow-point or soft nose bullets will increase brain destruction and reduce the chance of ricochet. If a shotgun is the only available firearm, the use of a rifled slug is preferred.
http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm

Like most revolver calibers, the .22 long rifle (I don't remember ever seeing a .22 short or long although ratshot shows up from time to time) is most often seen at suicides. The ubiquitous .22, since it's the most commonly fired caliber in the US, is never in short supply, and many folks who own no other firearm own a .22. Most often the site of the wound is to the head, and penetration is almost always more than sufficient to get the job done. When fired from a rifle, often a "lead snowstorm" is created and shows

[mattifikation]

Euthanasia generally occurs at point blank range.

Fights with zombies generally do not, unless it's the goal of the living defender to join the undead rather quickly.

You are aware that bullets lose energy as they travel through the air, right?

[Zompocalypse]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLQyUq3lPV0&feature=related

I am in full belief there is nothing I could show you to make you a believer. So, lots do combat. You show up with your knife and Ill be there with my .22 LR pistol… (bring a knife to a gun fight?) :evil::lol::evil::loon:

[DarthJoe8]

Euthanasia generally occurs at point blank range.

Fights with zombies generally do not, unless it's the goal of the living defender to join the undead rather quickly.

You are aware that bullets lose energy as they travel through the air, right?

None of those coconuts were point blank..:guns: I'm convinced!! :drinking:

[Longrifle]

I've been gone too long... http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504301&fpart=1

Here is a little extra info.

[CAVU45]

:x Christ on a crutch. I feel as if I'm speaking Greek here. I didn't say a .22 couldn't penetrate bone. I did say that you would have to be uncomfortably close to make it happen. The websites you posted prove that out (after taking me to task for using web sites you in turn post them as proof for your argument). Euthenasia is achieved up close, not from a distance. Even the "zombiewiki" site thing stated that (if you can believe it) a certain distance had to be achieved, though what that distance is no one seems to know or simply fails to state. The so called coconut test isn't convincing. It isn't a scientific test and there's no way to verify the firearm the shooter used or the actual distance he was at when firing. I can stick a knife through a coconut. Is that proof that I can stick a knife through a skull? Coconut is fibrous, a skull isn't. Seriously, how far away do you think you can be and get the penetration you desire? Where is your proof that this can be accomplished? If you can show me definitive proof I will believe. I'm nothing if not a seeker of truth.

BTW, who said anything about bringing a knife to a gunfight? When I show up it'll be with my cocked and locked 1911A1 or Taurus PT945.

[CAVU45]

I've been gone too long... http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504301&fpart=1

Here is a little extra info.

Right. They guy isn't shooting at a skull. He's hitting a turkey. Apples and oranges.

[Zompocalypse]

ROFL, Okay it was a baseball bat but I was just having fun with the knife thing. So definite proof, what is it you want? In the WWW I am sure I can find most anything.

[CAVU45]

Baseball bat? I don't remember saying anything about a baseball bat either. Anyway...By definitive proof I mean a scientific test with verifiable results using established formula accepted by the scientific and firearms communities conducted by professionals. Not a coconut test by Joe Blow in his backyard.

[CAVU45]

I almost forgot. Peer reviewed...

[Zompocalypse]

Problem being to get that .22 to penetrate a skull would require one to be uncomfortably close to the intended target thereby negating the value a firearm brings to the fight. In that case one might as well use a baseball bat.

See.... I think you remember now.......:lol:



I am in full belief there is nothing I could show you to make you a believer.

[Bob]

Posting links to pages does not impress me a lick.
I am not going to try to convince you of anything.
Believe what you will, get your 22 and be happy.

As far as VJ and I just because we cut up and our humor is a bit much for you that makes me not an expert on certain pistols?

How do you know I am not a font of knowledge about certain pistols?
Check out the other forum and ask some questions.
There are some real people there with real experience.
Including a couple of LEOs and some international users.

Somewhere on this forum is a picture of my most recent 22 pistol want to discuss what was done to it and why?
No prob, but I would rather talk about yours.

I stand by my declaration that rimfire is to unreliable to stake your life on.
For Zombies Glock 17 loaded with ball ammo.
For the Living Glock 21 loaded with Federal 230gr +P HST. (sorry Darkness)

[CAVU45]

See.... I think you remember now.......:lol:



I am in full belief there is nothing I could show you to make you a believer.

I just told you how you could. I'll translate your post to mean you can't prove your point. As I thought. :loon:

[Gummerfan]

Forget the 44 mag and the deagle, they are what you show youre friends, not what you use to protect yourself and your kids.

No, no, no. THIS is what I show my friends. :) Makes that "little" .44mag Redhawk look downright dainty...


http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z291/Gummerfan/SUNP0008.jpg
(lousy choice for zombies, though!):lol:

[DarthJoe8]

I just told you how you could. I'll translate your post to mean you can't prove your point. As I thought. :loon:

If I understand the debate correctly...:think:

I think he proved his point more than you disproved it. If the point was that a 22lr could kill a zed....

Is it the best bullet/weapon for the job?? Probably not but....it could. Can you prove that it couldn't do the job?

I have a couple of 22's and the wife would be the one shooting them in the event of an outbreak....:lol:

Until Zday....we may never know...:drinking:

[Darkness]

If I understand the debate correctly...:think:

I think he proved his point more than you disproved it. If the point was that a 22lr could kill a zed....

Is it the best bullet/weapon for the job?? Probably not but....it could. Can you prove that it couldn't do the job?

I have a couple of 22's and the wife would be the one shooting them in the event of an outbreak....:lol:

Until Zday....we may never know...:drinking:

"I want to meet your Wife, sounds like my kind of friend." :)

[CAVU45]

If I understand the debate correctly...:think:

I think he proved his point more than you disproved it. If the point was that a 22lr could kill a zed....

Is it the best bullet/weapon for the job?? Probably not but....it could. Can you prove that it couldn't do the job?

I have a couple of 22's and the wife would be the one shooting them in the event of an outbreak....:lol:

Until Zday....we may never know...:drinking:


His point was that a .22 could penetrate a skull from a distance. He has not proven that it's possible. To the contrary, every cite he's posted has shown the opposite of what he's professed with the exception of the "coconut test vids" which are at best inconclusive. Those tests are hardly objective or scientific. We have no idea what type of gun was used, the ammo used, or the distances involved. I've posted repeatedly that a .22 can penetrate a skull, but that do to so one would have to be uncomfortably close. I stand by that. The best data he showed were the ballisitics tables. All those show is how far and how fast a round will fly. :roll:

[DarthJoe8]

His point was that a .22 could penetrate a skull from a distance. He has not proven that it's possible. To the contrary, every cite he's posted has shown the opposite of what he's professed with the exception of the "coconut test vids" which are at best inconclusive. Those tests are hardly objective or scientific.

I agree that they might not be "scientific" but I don't think that they should be discounted just out of hand.

I've personally shot signs and old junk cars at those distances shown in the video (claimed) and the bullets have gone through metal. I have no doubt that they would go through a human skull.

I was surprised that the bullets "exploded" the coconut...:think:

We have no idea what type of gun was used, the ammo used, or the distances involved. I've posted repeatedly that a .22 can penetrate a skull, but that do to so one would have to be uncomfortably close. I stand by that. The best data he showed were the ballisitics tables. All those show is how far and how fast a round will fly. :roll:

The coconut tests say that the shots were made with a CZ 452 22lr at distances of 25, 50 and 100 yards.

:drinking:

[Longrifle]

His point was that a .22 could penetrate a skull from a distance. He has not proven that it's possible. To the contrary, every cite he's posted has shown the opposite of what he's professed with the exception of the "coconut test vids" which are at best inconclusive. Those tests are hardly objective or scientific. We have no idea what type of gun was used, the ammo used, or the distances involved. I've posted repeatedly that a .22 can penetrate a skull, but that do to so one would have to be uncomfortably close. I stand by that. The best data he showed were the ballisitics tables. All those show is how far and how fast a round will fly. :roll:

If you would have read any of the comments in the listings you would have read that he used “nightstalkerbob
I used "Remington" Golden Bullets for all the test. Checkout #4 handgun at 30 yards.

And in this test it is clearly stated that it was a 25 yard test. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2ExB8k21IU&feature=channel
Also included are the rifle, ammunition, and distance from the target.


This guy can’t win. . . He said that 30 yards was the best distance for this round and barrel length. He also said that a 22 magnum was his weapon of choice. On several occasions you have selectively avoided that section and focused of some myth that a .22lr cannot penetrate the zombie skull.

The exploding coconuts were filled with jello to simulate brains. As the shooter stated in his listings

Where is your proof that the 22lr cannot do the J.O.B.? You have provided your opinion and nothing else. Sorry but bring something to the table besides your selective reading & BS posts.

[CAVU45]

I agree that they might not be "scientific" but I don't think that they should be discounted just out of hand.

I've personally shot signs and old junk cars at those distances shown in the video (claimed) and the bullets have gone through metal. I have no doubt that they would go through a human skull.

I was surprised that the bullets "exploded" the coconut...:think:



The coconut tests say that the shots were made with a CZ 452 22lr at distances of 25, 50 and 100 yards.

:drinking:

What the vids say and what is true are two entirely diferent things. I can show you a picture of the gold at Ft. Knox. Would you believe me if I told you it was mine? We have no way of verifying what the distances were and what firearm and caliber was actually used. Let me ask you this; if the .22 is so effective, why isn't it used by LE or the military? Answer: because it's a crappy round for combat. You really want to test it? Go to a slaughterhouse, get a cow or pig skull and have at it. I think you'll be surprised at how ineffective the bullet is at other than point blank range.

[Longrifle]

What the vids say and what is true are two entirely diferent things. I can show you a picture of the gold at Ft. Knox. Would you believe me if I told you it was mine? We have no way of verifying what the distances were and what firearm and caliber was actually used. Let me ask you this; if the .22 is so effective, why isn't it used by LE or the military? Answer: because it's a crappy round for combat. You really want to test it? Go to a slaughterhouse, get a cow or pig skull and have at it. I think you'll be surprised at how ineffective the bullet is at other than point blank range.

The guy did get a pigs head and tested it….. did you look at all the videos? It is there for you to see…. Will that be proof enough for you?

There are 5 videos... look at them all!

[DarthJoe8]

What the vids say and what is true are two entirely diferent things. I can show you a picture of the gold at Ft. Knox. Would you believe me if I told you it was mine? We have no way of verifying what the distances were and what firearm and caliber was actually used. Let me ask you this; if the .22 is so effective, why isn't it used by LE or the military? Answer: because it's a crappy round for combat. You really want to test it? Go to a slaughterhouse, get a cow or pig skull and have at it. I think you'll be surprised at how ineffective the bullet is at other than point blank range.

Actually, I always thought its not used in LE or military combat because it has no knock down power. :think: EDIT: And there are better weapons for "combat".

Check out the other link that shows a guy shooting a pig skull with a .22 and it goes clean through. I know, I know we don't know for certain if the video creator is lying...:roll: I thought I was skeptical. :lol:

[DarthJoe8]

@CAVU45

You mention that in order to shoot a zed with a .22, that you would need to be uncomfortably close. What is this range?

[Gummerfan]

Actually, I always thought its not used in LE or military combat because it has no knock down power.
No small arm caliber has "knock down" power.:doh:

[Longrifle]

Israel and the former soviet union has actually used snipers with .22lr rifles in riot situations.

[CAVU45]

If you would have read any of the comments in the listings you would have read that he used “nightstalkerbob
I used "Remington" Golden Bullets for all the test. Checkout #4 handgun at 30 yards.

And in this test it is clearly stated that it was a 25 yard test. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2ExB8k21IU&feature=channel
Also included are the rifle, ammunition, and distance from the target.


This guy can’t win. . . He said that 30 yards was the best distance for this round and barrel length. He also said that a 22 magnum was his weapon of choice. On several occasions you have selectively avoided that section and focused of some myth that a .22lr cannot penetrate the zombie skull.

The exploding coconuts were filled with jello to simulate brains. As the shooter stated in his listings

Where is your proof that the 22lr cannot do the J.O.B.? You have provided your opinion and nothing else. Sorry but bring something to the table besides your selective reading & BS posts.


Is reading comprehension a problem for you? Firstly, the thread is about HANDGUNS. Is that clear enough? Secondly I have read all of his posts and the supposed proof and none of it states what he professes, namely that the .22 can penetrate a skull at other than point blank range. He posted animal euthenasia as proof!!!! Hello!!! Do you shoot a lame horse from 30 yards? Give me a break. Thirdly, I did post other than my opinion, from about.com, from a hunter specifically speaking on this subject who said it was a no-go. And you accuse me of selective reading?
You claim I posted that a .22 couldn't penetrate a skull. You're either a damned liar or guilty of the same selective reading you accuse me of. I've posted several times that the .22 could penetrate a skull but that one would have to be uncomfortably, dangerously close to accomplish that. If this is too hard for you, might I suggest something a bit easier to read like, See spot. See spot run....

[DarthJoe8]

Never mind :lol: I thought this was about any one gun also....:doh:

Lets try to be civil about this. :drinking:

[Longrifle]

What is Mr. Webster’s definition of “dangerously close”?

BTW, About.com is NOT proof of anything as anyone can answer the Qs asked there. Get some real proof.

[Gummerfan]

If I've got a 100+ pound hog charging at me, I'd want a helluva lot more than a 22lr.
I don't care how many videos show that it "can" penetrate their skull.
(wonder why no hog hunters use 22's?)

[Darkness]

"Ease down a bit guys. This is verging on a flame war. Best stop it now, ok." :naughty:

[OVERKILL]

I live out in the country and it's fairly sparsely populated, so I would choose a Ruger Blackhawk convertible with the 9mm and 38/357 cylinders. 9mm is the most popular autoloading cartridge worldwide and the 38 special is the most popular revolver cartridge so scrounging ammunition should be no huge chore. Either cartridge would have more than enough power to exterminate zombies, relatively low muzzle flash/blast, not so loud as to alert zombies 3 states over and neglegable recoil. I don't feel disadvantaged by the low capacity or long reload times as I wouldn't expect large, overwhelming hordes on my mountain. You always have the option of the 357 Manums if you feel they are needed. If I were in a more urbanized and highly populated area I would likely choose a Beretta 92/M9. There are other pistols chambered for the 9mm Parabellum that are just as reliable and maybe have a couple rounds more capacity, but the Beretta is the U.S. military's sidearm so there are a lot of armorer's manuals available and spare parts are plentiful. I prefer it to all the Glocks, Smith&Wesson M&P's, Springfields, Rugers, Hi Powers and others I've triedfor the simple fact that it fits me better. Not to say that those aren't excellant guns, but that the 92 is more comfortable in my hands, although the 3rd generation S&W 9mm's(i.e. 5906) may have been my choice if the grip had been slightly longer.

[beyerwrestler]

Man I havent been on for a while lol.


Well at first I had said I would use a Ruger Security Six revolver, but now my mind has changed at the purchase of my dads new Neos.

Ive shot it and it has little recoil, holds 10 .22 rounds, many customization possibilities, and its made from Beretta. And once ammo becomes standardized it would be pretty easy to have a large amount of extra .22's to defend against the undead. I already have i think 1000-2000 .22 rounds already? Plus their extremely cheap rounds (box of 500 rounds for 5.40 at the gun shop in my town). Its a very accurate gun and I feel it would do justice at the fact I could use the same ammo for my speedmaster .22 remington.:)

[DarthJoe8]

If I've got a 100+ pound hog charging at me, I'd want a helluva lot more than a 22lr.
I don't care how many videos show that it "can" penetrate their skull.
(wonder why no hog hunters use 22's?)


:lol: I kill pig with a longbow....go figure.....and I don't aim for the skull with it....

Your also not worried about a charging zed....at least we hope not. Besides, humans and pigs have an entirely different bone anatomy. :think:

[Bob]

I'm a lawyer living and working in Israel. In the course of my work I've had occasion to deal with cases in which Palestinians claim to have been shot by Israeli soldiers or Border Police.

As a result I have become familiar with weapons,tactics and rules of engagement.

.22 caliber rifle rounds were indeed used on an experimental basis at the beginning of the Intifada that started in 1987. They were used for only a relatively short period of time. Offhand I can't remember exactly when they were discontinued but it was years before the Intifida stopped in 1993. Even when used there were strict rules of engagement , stating among other things that the sniper had to aim for the leg, below the knee.

The tactical purpose was the non-lethal incapacitation of ring-leaders of violent demonstrations in which the demonstrators might use rocks,chunks of metal or Molotov cocktails.

The use of the .22 round was supplanted by the use of a plastic 5.56 millimeter round fired from an M-16. There are also strict rules of engagement regarding the use of the plastic round. It can only be fired by a specially trained officer, from a rifle equipped with a telescopic sight and at the target's leg, below the knee. Moreover the officer is allowed to fire only when the target is within the boundaries of a certain minimum and maximum range. The officer isn't allowed to fire at a target beyond the maximum range, because the light weight of the plastic bullet causes the flight path to deviate too much and beyond the maximum range it could result in an innocent person being injured. The officer isn't allowed to fire at a target closer than the minimum range because if he should hit a vital organ by accident the velocity at close range could be lethal.

Bottom line, the Palestinian mentioned in the original link was shot in the year 2000, long after the use of .22 caliber rifle bullets were discontinued. If that was was hit him then he wasn't hit by an Israeli military sniper/

Posted by: Mike at June 19, 2002 05:16 PM

http://www.pajamasmedia.com/instapundit-archive/archives/001885.php

----------------

Ruger 10/22 Suppressed Sniper Rifle

The need for a Suppressed 0.22 Sniper Rifle rose up when the Intifada (the Palestinian uprising against the Israeli regime in the occupied territories) broke out in 1987. The Israeli security forces needed a weapon with more firepower then the standard riot control rubber/plastic rounds, but at the same time less lethal then the 5.56 M193/M855 rounds of the M16/IMI Galil family of assault rifles. The Ruger 10/22, a 0.22 caliber semi auto sniper rifle (with 10 round rotary magazine), fitted with a X4 day optic, a full length suppressor and a Harris bipod, was selected and was supposed to be issued to all units, both Special Forces and regular ones. But like often happen in the shoe-string budget IDF, budget cuts prevent the weapon from being distributed in mass numbers and it was mainly given to Special Forces units. In fact, the Israeli special forces used the Ruger 10/22 more as a "Hush Puppy" weapon design to silently and effectively eliminate disturbing dogs prior to operations, then as a riot control weapon, as originally intended.

Civilian unit sniper with the suppressed 0.22 sniper rifle (on the right) and a designated marksman (on the left) during the may 2000 Israeli-Palestinian clashes in the occupied territories.

http://www.star.co.yu/armtech/pages/tekst030.htm

[Bob]

The 22 long rifle vs all center fire cartridges keeps coming up over and over.
I for one am getting sick of it.
The 22 crowd always quotes facts and figures they find with a search engine.
A large percentage of the 22 supporters either don't own a gun or shoot MAYBE a hundred rounds a year.
Those of you who don't even own a firearm go buy a freaking gun you cheap bastard.
If you are an infrequent shooter go buy ten or so bricks of various 22 ammo and shoot it.
Then you can have an opinion, till then just shut up about things you know nothing about.
Zombies are the thing of fantasy and all opinions carry the same weight.
Guns on the other hand are real and many opinions carry no weight.

The factors that should be taken into account when making a decision regarding caliber of a single handgun or rifle for the zpaw.

1. Weight (how many rounds per pound)
2. Size (how many rounds fit in my pouch)
3. Reliability (does it go bang every time)
4. Availability (how common is it)
5. Recoil (read this as time back on target)
6. Capacity of weapon (must be high capacity)
7. Penetration (read this as will it do the job)

22 long rifle rules on all but 3 and 7.
9mm meets all the requirements.

#7
Since we all (I assume) live in civilized countries there is no real way to settle this argument.
What it would take is to use living humans (sorry Darkness) since there are no zombies available and do penetration test on their heads from various distances and angles.
All data would need to be recorded in a scientific manner.
A pig skull or a coconut is not a human skull period end of sentence.

Ballistic charts are seldom what you will actually see if you shoot over a chronograph.
Have you ever shot your pet 22 load over a chrono?
Out of your "Zombie" pistol and rifle?
I have chono'd a few types of 22lr.
It was done when a friend and I were trying to find the most consistent brand and type for shooting rimfire silhouette.
A difference of up to a couple of hundred feet per second less than the factory specs is not uncommon out of a pistol.

#3
Now lets talk reliability.
To be honest I don't know my failure rate per thousand rounds.
But I do know it is high enough to be noticeable.
I find 22lr has 4 primary problems.
1. Complete dud will not fire after repeated hits
2. Bad spot in priming material second hit will fire round
3. Bad crimp round does not develop full velocity.
4. Incorrect powder charge (opinion to account for the ones that feel and sound light when fired)

The bottom line is that 22 long rifle is lacking in the dependability dept.
I keep hearing with a 22 revolver you just pull the trigger a second time.
If it is a double action automatic you also just pull the trigger for a second hit.
Well what if it is the last shot in the cylinder and you really really need it to work.
If its a double action automatic the pin is going to hit the same bad spot again.

I am not saying I don't want 22s they have their place.
What I am saying is they are not suitable to be your only weapon or your only pistol.

[Zompocalypse]

Those are some nice comments Bob.

The problem here is, I did not state that a .22LR is my one gun. I also said, in a combat situation a .22LR pistol would be crap!

I said, I would use a 22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire… Maybe a Trooper or a Smith. As I own both, and a few others, I can make that choice when I need to.

I said, “A well made .22LR pistol with a 6 inch barrel will do the job out to 30 yards or more.”

I said, that the .22LR would need to be quality ammunition, High or Hyper Velocity in nature.

Given these factors:

1. quality ammunition (CCI, Remington )
2. weight of the projectile (30-40 grains)
3. velocity of the bullet (1100-1600 fps est.)
4. profile of the round (.22 caliber)
5. accuracy of the pistol (well made gun with a 6 inch barrel)
6. distance from the target (30 yards or so)
7. skill of the shooter (I shoot 3 to 4 times a week)
8. well placed shot (the flats of the skull)

A .22LR, under these conditions, will penetrate the skull of a ZOMBIE, consistently.

[CAVU45]

Actually, I always thought its not used in LE or military combat because it has no knock down power. :think: EDIT: And there are better weapons for "combat".

Check out the other link that shows a guy shooting a pig skull with a .22 and it goes clean through. I know, I know we don't know for certain if the video creator is lying...:roll: I thought I was skeptical. :lol:


"Knock down power" is a misnomer. No bullet has "knock down power". The correct term would be "stopping power". The movies where a guy gets blown off his feet are nothing more than special effects. "Stopping power" is more accurate in that a bullet has the mass and energy to stop the target and end the action or aggression. It isn't a kill shot as no single bullet will necessarily be a kill shot. That's all in bullet placement.
A pig skull and human skull are different, so the results will be different. And again, we have no idea what gun, ammunition or distance was involved. I think it telling that the author doesn't show the gun, or his shooting spot. Also suspicious is that the camera appears to be roughly 10-15 feet from the pigs head and the shooters voice is clearly heard, making one assume that he is in close proximity to the camera. After the shot he steps in front of the camera and his voice is much less distinct. This forces one to the assumption that the shot is not from 25 yards at all.
You ask what I consider uncomfortably close. That can be subjective, but given the data that even zompocalypse posted with his euthenasia cites I would ahve to say it would be within fifteen feet.

[CAVU45]

What is Mr. Webster’s definition of “dangerously close”?

BTW, About.com is NOT proof of anything as anyone can answer the Qs asked there. Get some real proof.


Mr. Webster says nothing about a definition for "dangerously close", but the DoD does.
danger close
(DOD) In close air support, artillery, mortar, and naval gunfire support fires, it is the term included in the method of engagement segment of a call for fire which indicates that friendly forces are within close proximity of the target. The close proximity distance is determined by the weapon and munition fired. See also call for fire; final protective fire.
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/doddict/data/d/01474.html
How does that relate to the discussion at hand? Taken with the evidence that even zompocalypse posts one can readily assume near point blank range. That's real proof that even your ally accepts.

Now as for about.com: It wasn't a question, but an article written by a professional. Try reading the article before making kneejerk assumptions. As for proof, zompocalypse himself posted cites that contradicted his position. Again, try checking the source.

[edited to correct dictionary url]

[Longrifle]

Those are some nice comments Bob.

The problem here is, I did not state that a .22LR is my one gun. I also said, in a combat situation a .22LR pistol would be crap!

I said, I would use a 22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire… Maybe a Trooper or a Smith. As I own both, and a few others, I can make that choice when I need to.

I said, “A well made .22LR pistol with a 6 inch barrel will do the job out to 30 yards or more.”

I said, that the .22LR would need to be quality ammunition, High or Hyper Velocity in nature.

Given these factors:

1. quality ammunition (CCI, Remington )
2. weight of the projectile (30-40 grains)
3. velocity of the bullet (1100-1600 fps est.)
4. profile of the round (.22 caliber)
5. accuracy of the pistol (well made gun with a 6 inch barrel)
6. distance from the target (30 yards or so)
7. skill of the shooter (I shoot 3 to 4 times a week)
8. well placed shot (the flats of the skull)

A .22LR, under these conditions, will penetrate the skull of a ZOMBIE, consistently.

CAVU45,
Interesting how you avoided this post. Don’t you think? I guess you have no argument with what was written. Just so you know, most LE agencies consider “dangerously close” or Close quarter assaults - within 5-7 yards, perhaps as far as 10 yards, see the link below.

http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/121793-High-performance-shooting-The-head-shot/
High performance shooting: The head shot

[Bob]

Zompocalypse

I have not shot CCI in some years, I have shot Remington as recently as last year. I still have most of a bulk pack of that garbage. But mileage varies perhaps I got a bad lot or you got a good lot.

BUT I stand by my statement.
If you think otherwise you are not shooting enough 22.

Ya know I don't remember calling your name for any part of the post, I was making blanket statements.
But if the shoe fits...

You said
A .22LR, under these conditions, will penetrate the skull of a ZOMBIE, consistently.
I say prove it by the method I listed previously.
No other method is real proof.

"Blanket Statement"
On the internet
1. Everyone is Ten Feet Tall
2. Everyone is covered with hair
3. Everyone owns over a hundred guns
4. Everyone can out shoot a military sniper
5. Everyone is a world class pistol shot
6. Everyone can shoot the eye out of a beer can at 100 yards.
7. Everyone is the ultimate killing machine
8. Everyone is an expert on what ever they choose to ramble about
9. Everyone is Billy Bad Azz and can whup Chuck Norris
10. Everyone is a stud / beauty queen

[Zompocalypse]

Bob,
Refresh my memory, what method of proof do you want. A real zombie?

As Darkness said, “This is verging on a flame war. Best stop it now, ok." I am done with this.

[CAVU45]

CAVU45,
Interesting how you avoided this post. Don’t you think? I guess you have no argument with what was written. Just so you know, most LE agencies consider “dangerously close” or Close quarter assaults - within 5-7 yards, perhaps as far as 10 yards, see the link below.

http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/121793-High-performance-shooting-The-head-shot/
High performance shooting: The head shot

I've answered that post with previous posts and even pointed out how he contradicts his own premise. If you'd been paying attention you would have noticed that. I find it interesting that you avoided my previous post to you. Now your cite doesn't mention a definition for "danger close" or "dangerously close" as you asserted, but talks about close quarter assaults. Apples and oranges. BTW, one article doesn't speak for most of the LE community nor does the author of the article state that it does. Again you're making gross assumptions with no stated evidence. Nowhere in the article is a .22 mentioned. I wrote to the author to see what his take on our little debate is. As soon as I receive a reply I'll happily post it.

[Longrifle]

http://www.americanfirearms.org/learn_shoot.php

The Israeli Mossad arms its agents with .22 caliber pistols. What they lack in ammunition size they make up for in more accurate shooting – because of low recoil - and by firing more shots. A shot in the head with a .22 will make the target just as dead as a shot in the head with a .45.

[beyerwrestler]

All that I was saying in my post was the actual use in which a .22 pistol or rifle could accomplish. I fire .22 hollow point rounds, which I know for a fact if not an instantaneous kill from a headshot, the hollow point enlarges and bounces around in the skull tearing apart the brain.

To me having any good .22 gun could match against having some wicked sniper rifle or 9mm:drool:

[Longrifle]

All that I was saying in my post was the actual use in which a .22 pistol or rifle could accomplish. I fire .22 hollow point rounds, which I know for a fact if not an instantaneous kill from a headshot, the hollow point enlarges and bounces around in the skull tearing apart the brain.

To me having any good .22 gun could match against having some wicked sniper rifle or 9mm:drool:

I hear ya on this one... Nicely said!

[Bob]

Yap Yap Yap
The chihuahuas have spoken...

[Tripoli]

Yap Yap Yap
The chihuahuas have spoken...

Carefull Boob
Re: Bullets, Bullets, and more Bullets! But Which Do What?
I truly believe the 22 has it's place in the ZPAW and a damned important place it is.
Hence I have several and a large amount of 22 ammo.

Anyone who doubts this has not fully thought it out.

[Bob]

Boob?
Two immediate answers came to mind.

1. Smile when you say that...

2. Yes please!

[CAVU45]

All that I was saying in my post was the actual use in which a .22 pistol or rifle could accomplish. I fire .22 hollow point rounds, which I know for a fact if not an instantaneous kill from a headshot, the hollow point enlarges and bounces around in the skull tearing apart the brain.

To me having any good .22 gun could match against having some wicked sniper rifle or 9mm:drool:


So, does the hollowpoint penetrate and then mushroom or mushroom then penetrate? You know for fact? How do you know? Did you personally test the hypothesis? And you seriously believe that a .22 rifle is a match for the current crop of sniper rifles the US Army is using, like the M24, M107, M110, and M14 (M25) systems? How many snipers are you aware of with confirmed kills with a .22?

[Darkness]

So, does the hollowpoint penetrate and then mushroom or mushroom then penetrate? You know for fact? How do you know? Did you personally test the hypothesis? And you seriously believe that a .22 rifle is a match for the current crop of sniper rifles the US Army is using, like the M24, M107, M110, and M14 (M25) systems? How many snipers are you aware of with confirmed kills with a .22?

"You may actually find out the answer to that question, if you pay a visit to this thread....."
http://www.allthingszombie.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17282
"I believe they mushroom UPON IMPACT, but I'm not totally sure."

"Enjoy."




"Now back to the topic of this thread, please."

[beyerwrestler]

So, does the hollowpoint penetrate and then mushroom or mushroom then penetrate? You know for fact? How do you know? Did you personally test the hypothesis? And you seriously believe that a .22 rifle is a match for the current crop of sniper rifles the US Army is using, like the M24, M107, M110, and M14 (M25) systems? How many snipers are you aware of with confirmed kills with a .22?


Hollow points expand on impact so it may or may not take 1-3 shots per zack.
Depends where the bullet goes.

What I was implying towards was all these people talking of getting these powerful sniper rifles and other guns (that ammo is very expensive and can be hard to come by) when you can have ammunition that can be shared between your weapons, good stopping power, low cost (gun and sport shops in my town sell 500 rounds for $5), and is extremely common.

And im not talking about US Military snipers, im talking of civilian fire arms and ballistics. Not high military class weapons.

[DBCooper]

No need for one - three shots for a zack. One properly placed bullet is all it takes (even a .22long rifle will do).

Actually a bullet starts to expand because of a "hydro-static" reaction to the zombie's body fluids (Even thin facial tissue). As the bullet point engages the body tissue\fluids, the point of the bullet starts to expands/mushrooms (if a hollow point the expansion can be more than twice the original diameter of the bullet). The purpose of the mushrooming is to generate a larger wound channel which serves 2 purposes. First, a larger wound channel to create more trauma to the zombie’s brain ... Second, the larger wound channel creates a larger hydro-shock wave to the zombie and high pressure destroys tissue.

[Dave Of The Dead]

I have a cheap little .22 revolver with a stockpile of rounds. I shoot regularly and find that the Remington that I bought has about one dud every ten rounds. So for every 500 round brick I buy, I have 50 of those that don't fire or if I'm lucky, fire the second time around. That sucks! As Bob said before, .22 is not as reliable as I'd like, but I'd still carry it just for the backup firepower. I would rather carry a 9mm or .45 or even a .38 special rather than a .22, but I would also rather be safe than dead... or undead.

[Bob]

Take a look if you are interested enough.

More opinions on 22 (http://www.shootingatoz.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=427&p=3391#p3391)

[DBCooper]

Take a look if you are interested enough.

More opinions on 22 (http://www.shootingatoz.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=427&p=3391#p3391)

Come on Bob, I am supposed to go to your web site and believe what’s posted there by you “Frost”? I don’t think so! I looked and saw your opinion and that is not fact!

[Dave Of The Dead]

Come on Bob, I am supposed to go to your web site and believe what’s posted there by you “Frost”? I don’t think so! I looked and saw your opinion and that is not fact!

thats why it is listed as opinion and not fact.

[DrTom]

Magnum!!!!! dunno y, just a hand cannon :P

[DBCooper]

Yes, this is right (an opinion)… However Bob was presenting this link as more proof…. It is not!

[CAVU45]

Hollow points expand on impact so it may or may not take 1-3 shots per zack.
Depends where the bullet goes.

What I was implying towards was all these people talking of getting these powerful sniper rifles and other guns (that ammo is very expensive and can be hard to come by) when you can have ammunition that can be shared between your weapons, good stopping power, low cost (gun and sport shops in my town sell 500 rounds for $5), and is extremely common.

And im not talking about US Military snipers, im talking of civilian fire arms and ballistics. Not high military class weapons.


On that I agree. A sniper rifle is a very specialized weapon and has a very narrow use. Many military sniper rifles are based off civilian models with certain upgrades that even civilians can get and if memory serves, civilians can even purchase the rifles, even the big .50BMG.
I can't see a mushrooming or frangible bullet, especially one as light as the .22, penetrating a skull at anything but near point blank range. It would seem that an FMJ would be better suited for that and even then I believe one would have to be too close. Hollowpoints and frangibles were made for soft tissue damage, not bone penetration. I really can't think of a cartridge made specifically for penetration of that sort with the exception of the .50SLAP, and let's face it, the .50 in just about any configuration will penetrate damned near anything. Can a .22 penetrate a skull? I'm sure it can. The argument is over effective range. I thinjk we can agree that the .22 fired from a pistol won't produce the desired result outside of point blank or near point blank range. A rifle may be a different matter. What would be the effective range? 30 yards as some state? I've seen nothing to suggest it could, and even if it were possible I don't think it would penetrate consistently. Let me put it this way. I wouldn't stake my life on it.

[CAVU45]

Magnum!!!!! dunno y, just a hand cannon :P

The big bore guns are fun to be sure. The problem I see with them is the time it takes to reaquire a target after a shot. Recoil is fairly immense from those guns.

[Gummerfan]

The big bore guns are fun to be sure. The problem I see with them is the time it takes to reaquire a target after a shot. Recoil is fairly immense from those guns.

Ahhh, but what if the zombies are all the same height, and they're lined up single-file? :)

[kiltedninja]

Of course they're all the same height and in single file gummerfan! :)

I'd think that something that is the most important with all these guns, is ammo supply, do you have enough? Is the ammo of decent availability? What about after all the gun shops have been raided by other survivors?

I know for a fact that my rifle will be useless, I have some ammo for it, but 7.62 is a fairly caliber. I need to get a pistol.

Uncommon calibers would be less likely to be snatched up by survivors, but may be less available. A .22 could, I'm saying could, be incredibly useful, if you can be sure of a penetration with every shot. One shot one kill is very important in ZPAW.

[CAVU45]

Ahhh, but what if the zombies are all the same height, and they're lined up single-file? :)


:lol: Of course they would all be the same height and standing obligingly in single file.

[CAVU45]

Of course they're all the same height and in single file gummerfan! :)

I'd think that something that is the most important with all these guns, is ammo supply, do you have enough? Is the ammo of decent availability? What about after all the gun shops have been raided by other survivors?

I know for a fact that my rifle will be useless, I have some ammo for it, but 7.62 is a fairly caliber. I need to get a pistol.

Uncommon calibers would be less likely to be snatched up by survivors, but may be less available. A .22 could, I'm saying could, be incredibly useful, if you can be sure of a penetration with every shot. One shot one kill is very important in ZPAW.


Therein lies the problem. Being sure of penetration let alone consistent penetration at a safe distance with the .22.

[beyerwrestler]

[QUOTE=Dave Of The Dead;381997]I have a cheap little .22 revolver with a stockpile of rounds. I shoot regularly and find that the Remington that I bought has about one dud every ten rounds. So for every 500 round brick I buy, I have 50 of those that don't fire or if I'm lucky, fire the second time around. That sucks! [QUOTE]


Wow your guns messed up :lol:

Me and my dad shot over 1000 rounds with only 5 or 6 duds.

Some guns just stink I guess :lol:

But I do believe that the .22 is required if not essential to the ZPAW.

[Hitman]

just to understand , in the original post ,he said one hand gun.

for those that keep going on about how good the .22lr is would you really take a .22 pistol over a 9mm or some other center fire pistol?

thats crazy , the mag capacity , power , reliability , and range offered by a good 9mm over any .22lr pistol is a huge margin.


lets see just from 2 that I've got

pros- for a ruger MK2
ultra quiet with a can
not too heavy
red dot is very fast on target
ammo is light
ammo is easy to find


cons
1 dud in 100 -200
10rds per mag
ammo is not very water resitant
bottom end of power for a handgun
needs a fair bit of maint. to be reliable
no batteries / no sights


pros -9mm glock 19
quiet with a can
flush mags hold 15 rds ,G17 hold 17rds and G18 hold 33
very reliable with very little maint
one dud in mabey 5000 rounds
ammo works after being soaked in water
ammo is easy to find.
gun is light weight
ammo is a proven combat round (with a very good bullet selection avail)

cons
ammo is twice as heavy as .22lr
cost twice as much
gun cost $150 more
its not a .45

[Z-Day is very soon]

just to understand , in the original post ,he said one hand gun.

for those that keep going on about how good the .22lr is would you really take a .22 pistol over a 9mm or some other center fire pistol?

thats crazy , the mag capacity , power , reliability , and range offered by a good 9mm over any .22lr pistol is a huge margin.


lets see just from 2 that I've got

pros- for a ruger MK2
ultra quiet with a can
not too heavy
red dot is very fast on target
ammo is light
ammo is easy to find


cons
1 dud in 100 -200
10rds per mag
ammo is not very water resitant
bottom end of power for a handgun
needs a fair bit of maint. to be reliable
no batteries / no sights


pros -9mm glock 19
quiet with a can
flush mags hold 15 rds ,G17 hold 17rds and G18 hold 33
very reliable with very little maint
one dud in mabey 5000 rounds
ammo works after being soaked in water
ammo is easy to find.
gun is light weight
ammo is a proven combat round (with a very good bullet selection avail)

cons
ammo is twice as heavy as .22lr
cost twice as much
gun cost $150 more
its not a .45

now if we could only find a gun that was ultra silent with a can,good sight, light round, water resistant, hardly any duds and good firepower..... thats the gun i would use:drinking:

[beyerwrestler]

just to understand , in the original post ,he said one hand gun.

for those that keep going on about how good the .22lr is would you really take a .22 pistol over a 9mm or some other center fire pistol?

thats crazy , the mag capacity , power , reliability , and range offered by a good 9mm over any .22lr pistol is a huge margin.


lets see just from 2 that I've got

pros- for a ruger MK2
ultra quiet with a can
not too heavy
red dot is very fast on target
ammo is light
ammo is easy to find


cons
1 dud in 100 -200
10rds per mag
ammo is not very water resitant
bottom end of power for a handgun
needs a fair bit of maint. to be reliable
no batteries / no sights


pros -9mm glock 19
quiet with a can
flush mags hold 15 rds ,G17 hold 17rds and G18 hold 33
very reliable with very little maint
one dud in mabey 5000 rounds
ammo works after being soaked in water
ammo is easy to find.
gun is light weight
ammo is a proven combat round (with a very good bullet selection avail)

cons
ammo is twice as heavy as .22lr
cost twice as much
gun cost $150 more
its not a .45

I have a Beretta U22 NEOS .22 cal pistol and its dead accurate, little to no maintanence, iron sights already on but room for hollow or red dot scopes, and has an extension mag that gives it 20 rounds instead of normal 10. Also its cheap and can be turned into a miniature carbine with the caarbine/stock field kit.

[kiltedninja]

Sounds like you've got a good set up there, if you could guarantee penetration everytime, and can get a decent supply of ammo, than you're set.

[DBCooper]

HitMan, you’ve got it right and you have it wrong too. I have read hundreds of your posts and find them most logical.

Zompocalypse stated he would choose a colt or smith .22 wmr as his one gun. Others said a pistol in .22lr and from what I understand it was the only pistol they owned. As I see it, you choose what you own or the gun you have access to.

The argument is, using quality ammunition (CCI, Remington ), weight of the projectile (30-40 grains), velocity of the bullet (1100-1600 fps est.), profile of the round (.22 caliber), accuracy of the pistol (well made gun with a 6 inch barrel), distance from the target (30 yards or so), skill of the shooter …, & well placed shot (the flats of the skull).

Under these conditions, will a .22lr penetrate the skull of a zombie, consistently?

I say, YES It can! ! !

Would a .22lr be my choice for “one gun”? I say, NO!

Back on topic, I mentioned in an earlier post I’d choose my Colt “Defender” in .45 ACP. After thinking about it I have changed my mind. .45 ACP is still the caliber but I would rather use in my “Springfield TRP”. This pistol shoots better than I can and with several thousands of rounds down range I have had ZERO malfunctions or misfires. The negatives to this pistol are magazine capacity and cartridge weight. A couple extra positives are the night sights, rail mounted flashlight, slip proof grips, and replacement magazines are everywhere.

This being said could we PLEASE stay on topic?

This thread is not about the .22 long rifle cartridge!

[DrDead]

Not sure if you want to expand the discussion to rifles as well, but if so I'd take my Yugo MAK 90 AK47 any damn day of the week, with its eotech site and folding romanian stock, flash suppressor. Of course, thats when every F'n zombie in the room needs to be put down.

Bring enough gun...

Drdead

[CAVU45]

CAVU45,
Interesting how you avoided this post. Don’t you think? I guess you have no argument with what was written. Just so you know, most LE agencies consider “dangerously close” or Close quarter assaults - within 5-7 yards, perhaps as far as 10 yards, see the link below.

http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/121793-High-performance-shooting-The-head-shot/
High performance shooting: The head shot

As I promised here's the reply I received from the professional that you cited.

"Dear Sir:

Given the right angle and the right area of impact, the .22 will get the job
done. However, conditions will have to be ideal for it to work. Impact
energy would be minimal if the shot was less than perfect. I wouldn't recommend it
as a first choice.


In a message dated 12/31/2008 11:31:48 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
cavu@ccrtc.com writes:

I read with interest Mr. Avery's article and had one question concerning it.
How would a .22 pistol or rifle fair in those conditions from a purely
defensive perspective?"

So there you have it "...conditions will have to be ideal for it to work."

[Darkness]

"For those of you who didn't get it yet....."


"This Thread Is About Dependable Pistol Type Side Arms ONLY."

"The discussions on Bullets, Rifles and other weapons, including Fantasy Weapons, are in other Threads."


"DO SOME SEARCHING BEFORE DISRUPTION THE CONVERSATIONS IN THE THREADS!"


"You guys claim to be mature, but you tend to ignore rules just like little kids." :x


"Now, back on topic, or I come back with the pad lock!"

[DrDead]

Excuse me??!?

This is the final post I EVER make on this board. I can't believe what I'm reading. Grow up.

Adios.

[Bob]

In my opinion a 9mm Glock is the ultimate Zombie handgun.
The AR-15 is the ultimate Zombie Carbine.
The M1A is the ultimate Zombie Battle Rifle.
These are my opinions, they are subject to change and mileage may vary

DB

So a seemingly legitimate report of someone being shot between the eyes living, and being able to run off is not enough.
Then there is the opinion of Jeff Cooper.
Why is it not enough?

As for the link, what does than have to do with anything.
People link other forums all the time.
I should have pasted it just for you?
You make me smile, thanks...

[DBCooper]

As for the link… it was your opinion under a different name. You act like that is a supporting opinion. It is not!

Jeff Cooper never said that a .22 long rifle will not penetrate the zombie skull.

It’s not enough because as a paramedic I’ve been on calls where two people were shot in the head, by a .22 pistol, from 20 yards (est), and they Died. So I know from first hand knowledge.

Can you get over it, being wrong is not that big of a deal. You’ll be fine in a week or two.

[Darkness]

"I have met people who have been shot in the head and lived. Mostly war veterans, and most were no longer fully functional. It's not a common, every day, happening. But it DOES happen."

"But those were living people, who had some medical attention at the time they got shot, and a will to live. Zombies have neither, so they would most likely die in any situation pertaining to a good head shot. IMHO." :)

"Of those people, most survived pistol shots, few survived rifle shots. So chose your pistols carefully." ;-)

[CAVU45]

I've seen guys shot in the head by AK's and survive because the bullet quite literally bounced off. Bullet placement is everything.
Make mine the venerable 1911A1. Arguably the best combat handgun ever made. I'm still not gonna make a 50 yard shot and expect skull penetration though, even with the heavy .45ACP.

[DBCooper]

I failed to mention, I have treated other people who have been shot in the head. One was shot point blank with a .32 long from a revolver. The bullet entered above the right nares, bounced around the nasopharynx and exited the soft pallet of his mouth. The bullet imbedded itself in the victims tongue. During the treatment process the Pt. spit the bullet out… I laughed about it for days. He was treated and released fife hours later.

[Bob]

Sigh
OK class everyone who does not know that Bob is Frost and Frost is Bob raise your hand.
I have never made a secret of it.

Dude you can tell me you are a doctor I don't know.
Maybe those people had low calcium? :roll:

The article could be total fabrication, I was not there.

I put great stock in the words of Colonel Jeff Cooper.
Notice he said "tear duct" which means through the eye not between the eyes.

Unless I got sidetracked somewhere.
The bottom line is I have been talking about RELIABILITY. :x
Reliability of ignition, performance, and penetration.

I don't recall ever saying it would not under any circumstances penetrate a human skull. Seems that I came up with a scientific method for proving it would.

You are welcome to prove it to me by that method.
If the results prove reliability I will openly state "I stand corrected". :doh:

Cheer up, someday I will be wrong... :think:

[DBCooper]

What method? I am willing to do most any test.

[Bob]

Sigh

It was a joke.
I guess I am going to have to come clean.
Often I am just yanking someones chain.
If I say something and you go HUH?
Whats wrong with that fellow, is he stupid or something?
Listen for Vvvtttt sound, that may be the sound of offbeat humor flying past you.

This is what I posted as a sufficient penetration test.


Since we all (I assume) live in civilized countries there is no real way to settle this argument.
What it would take is to use living humans (sorry Darkness) since there are no zombies available and do penetration test on their heads from various distances and angles.
All data would need to be recorded in a scientific manner.
A pig skull or a coconut is not a human skull period end of sentence.

My original objection to the 22 was the relatively high incidence of duds and low velocity rounds.
This is as compared to center fire rounds.
It later branched out to reliable penetration.

What you should have done is baited me into proclaiming ALL center fire is superior on both counts. We all know .25 will not penetrate the skull except through the sinus cavity. Then you could have gotten me to admit to being half wrong and made me slink off to lick my wounds.

When in doubt just ask me if I am serious. :lol:

[DBCooper]

Bob, you and I both know the kind of man you are. No disrespect, you are an asshole and a bastard. You are also comfortable being that kind of man.

As far as your off beat humor, it would have to be funny first.

I don’t bait. As you have learned I am an honest man. When I sent you a list of my “collection” you knew I don’t boast. Besides I only lie to women.

You are a smart man but you sway from your beliefs just to be a jerk and argue with people. Try honesty, It works for me.

I haven’t had the same number of misfires or duds as you. So I can’t speak to that, It always said quality ammunition! I take that as less than 1 missfire in 1,000 rounds.

It also stated high and hyper velocity rounds.(1100-1600 fps est.)

[Bob]

No offense taken as a matter of fact thank you for the compliments.
Sniff Sniff you bring a tear to my old eye.
We can't all be metrosexuals, some of us have to be hard core.
It's the law of averages at work.

You don't bait?
Oh come on, you have been baiting me for some time trying to get me to blow a gasket.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, I believe you to also be of above average intelligence. Stray from what I believe? Perhaps at times I say things to just be abrasive but one thing I do not outright lie.

No offense but I showed your list to several people and the consensus is you are a liar. I had not said anything because I thought perhaps at some point the hatchet might be buried between us and I saw no point in stirring things up. I guess the shovel handle broke before the hole was dug...

Remington 22 long rifle is not quality ammo for plinking?

I have shot in excess of a thousand rounds of Federal Gold in competition with no miss fires but have had numerous problems with the Federal bulk pack target ammunition.
So much so that a federal rep exchanged it for me telling me the problem was with the crimp. With that particular brand and type the problem was inconsistent velocity. It mostly went bang with perhaps (remember I have previously said I did not keep count) 2 per thousand but the velocity was all over the place.

My original point was reliability, I did not consider a failure rate of X per thousand to acceptable.

You may not find me funny but others do.
You might be surprised to find out how may people like me there really are.
That being said I accept that I am a member of a dieing breed.

I did not mean to be insulting in this post any more than you did.



Back to Topic.
The ultimate gun would be a 9mm carbine.
Short with plenty of punch.
A laser sight or red dot would be nice till the batteries ran out.

[DBCooper]

What gun do you doubt? The 2 10mm-s Delta and Gold Cup? The Springfield TRP? Name it and I’ll send pic & serial # of a couple to your e-mail… I own more guns than anyone I’ve met. The CAR? What?

I agree about the 9mm carbine. I like the Ruger PC9 with high cap mags.

[Bob]

It was no one particular thing nor was it the count.
My friend who died last year had a family approaching 200 pieces.
He was a nut for miltary rifles, I saw him pay over $900 for a bayonet.
My God almost a thousand dollars for a dull knife!
But as I told him if you can afford it and it makes you happy then go for it.
Justify it to no one, just do it.

I think what threw those who saw the list was the duplications.
The most prevalent comment was that it looked like a pawn shops stock.

As I said it was a consensus not just my opinion.
The best I can say is if you do have all them, ignore doubting Thomas and enjoy them.

Oops almost forgot the topic.
I really don't have an opinion about a 9mm carbine at the moment.
I just bought a .308 varmit rifle that I am going to put in a Choate Ultimate Sniper Stock with a Harris Bipod and a scope to be determined. Next is a Shotgun with a rifled barrel and optical sight or maybe a Tac Rem 1100 have not made up my mind.
Thats assuming nothing screams out "BOB buy me!"
It would be nice if the carbine would share magazines with a G-17

Yes 9mm pistol and carbine, a winning combination but if only one could be had the carbine would be the best choice.

[DBCooper]

It was no one particular thing nor was it the count.
My friend who died last year had a family approaching 200 pieces.
He was a nut for miltary rifles, I saw him pay over $900 for a bayonet.
My God almost a thousand dollars for a dull knife!
But as I told him if you can afford it and it makes you happy then go for it.
Justify it to no one, just do it.

I think what threw those who saw the list was the duplications.
The most prevalent comment was that it looked like a pawn shops stock.

As I said it was a consensus not just my opinion.
The best I can say is if you do have all them, ignore doubting Thomas and enjoy them.

I do. . . I am a believer of threes... Wife, Son, & Me. That is why so many of the same. Plus in PZAW having several of the same eases the ammunition and part problems on broken pieces.

[Dave Of The Dead]

[QUOTE=Dave Of The Dead;381997]I have a cheap little .22 revolver with a stockpile of rounds. I shoot regularly and find that the Remington that I bought has about one dud every ten rounds. So for every 500 round brick I buy, I have 50 of those that don't fire or if I'm lucky, fire the second time around. That sucks! [QUOTE]


Wow your guns messed up :lol:

Me and my dad shot over 1000 rounds with only 5 or 6 duds.

Some guns just stink I guess :lol:

But I do believe that the .22 is required if not essential to the ZPAW.

I'm not going to lie, the gun isn't very good but I think most of the fault lies in the Remington thunderbolt .22 that I bought. If i searched through a brick of it right now, I will probably find at least 10 rounds where the bullet actually wiggles around in its cartridge and other duds. But after a dud you can see the dent in the shell, so it doesn't seem to be a faulty firing pin. Only thing noticeably messed up with it is it shoots up and to the left, and its fixed sighting so I can't do much about it other than adapt. No, I'm not going to rely on it as my primary handgun for the ZPAW, but I will carry it for hunting. I also have a colt .45, .380, and a .38 special that I would much rather use than my .22.

[Bob]

I have much better luck with Federal 510.
I shoot a lot of it, there are still some bad rounds but a very acceptable ratio for plinking.
It shoots about "average" in all my 22s. $1.47 a box of 50 at Wal-Mart.
I bought out the store near me today.

[Cbump the zombie slayer]

I would use a 9 mm or a .22 because ammunition is easy to come by and it is very cheap plus it has the power to get food and maybe kill zombies (thats the .22 im talking about)

[Creeping Death]

I would use a 9 mm or a .22 because ammunition is easy to come by and it is very cheap plus it has the power to get food and maybe kill zombies (thats the .22 im talking about)

I'd rather have the 9mm.
Not only is it more powerful, but ammo is far from scarce. :guns:

[bootsy]

i would go with the M1911 pistol times 2 with as much ammo as i could carry (combat vest and 2 home made leg holsters that go down to my ankles loaded with magazines i dont think the weight would matter coz i can carry 90 plus kilos any way) because the M1911 is a reliable weaopon that has reasnably fast reload time and has serverd america through multiple wars and is a testament to americas reliable weaponry invention skill!

[Bob]

I would rather have a Glock than a 1911.
More rounds and more reliable...

[bootsy]

yea but the glock probably chews up more ammo and cant survive with out regular mantinence unlike the M1911

[Bob]

I have both and would choose a Glock over a 1911.
Really it's a personal choice but I like the fact that my Glock 21 holds 14 rounds of 45 acp.
It will eat anything but semi-wadcutter.
As for how it shoots perhaps VJ will tell you what my targets look like.

As for reliability without maintenance check out this link.
Glock Torture Test (http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item)

[mattifikation]

Yes, I would take a Glock over a 1911. While the 1911 is a great gun, there's a reason people have continued inventing new handguns during the century since its introduction.

[CAVU45]

Good point. But there's something to be said about simplicity, and the 1911 is simplicity in design and function. There will be a shortage of gun shops and gunsmiths in a ZPAW making parts availability critical. Parts for the 1911's are all over and wouldn't be that hard to find. I don't think the same could be said of the Glocks and others of its sort. The 1911's are arguably the best combat pistol ever made. They've been proven through numerous wars and are still the go to gun in competitions worldwide. That says something for its reliability.

[mattifikation]

I'm pretty much convinced you've never read a single thing about Glocks, or you have them confused with some other gun.

Glocks are everywhere. EVERYWHERE. They are a police department favorite. Most handgun collectors have one. This means the magazines, the parts, and the guns themselves are everywhere.. And the parts rarely need replaced. They have a longer service life than 1911's. They have fewer metal parts, and the parts that are metal will function without lubricant (though it's highly advised against) and they will function in spite of severe corrosion.

Now don't get me wrong, I'd still choose a 1911 over a large number of other options. They're great guns, and yes, proven. If I had the money, I'd buy one for sure.

But I'd rather have a Glock. As for simplicity, a Glock is about as simple as it gets. Aim, shoot, next target.

[Bob]

I can't argue the reliability of the 1911, I put a stupid amount of rounds through mine before the first problem. The sear wore out and it started doubling.
However many of the parts in a 1911 are fitted. None of the parts of a Glock are fitted, you can randomly select parts from a bucket and assemble a Glock.

Glocks are a MODERN military weapon, that is to say they are designed to be easy to operate and service.

[CAVU45]

I'm pretty much convinced you've never read a single thing about Glocks, or you have them confused with some other gun.

Glocks are everywhere. EVERYWHERE. They are a police department favorite. Most handgun collectors have one. This means the magazines, the parts, and the guns themselves are everywhere.. And the parts rarely need replaced. They have a longer service life than 1911's. They have fewer metal parts, and the parts that are metal will function without lubricant (though it's highly advised against) and they will function in spite of severe corrosion.

Now don't get me wrong, I'd still choose a 1911 over a large number of other options. They're great guns, and yes, proven. If I had the money, I'd buy one for sure.

But I'd rather have a Glock. As for simplicity, a Glock is about as simple as it gets. Aim, shoot, next target.

You'd be wrong. I have some experience with a multitude of handguns. I have nothing against the Glock pistols at all. I simply prefer the 1911's and think that they are a better gun and more proven over a longer period of time. When your Glocks get more than 70 years of service life on them then we can talk about real service life. I don't know that most police departments favor Glocks or that most collectors have one. You may have read that in someone’s Glock literature but that doesn't make it true. I'm not saying Glocks aren't popular pistols either, but I'll wager that I can find 1911 parts more readily than I can parts for a Glock and they'll be cheaper also. I'll also wager that more collectors have a 1911 in their collection than they do a Glock. 1911's are the favorite for competition the world over and are renowned for their reliability. As for simplicity the 1911 has been doing the aim, shoot, next target reliably a lot longer than the Glock and that's why the US Army is considering going back to them. When push comes to shove make mine a 1911. A truly combat proven pistol.

[CAVU45]

I can't argue the reliability of the 1911, I put a stupid amount of rounds through mine before the first problem. The sear wore out and it started doubling.
However many of the parts in a 1911 are fitted. None of the parts of a Glock are fitted, you can randomly select parts from a bucket and assemble a Glock.

Glocks are a MODERN military weapon, that is to say they are designed to be easy to operate and service.


So basically the Glocks are like the 1911. Easy to operate and service. I have no problems swapping parts among 1911's and having them operate flawlessly. Don't get me wrong, Glocks are good pistols. I think in this case it simply comes down to personal preference.

[Bob]

I have not really kept up with 1911 parts.
Have they reached the point that sears and hammers are drop in?
I seem to recall the replacement ones for mine needed to be fitted.

[CAVU45]

Yep. There are drop in parts for the 1911's now. If you want a race gun though, obviously the parts will be fitted. I beleive Chip McCormick and maybe Wilson Combat both make drop in trigger sets for 1911's.

[the_velociraptor]

A .357 revolver. Long-barrel. Don't care what model, as long as it's reliable.

Great against both human and undead targets.

[joerrrrrr]

I'd go with that long ass pistol The Joker pulls out of his pants

[Redfields]

Beretta 93R
Type: Single Action automatic (machine) pistol
Calibers: 9x19mm Luger/Parabellum/NATO
Weight unloaded: 1170 g
Length: 240 mm
Barrel length: 156 mm (with compensator)
Magazine capacity: 20 rounds standard

But honestly, I would be satisfied with a Glock and spare ammo, after all, the 93R is hard to find.

[JimiVengeance]

def glock 27

[Bob]

JV

A 27?
Why not a full sized one?

[detpat]

i prefer the mid sized 19 or 23, but have a 22 with a couple caliber conversion kits for it. good reliable handgun. i prefer commander sized 1911's too.

[F0rgivingS0rrow]

Desert Eagle w/ Laser sight, flashlight taped to top and blade taped to under the laser sight+ Spare clips.
And if there is no laser sight, flashlight, tape, or blade.
Then I will stick with a MAG-08 with 3 Spare clips
Uses 9x18mm Makarov rounds
Never heard of it?
here's a picture.

[CAVU45]

1911A1 or the Springfield Armory XDm.

[Redfields]

Desert Eagle w/ Laser sight, flashlight taped to top and blade taped to under the laser sight+ Spare clips.
And if there is no laser sight, flashlight, tape, or blade.
Then I will stick with a MAG-08 with 3 Spare clips
Uses 9x18mm Makarov rounds
Never heard of it?
here's a picture.

Hmm... you are either insane literally, or a really well trained but not very wise soldier. A DEAGLE?! No offence but with the tape.... blade taped to bottom. Its going to be a ineffecient add-on only adding weight to the gun. The recoil you might be able to handle but, the tape... you know what they say, fire too many times and you might end up with a sticky mess. If you really stick to the deagle then just go with the flashlight and laser sight IF it is reliable. I would much rather a gun with less power but, with higher capacity.

Stick with your MAG-08... sounds more realistic

[CAVU45]

Hmm... you are either insane literally, or a really well trained but not very wise soldier. A DEAGLE?! No offence but with the tape.... blade taped to bottom. Its going to be a ineffecient add-on only adding weight to the gun. The recoil you might be able to handle but, the tape... you know what they say, fire too many times and you might end up with a sticky mess. If you really stick to the deagle then just go with the flashlight and laser sight IF it is reliable. I would much rather a gun with less power but, with higher capacity.

Stick with your MAG-08... sounds more realistic


The choice of a DEagle says alot. Add the tape job and it screams inexperience.

[Dave Of The Dead]

If you taped anything to a modern gun, wouldn't it just completely **** the slide up when you fired it?

[mattifikation]

I choose to believe he was kidding.

[F0rgivingS0rrow]

Ahh.. That's what i was expecting lol, in surviving, you don't go to your nearest drug store and buy some tape. If you tape stuff to any gun, it would be ineffective and i hate the deagle. In real life: Soldier: Pass me that deagle, okay, HOLY SH** It's Heavy. In-Game: Call of duty 4
Me: *takes out deagle* Shoots guy 7 times, guy does not die and kills me with skorpion.
Mag 08 is the sht if you think about it.

[mattifikation]

I bet a Deadle dropped into some nylon pantyhose would make an excellent bludgeon...

[detpat]

even though it's not the most powerful round i like the 9x18 mak. particularly since i have a collection of maks and like shooting them.

[mrlaughingman]

remington 870 with 00 buck - smoke check complied with. pistols suck never carry one

[DrDead]

"For those of you who didn't get it yet....."


"This Thread Is About Dependable Pistol Type Side Arms ONLY."

"The discussions on Bullets, Rifles and other weapons, including Fantasy Weapons, are in other Threads."


"DO SOME SEARCHING BEFORE DISRUPTION THE CONVERSATIONS IN THE THREADS!"


"You guys claim to be mature, but you tend to ignore rules just like little kids." :x


"Now, back on topic, or I come back with the pad lock!"

Hi folks, lets not forget the rules around here. You little kids are looking to get this thread padded, so quit claiming to be mature and read the other 750 posts in the thread before engaging in conversations about grownup things, like guns.

Out-

d.

[mrlaughingman]

Hi folks, lets not forget the rules around here. You little kids are looking to get this thread padded, so quit claiming to be mature and read the other 750 posts in the thread before engaging in conversations about grownup things, like guns.

Out-

d.

who was talking about maturity. calm down dude what are trying to do be our parents here.

[mattifikation]

Somebody claimed to be mature?

Let's face it. We're not posting about zombie defense to showcase our transition into adulthood.

One guy posted he'd take a Remington 870, but there's no need for you to be a jerk about it and start telling people where they can and can't post.

To put it maturely: "You're not the boss of us!"

[DrDead]

Well, if the comment pertains to me some three weeks ago for mentioning about how an AK-47 would ultimately be the ideal zed gun, then all I can say is welcome to my world. I can't help it if certain mods are too above it all to admit when they act rudely towards posters. If this upsets you then good, maybe she should come apologize to all of us.

D-

[mrlaughingman]

ok why then are you telling us about maturity?

[DrDead]

Again, I'm glad it makes you mad. This is how I felt when darkness originally hit me with the comment.

d-

[mrlaughingman]

i hate you lol

[DrDead]

ok why then are you telling us about maturity?

Dude, it made no sense to me, but thats what she said. Read the red quote from her in my post. I'm not making this up. How we go from talking about mushpoints and trigger return springs to her nailing us with that is beyond me.

[DrDead]

Sorry, if it sounds like I'm having a tirade its because I am. I was just making a point, which you gentlemen confirmed. Thank you. Please go back to your regular conversation, understanding that a .22 wouldn't stop my dog from peeing on the livingroom carpet.

[mattifikation]

W. O. W.

You said 3 weeks ago? God damn... you're "that guy" aren't you? The one who shows up with a pickax at the age of 35 on the doorstep of the girl who was just a bit too harsh when she turned you down for the high school dance?

:loon:

[Bob]

Bob just walks away whistling tunelessly...

[CAVU45]

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

[detpat]

unfortunately i think this one's been torpedoed!

[CAVU45]

If it's being torpedoed, it's from those who are too rigid and completley inflexible to allow the natural progression of a thread or a bit of heated debate. If it weren't for a natural progression from one point to another (still within the scope of the thread's original intent), this thread would have died out long ago.

[DarthJoe8]

oop, double post...

:drinking:

[DarthJoe8]

If it's being torpedoed, it's from those who are too rigid and completley inflexible to allow the natural progression of a thread or a bit of heated debate. If it weren't for a natural progression from one point to another (still within the scope of the thread's original intent), this thread would have died out long ago.


You have a point. :think: As long as people aren't reporting and or complaining then let the conversation evolve and grow as long as the original intent is still intact....

Of course if you start talking about darts as the best zombie killing weapon then yeah, the thread is derailed and needs direction...:lol:

:drinking:

[mrlaughingman]

yeah guys thats what i am talking about

[Survival]

So back on topic then :)

I would choose a Calico M100. It's a .22 with a 100 round mag that sits atop it. You have to wind the back to give the spring pressure once it's loaded. If you ever saw Total Recall, the sidearm the military guys had was a modified 9mm version (holds 50ish).

But brain damage is brain damage. I'm going on the basis that I don't need stopping power, I need to aim.

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/119105000/119105163/pix1026294046.jpg

[VideoJunkie]

You have a point. :think: As long as people aren't reporting and or complaining then let the conversation evolve and grow as long as the original intent is still intact....

Of course if you start talking about darts as the best zombie killing weapon then yeah, the thread is derailed and needs direction...:lol:

:drinking:

Darts! That's just stupid! Of course if you'd said 'LAWN DARTS'....that's a whole different matter. Think about it. A lot of guys, I mean people, here have talked about using a bow against zeds. How many people on this forum can actually use a bow effectively? Maybe a handful would be able to do it, but for most of us it's just not realistic! Lawn darts are different. Anyone can do serious brain damage with lawn darts, without even trying!

On December 19, 1988, the Consumer Product Safety Commission banned lawn darts from sale in the United States.[1]. Shortly after, in 1989, they were also banned in Canada.
Apparently the damn things are so dangerous that they've been banned from the U.S. and Canada! We sell guns and explosives like they're going out of style (never understood that phrase!) but Lawn Darts...Forget it!

I say we issue a dozen lawn darts to every survivor on Z-Day! The zeds wouldn't stand a chance!



In case anyone missed it, this is a good time to point out that I don't really think lawn darts are the best weapon. This was an attempt at humor, and shouldn't be taken as actually supporting the idea of using lawn darts in an emergency!


I'd never advise issuing such deadly engines of death and destruction to unsuspecting civillians! Think of the carnage! A zombie outbreak would be horrible, but you have to realize that some things are just to terrible to unleash!

[DarthJoe8]

In case anyone missed it, this is a good time to point out that I don't really think lawn darts are the best weapon. This was an attempt at humor, and shouldn't be taken as actually supporting the idea of using lawn darts in an emergency!

I'd never advise issuing such deadly engines of death and destruction to unsuspecting civillians! Think of the carnage! A zombie outbreak would be horrible, but you have to realize that some things are just to terrible to unleash!

Your lucky I don't report this for being off topic...:x And darts were used in Shaun of the Dead...And I shoot a bow proficiently and would not, repeat WOULD NOT, use it to hunt zack, talk about stupid....:loon: that Diary of the Dead professor guy was stupid and so was that movie....:x

Now, anyone recommend a good all purpose gun for Z-day?? :think:

[DarthJoe8]

So back on topic then :)

I would choose a Calico M100. It's a .22 with a 100 round mag that sits atop it. You have to wind the back to give the spring pressure once it's loaded. If you ever saw Total Recall, the sidearm the military guys had was a modified 9mm version (holds 50ish).

But brain damage is brain damage. I'm going on the basis that I don't need stopping power, I need to aim.

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/119105000/119105163/pix1026294046.jpg

That's pretty cool....:drinking:

[Darkness]

So back on topic then :)

I would choose a Calico M100. It's a .22 with a 100 round mag that sits atop it. You have to wind the back to give the spring pressure once it's loaded. If you ever saw Total Recall, the sidearm the military guys had was a modified 9mm version (holds 50ish).

But brain damage is brain damage. I'm going on the basis that I don't need stopping power, I need to aim.

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/119105000/119105163/pix1026294046.jpg

"I totally agree, this one looks like a good one. I'd like to learn more about them." :)

[CAVU45]

The Calico guns are pretty cheaply made. How reliable is it?

[50 cal]

I forgot all about the Calico. They have a 9mm also that holds 50 rds. You can get it in pistol or rifle form.

The Calico .22lr is a dream to shoot. A friend had one years ago. Loading the mag was kind of tiresome, particularly the 100 rd model.

[Darkness]

"ATTENTION POSTERS!"

"We have changed the title of this thread, to 'One Gun or Small Side Arm' so there will be no more confusion as to what the topic is." :)

"Enjoy!" :drinking:

[Redfields]

I bet a Deadle dropped into some nylon pantyhose would make an excellent bludgeon...

L.O.L

Still laughing at the guy that wanted to tape objects to his DEAGLE :lol::lol:

aren't deagles 7 round guns anyway? That is not a wise choice at all... very unwise

[Redfields]

So back on topic then :)

I would choose a Calico M100. It's a .22 with a 100 round mag that sits atop it. You have to wind the back to give the spring pressure once it's loaded. If you ever saw Total Recall, the sidearm the military guys had was a modified 9mm version (holds 50ish).

But brain damage is brain damage. I'm going on the basis that I don't need stopping power, I need to aim.



True with the aiming point. The pistol is a pretty hard gun to aim by default compared to the other guns. (except Halo 1 Pistol) The main thing about it is that it is mobile and easy to carry. 100 rounds... izit semi-auto? or auto? or toggable?

Well, realistically do you have one? lol

Which is why earlier I said I would settle for a Glock. Plentiful and painful (to the zeds)

[Bob]

I shoot a bow proficiently and would not, repeat WOULD NOT, use it to hunt zack, talk about stupid:

Suh
Y'all are my hero!

[CAVU45]

I don't have any experience with the Calicos, but a few friends have them. The issues with the gun according to them are the magazine being finnicky due to the spring and melting/warping because it's plastic. I also understand that the recoil buffer gets chewed up pretty badly after only a few hundred rounds.

[DarthJoe8]

Suh
Y'all are my hero!

Thanks Bob, we all need a hero or two...:lol:

:drinking:

[VideoJunkie]

So back on topic then :)

I would choose a Calico M100. It's a .22 with a 100 round mag that sits atop it. You have to wind the back to give the spring pressure once it's loaded. If you ever saw Total Recall, the sidearm the military guys had was a modified 9mm version (holds 50ish).

But brain damage is brain damage. I'm going on the basis that I don't need stopping power, I need to aim.


Bob told me about this gun a while back, and I looked into it then. I love the idea of a 100 rd magazine, but I wouldn't want it for my 'One Gun' due to my concerns about the .22's reliability. I might consider the 9mm version, if I was sure it was well made and reliable. Until I get a chance to see a Calico in action, I'll just have to stick with the tried and true 9mm pistol with the highest capacity mags I can find!

[Hitman]

my old company did a trade with them for some custom suppresors . we were supposed to get a .22lr rifle and a 9mm sub gun. we sent the cans but never recieved the guns. I'm not even sure if thier still open

[CAVU45]

The company is still in business. It's an intriguing platform, but I still worry about having that plastic magazine sitting right over the receiver. I can see a definite potential for problems with warping or melting from heat, especially after sustained fire or under- or over-tensioning the magazine spring.

[Survival]

The problem is it's all situational. That's why I like the Calico. It can be stored loaded, unwound (tho that means I lose a critical 30 seconds) forever. It gives me 100 shots with no worries about reloading or grabbing magazines as I go. To me, this is the "Honey, I'll miss you" weapon as I flee the house.

The trouble is, it's always going to be a tough choice:

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w302/JAWeinberg/Cadet%20Training%209%2028%202008/P1080923.jpg

[CAVU45]

Situational indeed. I definitely wouldn't want the .22 version. The calicos may be fun to shoot, but with the plastic mag and recoil buffer problems is it a reliable weapon for long term use? Could I trust my life to it? That more than anything is of prime importance.

Nice collection of firepower BTW. What country were you in?

[Survival]

I'm in Chicago, where slingshots are illegal. Those are airsoft weapons. We do Army cadet trainings and have close to 100 different weapon platforms between about 8 of us.

[xolya]

Well now I know who to go to during the zombie apocalypse! :P

[detpat]

i think that the glock 17 or 19 is a good way to go. especially since you can get parts by the basket full and they are easy to work on. you can get the 40 or 357 sig versions and add conversion kits to 9mm, 22, 357 sig or 40. that's pretty versatile.

you can also get g18 mags that hold 33 rounds in 9mm, or even 40/357 if you want to play around with the scherer mags. i have some of those becausi i belonged to an agency that issued g22 and 23's. i had to go through several mags before i found some reliable ones. the scherer ones are hit and miss, get a good one and they are great, bad one and you got shit.

starting from scratch i would go with 9mm. the new XDM 9mm has a 20 round base mag and i bet higher capacity ones are in the pipe.

btw, the torpedo thing means we've been hit, but not necessarily sunk yet!

[CAVU45]

I'm in Chicago, where slingshots are illegal. Those are airsoft weapons. We do Army cadet trainings and have close to 100 different weapon platforms between about 8 of us.

The lack of orange tips threw me off. Plus the room looks like it could be found in a house in Eastern Europe. Nice collection anyway.

[Survival]

It's a barracks building at Ft McCoy, WI. The orange tip issue is extremely vague. Legally ti reads like only coming into the country do they have to have them.

@ detpat, I definetly the Glock platform is a super stable, readily available system, but that means you need to keep a bag or something at the ready with the gun, mags and parts so you can grab it and go.

[Hitman]

It's a barracks building at Ft McCoy, WI. The orange tip issue is extremely vague. Legally ti reads like only coming into the country do they have to have them.

@ detpat, I definetly the Glock platform is a super stable, readily available system, but that means you need to keep a bag or something at the ready with the gun, mags and parts so you can grab it and go.

you can see some orange on the AUG , one of the MP5's and a krink. still looks like fun though .

I have friends telling me to take a pic like this of my stuff , it wouldn't be quite as many as whats in this pic ,but they'd all be real.

[Darkness]

I have friends telling me to take a pic like this of my stuff , it wouldn't be quite as many as whats in this pic ,but they'd all be real.

"Didn't you do that in the Anti-Zed Weapon of Choice Thread?" :think:

"If not, you should!" :)

[DrDead]

Time to man up and apologize for blowing my lid. I traded a few jabs with the admin here and I'm sorry to her and you all for it. I take guns very seriously, and I love zombies. Probably that other site with the forum on zombie defense with guns is a better match for me, but I still would like to socialize with some of you folks over here. Hope no hard feelings.

d-

[DrDead]

Sorry, one more thing. There is actually an economic advantage for me to not alienate a forum on zombies, as I was trying to tell darkness about in another thread. Turns out I dabble in writing and have a dumb blog out in cyberspace that pokes fun at people about bigfoot. That is really irrelevent, but the other thing probably intersts you folks more is the fiction book I've been writing for over four years on zombies. There are three main characters, but one of them is a soccer mom that survives the initial outbreak. At the start of the book she is clueless about guns, but she hooks up with a group of high risk operators that engage in zombie disposal through whats left of the military. She kind of piques their brain about different guns and equipment, which is all based on my opinions about firearms, and slowly she develops an arsenal and set of skills she plans to use after things settle down. Its kind of the same sort of stuff you guiys talk about in here, but I field test it in the pages of the book.

Kind of as an olive branch for duking it out with half of the admins on this site I am considering posting the first page over in the books section once I get off call tomorrow morning and can log back on my laptop. Turns out the guys over in the books forum have been very helpful to me.

Take care,

Drd-

[Bad Zombie Night]

Time to man up and apologize for blowing my lid. I traded a few jabs with the admin here and I'm sorry to her and you all for it. I take guns very seriously, and I love zombies. Probably that other site with the forum on zombie defense with guns is a better match for me, but I still would like to socialize with some of you folks over here. Hope no hard feelings.

d-
No hard feelings here Dr. D http://www.allthingszombie.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1&pictureid=2

Although I'd rather you have sent Darkness or I a PM, or left a 'Visitor Message' on our profiles, I'm just glad that this was resolved peacefully thanr than letting it come to blows. :)

[mattifikation]

Yeah, no hard feelings! :-)

[Bob]

They really are pretty good people here, they have to be to put up with VJ and I. Contrary to what most people think I can be just a little difficult at times.
I know I know you all think Bob what are you saying, you are a sweetheart of a guy who would never utter a harsh word. :lol::lol:
But I really can be a bit vexing at times

[Darkness]

"Alright, guys, coffee breaks over. Now back to the Topic of Pistols, Ok?" :naughty: :lol:

[detpat]

doesn't really take up much room. certainly less than a bag of guns. the 40 and 357 sig take the same mags too.

[hotlead]

I'm trying to catch up with you guys on this. I admit I should probably read all 46 pages of this thread, instead of the 8 random pages I did read before posting, but here I go anyway.

My pistol choice would be my M1911A1. Mine was made in 1941, has seen every type of climate and taken care of fascists, military imperialsts, communists, and has scared off a few would be intruders. I think it'll take a few zombies in northern California.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/hotlead_photos/05-01-08_1700.jpg

[hotlead]

My apologies, post amended.

[Darkness]

My apologies, post amended.

"Thank you." :)

[CAVU45]

Do you have to run exclusively FMJ through your 1911 or can you get it to feed HP ammo?

[hotlead]

Do you have to run exclusively FMJ through your 1911 or can you get it to feed HP ammo?

230gr hardball only so far, it doesn't like any of the HPs I've tried. Even the solid copper ones sold by Taurus with the real small cavity get hung up and compressed on the feedramp:cry:

I think this is common on GI pistols and 1911 clones without a polished feedramp. I have a new SAI 1911A1 Milspec that has the same problem, I'm thinking of getting the feedramp polished if it still compresses hollow points after the first 1,000 rounds, I'm only at around 450 now.

My buddy has a SAI 1911 trophy match that shoots HPs with nary a hitch:clap:

[CAVU45]

That's what I thought. I had the feedramp polished on mine and it still gets severe indigestion with anything other than FMJ. So I run 230gr ball through it only.

[hotlead]

They've been working for lots of folks since 1911.

[Hitman]

the only thing my 1911 hickups on is lead SWC light handloads. it eats everything else .

[CAVU45]

You have a Government model? What'd you do to it to get it to ingest those different bullet types?

[Hitman]

pretty much came that way. I'm sure I polished the chamber , feed ramp , hammer , firing pin retainer , and a few other areas but I've not done any real work to it. it just a cheap full size charles daily . I liked it better than either my spring field or my para . its the only 1911 that I've got right now.

[CAVU45]

Ah ha! Charles Daly! That says it all.

[hotlead]

OK, now I've read the whole thing, and in 46 1/2 pages no one mentioned the .30 Carbine Enforcer.

Cartridge balistics close to a standard .357mag with an 11 1/2" barrel and 15rd or 30rd USGI magazines that will work with a standard M1 Carbine.

The Enforcer I shot would hold a 4" group at 75yds, good enough I think.

[InkeReAnimator]

I would just stick with a 9mm pistol. Simple, and with plenty of stopping power if you can aim proper for either live or living dead targets. That's in addition to something of a medium range melee weapon.

[3030]

My Ruger Super Redhawk in .480 Ruger. With it's 7.5" barrel, and 325 grain hollowpoints going 1300 ft/s out the muzzle, it would undoubtedly kill anything in North America given the right range and conditions.

On a less zombie survival note, me and my buddy go hunting on this 50+ acre piece of land in Western PA, and this revolver is amazing for deer hunting. I still need a scope for it, but I have still been able to do some damage with it. I got a buck this past year, 30 yard shot, downhill, broadside. It was a definite Flop and Drop. The ability to fire a single round and cleanly / comfortably be able to take game is very important. Shoot more than once and the enemy can find you. Whether you believe in the idea that zombies can hear / sense vibration, or you believe that raiders would come for your gear / innocence. A close encounter with a disgruntled property owner who thought we were tearing down his "No Trespassing" signs ended really quick when my coat just MAGICALLY opened a little and some gun metal flashed. Nothing screams "Oh shit" like a huge revolver =) Just my .02 though.

[CAVU45]

Did the disgruntled property owner have a gun and threaten you? I'm just wondering what the whole story is.

[Noc]

If i was in a well barricaded area with a big stockpile of weapons i wouldn't mind a PLR-16
which is a long range hunting pistol that fires a 5.56 cartridge

but if i was on the run or in a lightly barricaded house id probably go with
a Glock 9mm or a M9 Beretta due to the stopping power and decent clip size


but for style and pure awsomeness id go with a pearl handled nickel plated
custom tuned M1911a :evil:

[50 cal]

the only thing my 1911 hickups on is lead SWC light handloads. it eats everything else .

A light SWC load will hang up on the feed ramp of a standard 1911A1. The little rim of the projectile is what does it. Bump up your load a little and see the increased recoil take care of the sluggish slide.
Either that or use a light recoil spring. A standard 1911 uses a 16 lb recoil spring. If you have troubles with light SWC loads, try a 14 or 12 lb spring.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.......

I like the high cap 9mm's for Z eradication. Plenty of the little pills before slide lock. I have 2 1911 pistols and would use them no doubt. But the G17 w17 rds or the Beretta 92 with 15 would be much more useful.

[3030]

Cav- He looked like he was out flushing rabbits, and notcied that some of his signs were down. However, it was in the winter and the wind was pretty strong, so it wasn't out of the question that they might have blown down. He was just in the heat of anger and we were the first things that he saw. I dont really care if he was the nicest guy in the world or a complete jackass, he had a shotgun in his hands and I didn't feel like trying to catch lead. It was one of those things where you can hear your own heartbeat and you have adrenline pumping, because its scary as hell when I feel like you might need to be squeezing the trigger.

[CAVU45]

Sounds like the guy was damned near out of control. I'd have flashed also in that case. Too bad it has to come to that.

[Darkness]

"Please take your personal conversations to PM. They tend to derail the conversation from the intended topic." ;-)

[mattifikation]

I thought it was interesting conversation, too. I thought this was supposed to be a fun forum. Zombies aren't real, I don't get why everything has to be kept so strict and serious. Sometimes this place is more like work than fun.

[Noc]

Another side arm i think would go alright would be the
SIG-Sauer SIG Pro
heres a link to a site with all the specs and modifications of the gun
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg46-e.htm

[Hitman]

A light SWC load will hang up on the feed ramp of a standard 1911A1. The little rim of the projectile is what does it. Bump up your load a little and see the increased recoil take care of the sluggish slide.
Either that or use a light recoil spring. A standard 1911 uses a 16 lb recoil spring. If you have troubles with light SWC loads, try a 14 or 12 lb spring.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.......

I like the high cap 9mm's for Z eradication. Plenty of the little pills before slide lock. I have 2 1911 pistols and would use them no doubt. But the G17 w17 rds or the Beretta 92 with 15 would be much more useful.


they were given to me by my cousin (he's been reloading for way longer than I've been around ) . I just shoot ball or reload 185gr jhp raniers . the little bit of the SWC that I have I load down the pipe with a mag of ball to follow it up.

[RIP]

Well I currently own a 9mm pistol with a 8 round chamber so that will have to do for me in a zombie zone lol and I have clips full but I miss my .45 caliber which was stolen in a car wreck back in 2005 in Atlanta when after the wreck happened a bunch of blacks came to my suv and started grabbing everything in it before the cops showed up lol.

My best pistol was a .357 glock which I had 14 round clips in.

I do own a 20 gauge shotgun that holds only 3 shells in it though and it's like 30 years old lol.

[ryan112ryan]

I would go with a Glock 17 for with a 9mm upper and a .22lr upper conversion kit

this way you have a 9mm for when the SHTF but could use the .22 for hunting and some light defense.


.22 and 9mm are the most common, why not have both
glock is a very popular brand = easy to find spare parts
.22lr is cheap cheap cheap
.22lr is every where


.22lr


has little to no kickback
is the most effcient bullet in terms or aerodynamics
has been shown to do more damage than 9mm (entry but no exit)
very light
cheap
plentiful

[CAVU45]

.22lr

"is the most effcient bullet in terms or aerodynamics"

Don't know how true this statement is. There's no way a .22 round is more aerodynamically efficient than a Spitzer or any other boattail.

"has been shown to do more damage than 9mm (entry but no exit)"

.22 has been known to bounce off clothing (no entry so no damage).

"very light"

And that's the big problem with the round. It's too light.

[Flesh Jester]

Whenever I visit my Grandfather I sleep with a 45. under my pillow. With hollow point rounds, this would work so much better then your basic round. Come on, get a decent headshot in, and you have bullet shrapnel scattered out to destroy some zombie brain. In terms of make, I'm not sure, nore do I care so much yet till I get out of this damned employment and buy my own weapon.

[mattifikation]

Is your grandfather really that scary?

[Flesh Jester]

Is your grandfather really that scary?

He used to be in the navy for some years (I'm a marine btw) Anywho, He used to have a bunch of locale gang bitches threatening him in phoenix. He lives in Colorado now tho.........things seem to be better.

[Birdman44]

How strange, when i sleep at my grandpas he keeps his .22 revolver next to him :lol: i guess im really that bad :evil:

[Trumble0]

How strange, when i sleep at my grandpas he keeps his .22 revolver next to him :lol: i guess im really that bad :evil:

Whenever I sleep at my grandfathers house I swear I find a new gun everytime, Single action pistol or Shotgun, or really old Mil-surp rifle, and he has no idea how they got there... I wish my house had the power to spontaneously concieve guns :lol:

[mattifikation]

What the heck. My grandpa had a saxophone and a clarinet. After he died, I got the clarinet. If I hadn't been horrible at it, I would have ended up a band geek.

Nobody in my family ever took my shooting. :-/

[Krazymouse]

So, what about the desert Eagle, is it reliable or not?

[Birdman44]

Whenever I sleep at my grandfathers house I swear I find a new gun everytime, Single action pistol or Shotgun, or really old Mil-surp rifle, and he has no idea how they got there... I wish my house had the power to spontaneously concieve guns :lol:

I hear ya my friend :lol: That would be the :poo:

[Darkness]

"Okay, guys. Please take the private chatter to your personal messege board or your PM. Let's keep it to Pistols and Small Side Arms in here. Thank You." ;-)

[Trumble0]

I like the looks of Taurus' Model 100, Beretta M96G clone, it comes in a .40. which IDK about you guys, but it's the most common Police caliber around here so I could find plenty of it. plus I like the look of the stainless finish with gold accents and mother of pearl grips. for a reasonable price... much less than Beretta's prices and I know for a fact Taurus makes reliable handguns... so I'd pick this.

http://www.taurususa.com/images/imagesMain/100SSPRL-11.jpg

[CAVU45]

Looks like a pimp gun....:)

[hotlead]

Yeah, that thing would catch the moon or sun and look like a stadium light.

[Trumble0]

If you have to fight in the ZPAW why not do it in style? haha Im jk... But Im seriously going to buy that in the near future, I'll probably cry everytime I pull it from the holster and but it back in at the holster wear that will eventually surface but they do make Blued models. I think it's a solid platform, the M9 series has been the choice of the U.S. Military for awhile now.

[CAVU45]

Not nearly as long as the venerable 1911 series and the Army is in the process of replacing the M9 with a pistol that will fire the good old .45ACP. Talk about going back to the future.

[Birdman44]

True about the 1911. But what about a Glock 22 or 23? They are both in .40 s&w which to my understanding (correct me if im wrong) have the same magazine capacity of the 9mm with the power of a .45, and they seam easy to take care of and that durability test on them was basicly sheer brutality and the gun still fired, even if it wasnt a G23 or 23 those must be very similar in reliability.

[Trumble0]

I think the .40 S&W is a good cartridge, there has to be some reason why alot of Police agencies pick it. Why the Army reverted to a 9mm I'll never understand. :loon: I've shot a Glock 22 and it can hold it's own, I'd be more than happy to wind up with one in a ZPAW. The one thing that bugs me about glocks is the styling though... it lacks that agressive styling that most metal/alloy frames/slides have. The Smith and Wesson M&P is an example that just because its a Polymer coated gun doesn't mean it has to look like a Block.

[Trumble0]

Anyone by chance catch a glimpse of the new .327? From what i understand, its a .32 magnum casing lengthened a bit, I hear it has some blistering FPS and can punch about as hard as a .357. Not that Im a proponent of carrying a revolver in a ZPAW but Im sure it could put some Zed's down hard. :evil:

[CAVU45]

True about the 1911. But what about a Glock 22 or 23? They are both in .40 s&w which to my understanding (correct me if im wrong) have the same magazine capacity of the 9mm with the power of a .45, and they seam easy to take care of and that durability test on them was basicly sheer brutality and the gun still fired, even if it wasnt a G23 or 23 those must be very similar in reliability.

Glocks have a good reputation for sure. I'm not overly familiar with them. From what I understand the only problem they have is a habit of malfunctioning if they aren't held tight enough.

[hotlead]

In my unprofessional opinion, the US DoD adopted the 9mm because all of our limp-wristed European allies in NATO and the baby blues(UN) couldn't handle a propper pistol cartridge. They also had been using 9mm for decades, and we were the only ones with .45acp as standard.

I think .40S&W is a pretty good round, it's smaller and lighter than .45 but goes a lot faster, that's where it's power comes from,

At the muzzle,
.45acp- 230gr FMJ @ 830fps= 350 foot pounds energy
.40S&W- 180gr JHP @ 1,025fps= 420 foot pounds energy
9mm- 125gr FMJ @ 1,120fps= 345 foot pounds energy

At 100 yards,
.45acp- 230gr FMJ @ 788fps= 317 foot pounds energy
.40S&W- 180gr JHP @ 902fps= 325 foot pounds energy
9mm- 125gr FMJ @ 963fps= 255 foot pounds energy

You can see that the lighter 9mm sheds a lot of speed and energy because of a lower sectional density, the .45 is slow and heavy and has a high sectional density. The .40 is almost as fast as the 9mm and almost as heavy as the .45, giving it a great ballistic coefficient.

[dudeskis]

If I had to get anything that is "technically" a pistol:
Ak-47
http://www.lonewolftradingco.net/image/AK47Pistol.jpg

If it has to be a sidearm:
Sig P266, have one love it and it takes 18rd flush fitting mags.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/Marks%20Sigs/P226/P1000564.jpg

[3030]

Ok, just for the sake of arguing, why is it that pretty much no one would pick a revolver as their weapon of choice? They are extremely reliable, easy to clean, accurate as hell, and they have a badass factor. My buddy has a Beretta 92 (before taurus bought the factory), and it is fun to shoot at the range for a day. However, everyone that seems him shoot it is like "oh ok, he's shooting a beretta, thats cool" and then go back to their respective shooting lanes. When I pull out my Ruger Super Redhawk, everyone actually walks closer to ask me what it is.

Revolvers are so sweet looking, and the large frame ones can make someone wet their pants if it's aimed in their direction.

Hotlead, your figures are off. The 100 yard one is pretty good, but a .45 is packing a lot more heat at the muzzle, and a drop of 30 ft/lbs in an auto round over 100 yards would be impossible, but to compare to what Hotlead said with the .45 acp at 100 yards with a hot, hard hitting revolver round (mine too :) ):

At 100 yards,
.45acp - 230gr FMJ = 317 ft/lbs
.480 Ruger - 325gr HP XTP = 850 ft/lbs

Obviously a .480 Ruger would be harder to fire, but it would put down pretty much anything you could come in contact with the right aim at over 100 yards. All about preference, but my preference is to fire one shot, and kill with style.

[Trumble0]

Ok, just for the sake of arguing, why is it that pretty much no one would pick a revolver as their weapon of choice?

I'm just not Familiar with revolvers, the only 2 revolvers I've handled are my dad's S&W .357 and my brothers Ruger GP100 .357. Not to say I'd thumb my nose at a revolver if someone offered me one... but it would take a bit for me to get comfortable with it. I think most people assume and movies perpetuate the notion that revolvers are slow to reload even with a speed loader. I do like the ability of a .357 to fire .357 and .38 special, but that might have come in more handy before 9mm and .40S&W replaced the .38/.357 as a police caliber.

But when the SHTF in a ZPAW I'd not turn down any gun someone offered me, if mine weren't at hand, or if I had plenty of carry room.

[CAVU45]

Nothing at all wrong with revolvers. I have a few myself. There are two things I'd like to mention in this argument. First, it's a very rare occurence when one is shooting a revolver at more than twenty yards max. Next, the difference as I see it between a revolver and a high cap auto is ten rounds. Figure it this way, twelve targets to hit. The revolver has to reload twice, the high cap auto none. That being said, I'd be comfortable carrying a revolver. It wouldn't be my preffered weapon, but I would be comfortable with one. Better than a mouse gun...

[dudeskis]

It all boils down to capacity. In my Sig P226 I have 3X the number of bullets a revolver does. What does this mean?

http://www.topguntours.co.uk/Resources/Sig%20226.jpghttp://www.best-horror-movies.com/image-files/the-zombie-diaries-dead-zombie.jpg
Pretty much the desired outcome.

But what if there are lots of zombies and they are breaking the windows and getting in??!!
http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Revolvers/Korth_Revolver.jpghttp://www.best-horror-movies.com/image-files/zombie-death-house-blonde-victim.jpg
That's what happens when you try to reload...

[3030]

Ok, well..... :x These are all some very bold assumptions.

First off, firing a revolver at 20 yards max? Maybe if you were shooting a .38... but even a novice revolver shooter can shoot at least the 25 yard range, and a bit more training and you'll hit a pie plate at 50 yards. A lot of larger revolvers are able to mount scopes and even come with the brackets. There is a huge write up on GunBlast about the author taking a coyote from 150 yards with a scoped revolver. ACCURATELY hitting the coyote broadside. It's all about training and patience. I have seen far too many guys pick up an auto and empty the clip in a few seconds then go home with a paper that looks like swiss cheese. However, I have never seen a revolver pistoleer do this, they always walk home with a target that looks more like a donut.

Secondly, that is pretty big assumption that an auto means living, and a revolver means your dead. If you are somewhere that zombies can get into your room and you cant get out, then that's your own fault. Training is what it resorts to, and I just feel like someone with an auto would put themselves into situations that they feel they can take on 10+ zombies at a time. Whereas someone with a revolver would take their time and be more cautious.

Ultimatly you should pick what you train with and know how to shoot. Then again, I grew up in the boonies where rabbit hunting and squirrel hunting was big. Once you out grew shotgunning for them, or you wanted to have some more fun, you went small game hunting with a .38. It all comes down to what works for you. I personally know people who own autos and could put 15 rounds of 9mm into your chest before you had time to realize you were getting shot, but I also had a grandfather who could put round after round of .38 into a piece of paper from 100 yards. Train with what you have. Since this is all opinion, but I already enjoy debating these things with you guys. Especially you, Cav. :drinking:

[mattifikation]

Revolver = No Silencer.

No thanks.

[Birdman44]

It will be hard to get a silencer for most people anyway in zpaw ide suspect, ide take the revolver mostly because im a pack rat/gun nut. The only thing i dont like about them is that i haven't had much time to fire one (i've only shot my dads .44 magnum a few times) so i wouldn't be to comfortable taking it into a heated battle especially with reloading more than with a regular pistol. I wouldn't want to give myself the chance to screw up. But thats just me i need more time with them.

[Trumble0]

Revolver = No Silencer.

No thanks.

Get a Nagant Revolver, they maintain a gas seal between the cylinder and the barrel, so they are one of the few (maybe only) revolver that can be silenced. they come in a 7.62 x38mm which correct me if im wrong... sounds like it would be a beast of a revolver? since 7.62 x 39 is your SKS/AK ammo. but I've read it's under powered? WTF is that? Anyone know why that would be?

[CAVU45]

Thanks 3030. I enjoy the discussion also with knowledgeable people like you, and hopefully I can learn something along the way. My 20yd remark was made based on the assumption that far too many people haven't a clue how to properly shoot a firearm. Time after time I've seen them at the range with their fancy pistols and revolvers. Banging away and not hitting a damned thing. They know enough to be able to charge their weapon and be dangerous. I'm also using the assumption of combat shooting, engaging multiple targets in a CQC scenario while scavenging. While there are both pistols and especially revolvers that can reach out and touch someone, those aren't "off the rack" guns that most people normally have or use. You've had extraordinary exposure to shooting most of your life and it's taught you well. I think I can safely say that isn't the case with probably 95% of the population. That said, I would feel well served with a good revolver. But I also am a firm believer in the old adage, "Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."

[hotlead]

Yeah 3030 you're right, my numbers are off, it was past my bedtime when I made that post.

In my opinion, "side arm" defines a different weapon than a tree-cutting revolver. A side arm doesn't have to be a pistol, it can be a revolver or even a knife. In any case it needs to be easy to use quickly and convenient to carry. It should be used to compliment a longarm, in tight quarters, with you when you sleep, and in case your main weapon goes down. This where a service type pistol comes in, easy to use and carry, quick to reload and plenty accurate and powerful for the ranges involved. A medium sized revolver fits this role as well. In fact, I think a normal revolver would be best for those not familiar with handguns, just point and click six times and reloading is pretty straight forward once they figure out what that big switch on the left side is for.

Those giant revolvers have a solid place in the sporting world and make great hunting arms and target pistols. They're real cool, but a large frame, 10" .454casull with a mounted scope isn't what I would consider a side arm, more like a primary arm.

These are only my opinions, and worth every penny you paid for them:roll:

Besides, I don't think Zombies are impressed with the bad-ass factor of anything:drool:

[Bob]

Hey, maybe I can take on 10 of the Zed at once.
If you favor revolvers that's ok with me, I don't care.
It's like using a shotgun against zombies.
It will work and but it is not the best choice.

This is one of those subjects that gets debated to death and then rises from the dead over and over. It's a true Zombie.

High capacity, low recoil, sufficient penetration.
I just described 9mm handguns and pistol caliber carbines
For rifles same criteria
223 or 7.62x39 I am to tired to list more but you get the idea.

For long range .308 choose your platform.

Although in this area since the run on ammunition began due to the obamination 270 is the easiest thing to find. To bad I don't have a 270.

[3030]

Cav, I"d be very glad to call this a tie. We both have our own ideas, but are able to completely agree with the other person, and that makes a debate hard :)

I can see the use for a silencer, but I'd rather be able to wreck house with a single round than be able to try and shoot a .357 that sounds more like a .45

All personal preference, and what you can shoot well with. I wouldn't bitch if someone who was well trained with their .45 wanted to come along with me.

[Onslaught]

I'll go with the Steyr M9A1. Mainly because I already own it. Ofcourse, I own it because I liked the features. The ergos are AMAZING compared to a glock or even an Xd. The only other tupperware that comes close for me was the M&P. I figured, grab the Steyr for $350 and get the more expensive M&P later, when it's not as new and the price drops.

I wouldn't mind picking up a 4" model 66 in .357 though. Maybe an old police trade in.

[44hogleg]

I would have to go with my Glock 23. Easy to carry, holds 13 rounds of .40 S&W, and its reliable. Of course I would love a .44 (who would have thought I like good ol' .44 hoglegs????) but that would mean fewer rounds in the gun at once, and a heavier gun. I guess when it comes down to mobility vs, firepower my Glock wins out over a .44 mag.

[CAVU45]

Cav, I"d be very glad to call this a tie. We both have our own ideas, but are able to completely agree with the other person, and that makes a debate hard :)

I can see the use for a silencer, but I'd rather be able to wreck house with a single round than be able to try and shoot a .357 that sounds more like a .45

All personal preference, and what you can shoot well with. I wouldn't bitch if someone who was well trained with their .45 wanted to come along with me.

I'll go along with that. I enjoy discussing the subject with knowledgable people like yourself also. Hopefully I may even learn something along the way. Like you in the end I think it all comes down to personal preference and a persons training and comfort level.

[Hitman]

Get a Nagant Revolver, they maintain a gas seal between the cylinder and the barrel, so they are one of the few (maybe only) revolver that can be silenced. they come in a 7.62 x38mm which correct me if im wrong... sounds like it would be a beast of a revolver? since 7.62 x 39 is your SKS/AK ammo. but I've read it's under powered? WTF is that? Anyone know why that would be?


its a .30 caliber round pushing a 100gr bullet at around 900fps IIRC . way more than a .22 lr but way less than a 9mm (147gr at 1000 fps subsonic) . plus the 9mm has a much batter bullet selection , easier to find ammo , and much faster reloads .

[3030]

Why might someone have a use for a silenced 9mm? I'm no expert on silencers, but trapping all those gases would more than likely add to fatally reduced ballistics. What kind of drops are we looking at? Would it even be worth it to try and obtain a silencer...

This question is purely for my own knowledge, since I think that silencers are quite ridiculous if not on like a .22 for recreation or rodents (and let the bashing on 3030's head begin). If you are going to fire a shot, then it should be because you have no other options, and the chances of something finding you after a single shot would be nothing short of miraculous. The first shot usually makes everyone go "woah, did you hear that? Listen...." and the second shot usually makes that same person go "Ok, it came from over there! Let's go!"

Then another point against them is that silencers will make an otherwise fine firearm go useless. A 9mm, even though it border's whether it is enough for self defense or not, would otherwise become useless when any shots farther than 10 yards are fired.

I know I have become a huge ranter on this subject, but I love discussing this and I'll happily debate it until the day I die. I'll say this proud too, and I know it'll bring hell down on me....

I would take a .38 Special +p revolver out into the woods for battle before i'd take a Glock with any amount of ammo in the world. Now, lets start the bashing of my head... :)

[Bob]

Everyone has the right to make mistakes, but don't you think you've taken someone else's turn?

[3030]

Are you trying to tell me that trapping the gases of a ballistic will increase it's overall power?......:roll:

Or are you refering to my stance on not needing to fire a shot? You can go back to the old west if you want, and ask the settlers about hwo the indians would come kill you if you fired a second shot since they could find you. I don't know you, but maybe you're the rambo type. M60 with a few belts of ammo?

Or are you saying that it's a mistake to take a .38 into battle instead of a glock? How about I take the firearms that you have been shooting all your life and replace them with a rifle that you don't know how to fire, let alone go into battle with.

It would help if your criticism was aimed, instead of blattently shotgunned on my post. I have no problem debating with you, but you need to take the time and type out a post that I can understand.

[Bob]

It's not wise to argue with a 900 pound Gorilla about the ownership of bananas.

Have no fear, others will take up the gauntlet.

[hotlead]

I may be mistaken here, but I don't think a sound suppressor has any effect on ballistics. A 9mm bullet coming out of a 5" barrel is moving at about 1,200fps, what happens to the propelling gas after it leaves the muzzle no longer affects that bullet. The sound supp. is just baffling the gas and allowing it to expand before leaving the vents and hole at the end of the tube, eliminating the POP of a shot and making it a THUMP. Like how a muzzle brake diverts gas in different directions to reduce muzzle climb and felt recoil and has no effect on ballistics.

I think the suppressor affects accuracy though, by changing barrel harmonics and obscuring the site picture.

BTW, I'm not a fan of sound suppressors, and think the only good they'd be for is to put on a .22 with a few bricks and make me giggle all weekend:)

[3030]

Ok, honestly, I could care less if you eat bananas or how large you are, I'm saying I have no clue what you're trying to get across since your words have no relivence to the topic. That's nice, you cna keep your Potassium up, but I'm trying to have a discussion and debate the simple idea of using silencers and you're talking about gorillas. Maybe you were trying to say that i shouldnt debate the topic with you since you own silencers? See, I have no clue waht you're talking about because you arnt using coherent sentences. You arn't edgar allen poe, your life is no metaphor, so please try to speak to me like a big boy or else let people with something to say have your turn.

Back on topic....

I am lead to believe they do effect ballistics, but just say I'm wrong, effecting accuracy is bad enough. So if I'm wrong, I dont mind admitting that! I just dont know what that would do to a ballistic out of the silencer, so hopefully someone more knowledgeable than myself on silencers can explain this. I am only going off of a few physics classes I took, so mayeb they are using different materials that I am unaware of.

[CAVU45]

Silencers don't hurt the performance of weapon or cartridge. The ballistic difference you may be thinking of is from using subsonic cartridges. You don't push regular off the shelf ammo through a suppresor. So a 9mm would go from an average 1200fps to about the same as a 230gr .45ACP, or about 750fps or so.