Caches - What would you pack now for later?

[fester_hicks]

Simple question:

What would you pack in a cache now, for later, when on the run from Zeds?

The rules for this scenerio are: the cache area is NO bigger than 10ft x 10ft. We will say, 6 ft high.

Where is it located? Is it hidden? Simple or elaborate?

Ready, Steady, GO!

[DarthJoe8]

How high? 10x10 is 100 square feet but we should also be dealing with hieght i think.:think: Like a box truck kinda cache?:) Thats a lot of stuff i could take.

[AN OLD SHOE]

yeah thats alot of room..almost too much room....:lol:


i guess i would put a dirt bike and spare gass in there...then again i wouldnt have much room for anything else haha

thats alot of room...my bug out bag only takes up 2 bags...and they dont even take up 3ft by 3ft......thats alotof room...i would just go crazy and take everything i own i guess haha

[fester_hicks]

See, what Im talking about is something you designed and buried before the world burned.

Back home in Ellsworth, Kansas, It would be nothing to bury an old railroad boxcar.

Thats what I envisioned, you had time, months, years, BEFORE the burning. This is a cache you could leave and come back to in a few years out on the road, etc.

I had always planned on leaving smaller caches in various places, around the country.

[AN OLD SHOE]

oh i understand!


ok welll i would have a months worth of canned food and water,medical supplies,clothes,keys to a motorcycle that i left in another cache not far from the 1st one...

alcohol and drugs....i can trade those for other supplies or buy my way into safe groups if needed...

[skullwarrior]

if i had a cashe itd have soda and food and some weaponry and a short wave radio to listen/call out to other people. and a dirt bike for a quick getaway.

[Barbara]

Cartons of cigarettes. :D

[fester_hicks]

Well, Im guessing i'd like to knock off a tobacco store somewhere and cache as much tobacco I could, esp. skoal for me! LOL


LOTS OF SKOAL!!!!

[DarthJoe8]

Cartons of cigarettes. :D


I quit smoking 3 yrs ago and if a zombie outbreak happened I know that cigs would be the first thing I'd look for.:lol::doh:

[fester_hicks]

i'd try to cache ammo and MRE's also....maps, etc... needed stuff.

[Lian]

Booze, probably.

Oh...idk essentials that I might run out of and need later. Water purification stuff. Guns. Some kind of emergency rations. Medical supplies....


Booze mostly.

[Victor Clark]

If I had a cache like that, I would probably stock it with things like food, water, weapons, guns & ammo, health items, maps, survival kits, a generator with gas, a handcrank TV and radio combo (they exist), a bed, a laptop with high speed internet, and a bicycle for escape (dosen't use gas, and is great for the theighs).

[Headless Lynx]

Mine is in the corner of my bedroom. i've got a 5 ft long sword for chopping off heads and a wooden rod with a trident on the end for pushing zeds back. I would have tins of food, a map, compass, flash light and a canteen for water. Full black skin tight clothing with balaclava and workboots. AND a camera with spare film

[Spuzmanx]

IF are when the outbreak does happen will you have longterm food and suppiles such as first aid?

[jim96sc2]

MREs, water purification, jugs to fill with liquids, and other food/water related stuff.

10,000 rnds of ammo minimum per caliber of weapon (figure a pistol and rifle caliber) along with weapon cleaning/maintenence/repair supplies.

Updated topographical and street maps, gps, etc.

Pick, warhammer, and katana.

Heavy duty travel bags.

First aid bag.

Seriously, 10x10 is the size of the average shed, I could pack a few years worth of stuff in that.

[jim96sc2]

Nevermind, I figure I'll just stash 20 AR-15's, 20 extra uppers, and 10,000,000 rnds of ammo.

[Slash Maraud]

For a full blown Zed event, everyone has to think long term. From what I've read, most of the posts in this thread relate to using your home or domicile to store supplies. Good idea to start with but eventually you're going to need to leave for whatever reason.

If you planned ahead and had a remote safe house to retreat to, then you should also have resupply points along the way. Forget using storage sheds of the 8X8 or 10X10 size. Look into the PODS system. Portable On Demand Storage now available through Home Depot. It looks like a small semi-trailer box without the wheels and can be delivered anywhere. It requires a monthly rental fee or you can purchase them. Another consideration is the actual 48'-53'- semi box delivered somewhere of your choosing for storage. Way more space for all kinds of goodies and you can actually bury them with proper backfill and support so that the interior temp stays cool enough for long term storage of perishable food. At 60degrees, MREs will last 84months in storage.

Getting back on topic, what to store now for later. If you have a primary weapon(s), then a secondary set with replacement/repair parts, if its a firearm, extra firing pins, barrel maybe consider exchanging the standard barrel for a heavy barrel, spare parts, grips, cleaning equipment including solvent tub, reloading equipment, extra magazines, powder, shells, and primers. I mention extra magazines because its doubtful that you'll be taking the time to police up your spent mags when fighting off Zed atacks.

Water is nice to store but you need to check it every 3-6 months based on where its stored and how, there are 55gallon barrels or one company makes the water bag that be stored under a bed. Also never store water in close proximity to gas, paints, solvents or chemicals and make sure your water storage containers are for potable water. Water purification equipment like a Berkefield system plus a back up like the MSR purification system. Replacement clothing as odds are real high that what you have on at the time of a Zed event will get heavily soiled, torn and severely abused. Sleeping bags, shelter half or poncho, medical supplies, first aid handbook and also a copy of 'When then is no Doctor', a couple pairs of replacement boots.

Food would be long term freeze-dried or MRE style, at least a years worth, that comes up to about 1000lbs total and can be purchased in those increments. Long life batteries or Code Red batteries which have an indefinite shelf life. Code Red batteries require you to twist the top to mix the chemicals so the batteries aren't 'live' until then and come in the standard sizes of AA, D and C. Coast Guard approved retort water, thats water thats in Capri Sun like packages and has a shelf life of 5+ years.

A few thousand rounds of ammo for my primary weapon and back up plus reloading dies for those calibers. Maybe toss in a shotgun for close assault plus the required reloading equipment.

All this can fit into a storage unit, a utility storage shed or a POD unit. Just make sure whatever canned food you store you rotate every 3-6 months and discard any swollen, dented or rusty cans.

[Devilspaintbrush]

For a full blown Zed event, everyone has to think long term. From what I've read, most of the posts in this thread relate to using your home or domicile to store supplies. Good idea to start with but eventually you're going to need to leave for whatever reason.

If you planned ahead and had a remote safe house to retreat to, then you should also have resupply points along the way. Forget using storage sheds of the 8X8 or 10X10 size. Look into the PODS system. Portable On Demand Storage now available through Home Depot. It looks like a small semi-trailer box without the wheels and can be delivered anywhere. It requires a monthly rental fee or you can purchase them. Another consideration is the actual 48'-53'- semi box delivered somewhere of your choosing for storage. Way more space for all kinds of goodies and you can actually bury them with proper backfill and support so that the interior temp stays cool enough for long term storage of perishable food. At 60degrees, MREs will last 84months in storage.

Getting back on topic, what to store now for later. If you have a primary weapon(s), then a secondary set with replacement/repair parts, if its a firearm, extra firing pins, barrel maybe consider exchanging the standard barrel for a heavy barrel, spare parts, grips, cleaning equipment including solvent tub, reloading equipment, extra magazines, powder, shells, and primers. I mention extra magazines because its doubtful that you'll be taking the time to police up your spent mags when fighting off Zed atacks.

Water is nice to store but you need to check it every 3-6 months based on where its stored and how, there are 55gallon barrels or one company makes the water bag that be stored under a bed. Also never store water in close proximity to gas, paints, solvents or chemicals and make sure your water storage containers are for potable water. Water purification equipment like a Berkefield system plus a back up like the MSR purification system. Replacement clothing as odds are real high that what you have on at the time of a Zed event will get heavily soiled, torn and severely abused. Sleeping bags, shelter half or poncho, medical supplies, first aid handbook and also a copy of 'When then is no Doctor', a couple pairs of replacement boots.

Food would be long term freeze-dried or MRE style, at least a years worth, that comes up to about 1000lbs total and can be purchased in those increments. Long life batteries or Code Red batteries which have an indefinite shelf life. Code Red batteries require you to twist the top to mix the chemicals so the batteries aren't 'live' until then and come in the standard sizes of AA, D and C. Coast Guard approved retort water, thats water thats in Capri Sun like packages and has a shelf life of 5+ years.

A few thousand rounds of ammo for my primary weapon and back up plus reloading dies for those calibers. Maybe toss in a shotgun for close assault plus the required reloading equipment.

All this can fit into a storage unit, a utility storage shed or a POD unit. Just make sure whatever canned food you store you rotate every 3-6 months and discard any swollen, dented or rusty cans.

cannot argue with this post

I would add a couple things of course

first aid supplies/vitamins


Beekeeping stuff (queens and hives) would also be something I would go after for long term food and its medicinal properties

seeds for a large garden (okra, squash, tomatoes and potatoes)

large plastic barrels for rainwater and water purification

gallons of 2% tincture of Iodine for first aid and water purification

[Evil Pug]

90% ammo.
10% first-aid supplies.

[Cortexx]

if i had a cashe itd have soda and food and some weaponry and a short wave radio to listen/call out to other people. and a dirt bike for a quick getaway.

Dirt bike may not be a good idea I would go for an ATV you can handle that better then a dirt bike and most are 4x4

[Jimmy]

My Quad, Guns, Ammo, Fiji Bottled water, BeefJerky, and that's about it.

Everything else I needed I could easily find around the city.

[martenbroadcloak]

If I understand what you mean, I'd probably pack reference materials for how to repair and jury-rig things like generators and such, guns if I could (semi-auto handgun) but I'm in Australia and we're unfortunately strict with who gets them, some high-strength rockclimbing rope, a strong but lightweight backpack, military rations, swedish firesteel for making fire (surprisingly cheap), a good knife (preferably a gravity blade), some good hiking clothes and boots and a bloody volleyball named wilson

[DemonChild]

Hola peoples. I'm alread living in the middle of nowhere so, yeah. I'm pretty sure that my property is large enought to locate several caches of that size around the place. I've also got an idea to fence the entire place off. 8' high, reinforced concrete with electrified razorwire round the top. But that's a bit off topic, so here's a list of stuff I'd put in there:
Tons of ammo, a few assault rifles (even though I don't like using them, I'm not stupid), explosive devices, MRE's, canned stuff, tons of ramen, knives, swords, gas, a generator, medical supplies, vodka is a must in a situation like that, seeds for edible plantlife like someone else said, a radio, TV, DVD player, and since I'd probably have more than one...building supplies. :D Hey, you gotta do something, and I'm good at building things...sooo. I've also got a small lake...or a really big pond, not sure what it is. But I know there's fish in it. I'd include fishing equipment. I'd also probably dig a moat around the fence...and put piranha in it.

[garthaman]

Lets start off on what it would be. I would have to pick this old house up on a hill overlooking the highway that comes into the city. Considering there wouldn't be any traffic, the viewpoint would allow me to see far enough out to see any approaching zeds, military, or looters.

The shack is a little bigger than 10X10, but i'll just use 1 corner for my cache, and the rest i'll consider working/resting area.

For my cache, I would include:

Wood and Steel panneling for repairs and reinforcment
Basic Toolbox (2x by 1/2x)
enough canned food for 5 months
a camp stove, and 4 propane tanks
a shotgun
5 boxes of shotgun shells
a hunting knife
a high-powered rifle
2 boxes of rifle ammo
50gal drum of water
basic survival kit/health kit

I also have all these things, just not ready to go

I can trust that the shack is safe because I put locks on it, and it has no windows. I can also trust that it won't be demolished because it is in the historic zone (where you can't add onto, remove from, or demolish anything)

tell me if you think that i'm prepared enough

[Umbrela]

Wait a minute, if we bury these storage compartments, hpw are we supposed to dig them up by ourselves.

[DemonChild]

I guess with a trap door to get into them with a rope ladder or something.

[Umbrela]

I guess with a trap door to get into them with a rope ladder or something.That would work, so long as you hide it well, but place it in an area you recognize.

[DemonChild]

Since I'd probably forget, I'd most likely hide it in plain site.

[Umbrela]

But if you hide it in plain site, I could all but promise you it would have been plundered by the time you get there. If you're really unlucky, it could actually have a zed or two trapped in it.

[JakAttak]

stainless steel lock box in my attic loaded with m.r.e's and aid kit. ammo and guns are already in my house so I don't have to worry about that

[DemonChild]

good point, not going to hide it in plain site... Probably just going to put it somewhere on muh property like I said before.

[JakAttak]

don't want it somewhere you forget it has to be in arms reach maybe hidden in plain sight

[seeker28]

The explosives someone mentioned are a great idea. Also, along that line, extra MRE heaters can be used as explosives.

I would want water purification stuff, as water is very heavy and hard to store. I would want bicycles. Also tools and manuals on how to repair everything.

[JakAttak]

explosives are okay but you shouldn't use them directly against Z's

[Slayer]

Ammuntion
Weapons
Food
Water
Gasoline

More or less basic thing's you would need to survive in a zombie situation. Other things you might need is spare parts for guns, cleaning supplies for them. And also some basic things to keep your vehicle in running order, spare tires, oil, transmission fluid, tools, etc.

[john154]

Shovels, Axes, machetes, Rope & pully
Bushell of sandbags & guntape
preserved food/MRE/IMP ect
50 ish liters of water
small generator
empty jerry cans/narrow and wide sugical tubing
fuel stabilizer
500 rnd 9mm, 200 rnd buckshot, 2000 rnd 7.62x39, 2000 rnd 7.62x51/.308
pair of SKS, cheap shotgun & m14
alcohol/marajuana/tobacco/toilet paper
trauma kit.
a few 100L backpacks
flashlights & a few large lamps with batteries & extension cords
books & magazines
Blankets/extra clothes/wet naps/ hand sanitizer:)

[JakAttak]

basically anything that will quickly become a necessary commodity after Z day hits.

[martenbroadcloak]

Dehydrated rations
Guns and ammo (not the magazine, handguns especially)
Water purifiers
Comprehensive first aid kit
Guns and ammo (the magazine)
40 channel radio
Lots of spray paint
shitloads of duct tape, because everything can be fixed with duct tape

Depending on how much cash I would have to spend I'd also include an SUV, customized to have a second engine and cow catcher, to give more power faster so I don't need to worry about getting caught in the middle of a zed crowd because I was slowed down too much

[mattifikation]

I know we have a gear thread, but I think this one particular item is deserving of its own attention. When putting together your gear list, everything is a moot point if you don't have something to carry it in. In a way, you could argue that the most important piece of your disaster kit is the bag itself. It's the part of your kit that keeps everything else safe, organized, portable, and accessible.

So with that in mind, what are the ideal features of a Bug Out Bag? What bag do you use now, what do you like about it, and what would you change? Remember, this isn't a thread about what goes in the bag, and I will rip anyone a new asshole who tries to turn it into one. It's a thread about the bag itself!

I'm in need of a new bag. The one I have now is just a camo colored Wal-Mart job. It's overloaded with straps and fasteners which have no use I've been able to discern, it's got a few extremely small accessory pouches that are too small for anything and one huge cavern for everything you have to get lost in. I hate it.

[mattifikation]

Sigh.

Check the signature, peeps.

[CAVU45]

I'm trying to understand what the type of bag or pack one carries has to do with caching supplies.

[mattifikation]

Nothing.

Absofvckinglutely nothing, which is often the case with these annoying, ridiculous super threads. I love how the "family or friends" thread ended up in the "choose one person" thread. I suppose we're all expected to have one family member and one friend.

Whatever. This post will probably get deleted. I'm sick of this though, and I've been lurking another board lately that not only doesn't do this crap but it also doesn't have the constant influx of stupid 14 year old posers that we get here.

Since I'll probably be making that my new zombie survival discussion home, I'll just keep posting these rants until they ban me here or learn how to run a web site. What the hell ever, at this point.

[hotlead]

Awesome Matt, your thread got merged with one that hasn't been looked at in FOURTEEN MONTHS!!! I'm impressed :x

Anyway, a medium ALICE pack would be a great BOB. Real tough, pretty cheap, can be used with or without the frame, good arrangment of pockets, and not over-burdened with straps and buckles all over. I have a few of these myself, not overly comfortable, but gets the job done.

[steve2071]

I know we have a gear thread, but I think this one particular item is deserving of its own attention. When putting together your gear list, everything is a moot point if you don't have something to carry it in. In a way, you could argue that the most important piece of your disaster kit is the bag itself. It's the part of your kit that keeps everything else safe, organized, portable, and accessible.

So with that in mind, what are the ideal features of a Bug Out Bag? What bag do you use now, what do you like about it, and what would you change? Remember, this isn't a thread about what goes in the bag, and I will rip anyone a new asshole who tries to turn it into one. It's a thread about the bag itself!

I'm in need of a new bag. The one I have now is just a camo colored Wal-Mart job. It's overloaded with straps and fasteners which have no use I've been able to discern, it's got a few extremely small accessory pouches that are too small for anything and one huge cavern for everything you have to get lost in. I hate it.

BTW, Matt, I sympathize with your grievances 100%. As for the following about a BOB, these are just my thoughts. They may not necessarily be the right thoughts, but I'm just putting it out there. Others' opinions may differ and be more practical.

Bear with me because I think this is going to be extremely long-winded.

I think as far as ideal features go for a BOB, firstly, it must be large enough to accommodate your junk. Then it must be robust. Tough enough to take a beating, bear the load of your gear and not fail when you need it the most. Third, it must be practical and non-problematic as far as ergonomics go, and Lastly it must be extremely comfortable. IF the proverbial excrement hits the fan, there will be a very high probability that you will be humping this sucker around for miles if your vehicle is out of commission. There is also the optional "grey man" criteria of being inconspicuous in times of chaos and panic. An ILBE pack made of Multicam is going to attract some undesired attention from others, so you may want to keep that issue in mind as well.

I keep a number of different bags for different purposes (though mostly for traveling). On the size spectrum of packs, the largest I have is a Mystery Ranch Orion pack. 6100 cubes, and comfortable as heck, but it gets bulky fast and is extremely unwieldy in tight spaces. Next down the line, I have an Eberlestock Gunslinger. It's 2500 cubes and is my favorite pack. Not too large and carries real comfy. In addition, it's got a scabbard for a rifle and will fit an AR-15 with a mag, though you have to collapse the stock. For the times which I don't really need to hump a rifle with me (which is all the time), I've found that this compartment fits a sweater and 17" laptop real good. For a 72 hour pack, I use a Maxpedition Pygmy Falcon II and the ATS RAID pack. Nice little packs that carry a good deal of stuff and are built like a tank. The RAID pack is good because it has a full panel of PALS webbing on the front so I can arrange a number of external pouches to my liking. These two packs are nice because they have grommets at the bottom to drain out water in the event you have an unfortunate kayak incident in Big Bear Lake and destroy your iPhone and have to pay $300 for another one. All of my packs are Coyote Brown because, it's a good neutral color that won't attract too much attention like a camo or black one would.

As with everything, price is also a issue and when choosing a pack, it can get expensive. Just remember though, you do get what you pay for and you don't want to start getting holes in it when you're hoofing down the Pan-American highway to get to the place where the government keeps the secret spaceships in the event they need to evacuate the Earth. I find that a trip to REI can get you a nice pack that is robust and economical and will get you through the apocalypse just fine.

Well, that was long. Hope this helps. :)

[ZackWelder]

G'day folks.

Recently I've been contemplating putting up a shelf in some of the rooms in the house. The shelf should not be too big, and its primary purpose would be to hold and display the most necessary of supplies for use in a zombie survival situation.

Use Case
You are sitting on the couch enjoying an ice cold soda pop watching the last DVD in your box set of Little House on the Prairie when you hear the front door open. You don't recall anyone needing to come home at this time, and when you turn around, you come face to face with a bloody, ragged, snarling stranger. You think, no, this just can't be happening as you jump and run for your life. The real-life zombie is chasing after you. What do you do!? Where do you go!?

ANSWER
You calmly walk over to your Zombie Survival Cabinet/Shelf that you installed in every room of the house just the week before.

QUESTION
Seriously now, having the Zombie Cabinet/Shelf is all fine and dandy, but it means nothing if the gear stored within is not suitable for life-threatening situations. WHAT is on YOUR Zombie Survival Cabinet?

Alright Slayers, let everyone know what's in your cabinet. The idea is that this gear will be on display and easy to access in a chaotic situation. Try to be realistic and list only what you have direct access to, otherwise you'll have defeated the purpose of this exercise.


For Example:

ZackWelder's Zombie Survival Shelf

Kitchen: Machete, First Aid, Flashlights, Potato Sack
Family Room: Baseball Bat, First Aid, Flare Gun w/flares
Computer Room: Two Hand Axes, First Aid, Strobe Light
Bed Room: Cricket Bat, First Aid, Flashlights, Potato Sack

*For questions concerning Potato Sack and Strobe Lights: Potato Sack over a zombie's head both blinds and prevents the zombie from directing biting. Strobe Lights /*may*/ blind zombies depend on the "type".

Alright guys, let's all hear what you've got on your house's shelves.
The neighbors may laugh when they see your gear on display but we all know who the joke is really on.

[Dark Gale]

Most people here already have a B.o.B that would take only a few seconds to grab. if they were say 2 rooms a way, just grab an improvised weapon and walk/run to get your actual gear. I wouldn't see the need for any sort of "survival shelf" to be sued, especially since having one in each room would spread your gear out making it harder to gather it all up for when you actually need it.

[ZackWelder]

It's duplicate gear in each room for efficiency. There is no "spreading thin", only "spreading out". In an actual, chaotic situation, every second counts. Ever watched a panicked, sudden school fight? They end in seconds, almost always with one very clear winner.

[hotlead]

There is one very clear winner.

Yeah, the zombie, :zom1:.......:scare:............:pray:

[CAVU45]

The whole premise of your post begs the question you ask. Is it realisitic to have that much equipment in each room of your house? Also, is it practical? The money spent on triplicates or more of each item could be spent on other things making you more survival ready.

[unnamedbaby77]

all my gear is staged on a shelf by the door .....I have a weapon on at all times(being a weapon maker) in my house so I dont worry to much about getting caught unarmed

and please no nonsense about paranoia it not about that is not what its about( I live FAR from thew city)

[Redneck]

Its pointless to have a shelf of junk in every room.
Just lock the door......lmfao

[Bob]

DarthJoe
I quit in 01 after over 30 years, I was up to 3 packs a day.
If they tell me I have cancer or the Zombies come don't get between me and pack of smokes.

Shoe
Something to keep in mind.
Drinking Alcohol keeps practically indefinitely.
Gasoline keeps only a few months or does it?
http://www.alpharubicon.com/altenergy/gaslifepal.htmhttp://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2668/why-does-gasoline-go-stale-so-quickly

[unnamedbaby77]

I am sitting on ten or twelve years of cancer sticks and am finally starting to feel it...Ii took a run thee other day and preety much died after a mile...not so good....

I have been smoking roll-your-owns for some time now...which hurt me less it seems...

[CAVU45]

Christ on a crutch, that's sad!! I quit thirteen years ago and took up running as one way to get back into fighting trim before putting on the green again. At my age, which is quite a bit older than you, I was able to do 8 minute miles...all five of them. I was planning on going to jump school before I was deployed and had to pass the 18 year old PT test. The pushups and situps were not a problem. I had to get my two mile time down to fourteen minutes though. So I hit the road hard. After three weeks I had shaved my time down to twelve minutes on the two miler....but I stress fractured both my legs and ended up in casts. I got out of them and rehabbed just in time for predeployment training for Iraq.

[mattifikation]

I've often wondered how much of the harm cigarettes do is because of the tobacco, and how much is because of all the other crap the tobacco companies put in them.

[unnamedbaby77]

I dunno but they cut my stamina lung-power down to about 40% of what it was before....

[CAVU45]

Who can say for sure? The cig companies aren't talking. But it's possible to "repair" the damage done.

[Hunk]

ill never smoke for that reason, it ****s up your lungs meaning less stamina and the creeping possibility of cancer or other damage

all i need is a messenger bag with a .38 snub nose, K-bar, water filter, length of mil spec rope, and a heavy cotton blanket, and a water filter. id keep it in my closet with a box or 2 of .38 specials.

[Hunk]

I've often wondered how much of the harm cigarettes do is because of the tobacco, and how much is because of all the other crap the tobacco companies put in them.

theres shit like nickel, arsenic, and other crap

[Bob]

In my case it was from smoking and from phosgene gas.
My god the burning it would cause in your throat and lungs and the headaches...

[Hunk]

damn...cigarettes ****ing suck

[CAVU45]

In my case it was from smoking and from phosgene gas.
My god the burning it would cause in your throat and lungs and the headaches...

Though smoking for more years than I care to remember didn't help, it was...other causes...that really trashed my lungs.

[unnamedbaby77]

I have a friend who works on blackhawks for the army...his lungs are getting trashed from the JP8? fumes in the fuel cell....SPOOKY!!!!