What is the best of these Weapons? (Opinion)

[CAVU45]

We do have those cool truck things, the ones to carry all our crap, and us!

But if you're puttin boots to dirt, then it is a lot of weight.

I'd have to agree, a Lever or Bolt action rifle would force you to conserve ammo, and thus force you to take more careful shots. That's why I'd pick something without a full auto option unless I absolutely had to.

H&K416 is a pretty gun. I've never shot one yet, but if it shoots like the M4, then we might have a keeper.

I assume having to use the good ol' LPC's. Stalled traffic and accidents may preclude the use of a vehicle.

If you have an M4gery you may be able to get a gas piston system for it. Bushmaster makes one for my M4. I believe most of the major manufacturers have them now. Hell of a lot cheaper than a 416.

[CAVU45]

Long range srtagglers. But i do agree about the extensive weight capacity


A straggler so far out that it necessitates the use of a sniper rifle to kill it, is too far out to pose a threat IMHO.

[ARKHANGEL]

ok i agree on the 100+ lbs weight if i was on foot so i would get rid of the sniper system but keep the shot gun and HK along with the pistol.
using the current MOLLE system Pack i could carry based on experience
300 rnds per weapon MREs cleaning kit and a few odds and ends comfortably
Im in hawaii so weather isnt too bad or a big issue the H&K i would have
1. grippod
2. surefire light
3. RCO (Rifle Combat optic) or EOTECH halosight
4. sure fire silencer

V/R
SSgt Cole / USMC:evil:

[CAVU45]

ok i agree on the 100+ lbs weight if i was on foot so i would get rid of the sniper system but keep the shot gun and HK along with the pistol.
using the current MOLLE system Pack i could carry based on experience
300 rnds per weapon MREs cleaning kit and a few odds and ends comfortably
Im in hawaii so weather isnt too bad or a big issue the H&K i would have
1. grippod
2. surefire light
3. RCO (Rifle Combat optic) or EOTECH halosight
4. sure fire silencer

V/R
SSgt Cole / USMC:evil:


That's definately doable though personally I'd drop the shotgun and carry extra ammo for my primary weapon. With the current MOLLE system I can carry 12 magazines for my primary in two SAW pouches. That's 360 rounds, plus extra loose ammo in a three day pack along with other essentials. I would also carry at least seven magazines for my sidearm with extra loose in the pack or in a drop leg rig pouch on the weak side.

[kiltedninja]

The shotgun doesn't really have much use where you could use the HK for the same purpose. I would drop the Shotgun, go with an HK and a Springfield XD for a sidearm.

[mattifikation]

I'll second that motion. I can't even afford an M4gery though, so I'm stuck with an AK-fakeyseven. Oh well.

[CAVU45]

I'll second that motion. I can't even afford an M4gery though, so I'm stuck with an AK-fakeyseven. Oh well.


Nothing at all wrong with the AK. It's not as accurate as the AR's but rugged and reliable.

[kiltedninja]

I don't have an M4gery either, I've shot one but I dont actually have one. Go with what you've got, even if it's not the best out there.

[CAVU45]

I don't have an M4gery either, I've shot one but I dont actually have one. Go with what you've got, even if it's not the best out there.


I own a Bushmaster M4A3 that will soon be converted to gas piston operation. That would obviously be my primary. My back-up would be my 1911A1 and Taurus PT945. The Bushmaster is a sweet firing carbine.

[kiltedninja]

The only rifle I have is my Enfield Mark 4, a 7.62 bolt action.

[mattifikation]

I want an AR with the LWRC upper. Those look pretty badasterisk.

If only money.

[CAVU45]

The only rifle I have is my Enfield Mark 4, a 7.62 bolt action.

7.62 Enfield? When was it rebarreld? I know the SMLE is .303 and even had some made in 30.06.

[kiltedninja]

The LE was redesigned sometime in the 50's I believed to take the NATO 7.62 round. That's the Mark 4, the one I have.

[CAVU45]

The LE was redesigned sometime in the 50's I believed to take the NATO 7.62 round. That's the Mark 4, the one I have.


My SMLE was made in the 50's also. It's still 303. Do you know when the change was made?

[kiltedninja]

I apologize, the conversion to the 7.62 was done in the sixties, The Mk. 4 are still available in .303, but they're also made in 7.62, also called a .308.

I should know more about my own rifle.

[CAVU45]

I apologize, the conversion to the 7.62 was done in the sixties, The Mk. 4 are still available in .303, but they're also made in 7.62, also called a .308.

I should know more about my own rifle.


No worries. Still a nice conversion. Was it done for general use or for specialized use such as for snipers?

[Birdman44]

Honestly i believe its personal preference. For me, i would go with the ak47. Don't get me wrong, i like the m16 a lot more than the old ak, but i will probably not be engaging zeds at more than 100 yards especially if theyre slow. So accuracy will not be a problem with the ak-47 for me. And even though the bullets are larger im quite the shot at atleast 50 yards (havent been able to get to a range yet so im stuck with my backyard) not to mention the increased penetration will hopefully be able to go through a skull and into another (correct me if im wrong). not to mention the ak-47 wont have to be maintained as much as an m16, even if its only one less feild strip a year its good enough for me.

[kiltedninja]

It was for NATO. The conversion I mean.

I'm surprised so many people are as partial to the AK as they are.
I'd really like to go with an AK 74, but something tells me the 5.56 or 5.45 rounds aren't in high availibility.

[Bob]

Well Wal-Mart most sporting goods stores sell 5.56

[CAVU45]

5.56 (or .223) is readily available here in the states, regardless of what you hear about shortages due to the wars demands, and cheaper than 7.62x39.

With a gas piston conversion, the AR platforms don't have to be cleaned as often (none of that filthy gas entering the receiver in massive quantities), they are as reliable as and much more accurate than the AK. Given that, I'll stick to my Bushmaster M4.

[mattifikation]

I have a hunch it may be big cities that are having problems with the 5.56 ammo. I live in rural nowheresville, PA, and every gun store I've been in has always had quite a bit of the stuff.

It seems more expensive than it used to be though. Maybe that's what they mean when they say "shortage?" The simple fact is, it's a hugely common round that pretty much everyone manufactures, and you've got the entire economy and industry of NATO behind it. It's available.

[CAVU45]

It may even be dependent on the city. I just attended a gun show in Indianapolis and all the vendors were well stocked with .223 and had no trouble ordering as much as they wanted of that or any other caliber.

[Bob]

It's available here but some places are totally out.

Hell I can't even find a Wal-Mart that has the brand and model of 22lr that I shoot for plinking.

[CAVU45]

Damn! That's bad. No such problems like that around here for any type of ammunition.

[Bob]

Yea I can't understand it.
I am going to be out of town a day this week and two days the week after.
I am going to try some wally marts there and see if I can score a few thousand 22s. I have had to go into my stash for 22 several times recently.

[CAVU45]

Sounds like it could be the perfect opportunity to stock up.

[joerrrrrr]

I would go with the AK. its got a quick reload, good accuracy, and good handling. also the stock is reinforced with steel making a good melee weapon to.

[GeorgeARomeroknowsall]

Ak-47 vs M16? It comes down to a choice between close and far. The Ak is much more powerful then the 16, has the metal butt, and is legendary in its durability. However its weak points is its just god awful unaccurate, which makes you work harder to aim, far heavier which makes you prone to exhaustion. The m16 is much more accurate, far lighter, easier to aim, and very durable. As to which one i would prefer varies with the situation, if i was by myself in the city, ak47, with group in city, m16, in the wilderness group or no group , m16. I would want an m16.

[Samsonite]

the calculator. but only if it a nice scientific one with games on it. that way, you will have fun while the zombies kill you! also, make sure it is not solar powered because those darn zombies could block your sunlight!!

[Scud]

i would use the calculator to divide by zero and destroy the universe, thus destroying the zombies.

[kiltedninja]

I would go with the AK. its got a quick reload, good accuracy, and good handling. also the stock is reinforced with steel making a good melee weapon to.

HA! The Ak is accurate to around... fifty yards, in my experiences, but other than that, I'd go with an AK, and one with one of those underfolding stocks, those things are cool. your best bet of an even remotely accurate shot would be to never put the selector switch on AUTO.

[mattifikation]

Fifty yards? What crap-ass AK-47 were you shooting? That thing should be good out to AT LEAST 52 yards.

I'm kidding, sort of. I do think 50 yards is exaggerating the inaccuracy of the weapon, unless you really did have a bad gun. There's simply no way it would have lasted half a century as the most popular assault rifle on earth with accuracy THAT poor.

That being said, the m16 still beats it hands down.

[CAVU45]

I don't think accuracy had anything to do with the AK's popularity. It's simple, so any backwoods farmboy can easily learn to operate it. It's rugged, so said farmboy can't easily break it. And last but not least, the old USSR would quite literally give thousands of them to any two bit tyrant and dictator who said "Comrade" and espoused hatred of the west.

[Samsonite]

i would use the calculator to divide by zero and destroy the universe, thus destroying the zombies.

nice!!!!!!

[EvilWeasel35]

AK47!AK47!AK47!AK47!:clap::guns::guns::zom1:

They're not at all my favourite weapon lol ;-) You can't beat something that is made out of zero parts! There is nothing to go wrong!:)

Although hitting them over the head with a calculator comes second best.

[kiltedninja]

AK47!AK47!AK47!AK47!:clap::guns::guns::zom1:

They're not at all my favourite weapon lol ;-) You can't beat something that is made out of zero parts! There is nothing to go wrong!:)

Although hitting them over the head with a calculator comes second best.

It's about ten parts total, but yeah, it's not complicated, and with proper application, can make a good bludgeon as well as rifle.

[Redfields]

I would go for the M-16
Purely from preference but, if i get either assault rifle in an outbreak with alot of ammo, I will be very thankful :lol:

[JimiVengeance]

no matter what arguments i receive, and i always do, im gonna stick with my faithful shotty:drinking:

[Birdman44]

no matter what arguments i receive, and i always do, im gonna stick with my faithful shotty:drinking:

Hey, if thats what you have the most experience with then go for it. No zombie is match for anyone well trained/experienced with a firearm.

[Darkness]

"That's fine, but if it's not in the poll, it's a topic for the standard gun thread." ;-)

[dudeskis]

Many people are forgetting that an AR-15 is going to get dirty about 2 weeks into Zday and stop working. The AK-47 on the other hand will keep going long after you've been eaten.

"But what if I clean it?" - I don't know how to properly clean and lube an AR-15. Do you? I can wipe one down and keep it clean after going to the range but the kind of dirt and grime that can come up when you're on the run from zombies might cause it to fail on you.

[44hogleg]

I guess it would depend on the AR-15. If it is identical to what the military uses, so its chambered in .223 (5.56x45mm) I would take the AK47 just for the stopping power of the 7.62x39. But, since AK's only redeming quality (other than the cheap ammo) is there durrability, I would love to get my hands on an AR-15 chambered in .308 (7.62x51mm).

[Trumble0]

Anyone here have any extended use of the AR- Platform? Cause from what I've read, "read" being the keyword here: Alot of the bad press the M-16 and AR-15, Get is due to the M16A1 model which was an utter failure. They removed the Full-auto option and opted for a burst setting instead because of problems with overheating and jamming on full auto, as well as some sources say to save money on ammo. I think the AR has improved by leaps and bounds recently, while the Colt models remain :poo:ty *while their price steadily increases* I've heard good things about DPMS Panther AR-15's, as well as I hate to say it Bushmaster models :roll:. If that was the case I'd opt for an AR-15. but If theyre still junk and Guns and Ammo doesnt know their stuff I'd go with the AK. Really though, how hard would it be to print off cleaning instructions for an AR-15 and throw a small cleaning kit with some Q-tips in your survival bag, it's just smart survival. Like any gun is going to be prone to failure if youre dragging it through the mud and not cleaning it. I know Ive seen the AK-47 and Glock torture tests where they bury them in mud and shoot it out of them, but you gotta figure sooner or later, something will go wrong.

[mattifikation]

If you're that worried about AR15/M16/M4 issues with jamming, you could opt for one with a gas piston upper. I've long wished to be wealthy enough to plop down the money for one of the LWRC rifles.

Also, the HK MR556 is due out later this year. It's the civilian version of the HK 416, with their gas piston upper.

Anyways... 2 weeks into a zombie invasion, your AR15 isn't going to jam as long as you clean it. And if, like you suggested, you don't know how to clean it - then why would you own one to begin with?

[dudeskis]

Yeah the issue with the AR-15 isn't overheating it's the gas system. When it's fired much of the dirty gas is blown back into the cylinder.

If you get one with a piston system that solves the problem. The DOD is looking for a replacement for the M4 at the moment and the H&K solution, FN, Bushmaster, etc are all piston systems (like the AK).

[CAVU45]

The "dirt" issue with the AR platform is way overblown. To hear many of the so called "experts" the gun has to be spotless to fire. That is far from being the truth. I've shot varying models of the AR platform for roughly 30 years and outside of the training environment never had a problem with a malfunction on one. My first issue rifle after basic training was an original AR15 with a 203 slung beneath it. Never a jam. Carried the M16A2 in Iraq. Never a malfunction and I wasn't the most fastidious when it came to cleanliness. Off the FOB (sometimes for as long as two weeks at a time) the most I'd do is wash the bolt carrier group with Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber and run a few patches down the barrel. As a point of fact the Bushmaster AR's are not all gas piston. My personal M4, a Bushmaster, is the old impingement system. Bushmaster does make and sell a piston conversion kit.

The AR rifles went from full auto capable to three round burst back to full auto. The reason for the burst setting was not due to problems with dirt and overheating but the DoD's thought that the average soldier was wasting too much ammo on full auto.

[dudeskis]

I wasn't trying to say that the AR was going to 100% fail on you. But in comparison to the AK in a ZPAW the AK is much better suited. Granted you lose a lot of accuracy when choosing the AK but you gain penetrative power and reliability. I read a book from a GI in Vietnam and he talked about how if you shot the AR in the jungle or woods leaves and tiny branches would throw your 5.56 rounds off target and into oblivion. The 7.62 on the other hand would punch through the dense forest mostly on target. Just something to think about.

And to the above poster. Thank you so very much for your service. You and your fellow soldiers truly are the best of us.

[CAVU45]

I wasn't trying to say that the AR was going to 100% fail on you. But in comparison to the AK in a ZPAW the AK is much better suited. Granted you lose a lot of accuracy when choosing the AK but you gain penetrative power and reliability. I read a book from a GI in Vietnam and he talked about how if you shot the AR in the jungle or woods leaves and tiny branches would throw your 5.56 rounds off target and into oblivion. The 7.62 on the other hand would punch through the dense forest mostly on target. Just something to think about.

The failures of the AR platform in Vietnam were due to two basic factors, the Army changing the powder type to one the weapon wasn't built to fire and the troops weren't issued cleaning kits, having been told by some DoD brainiac that it didn't need cleaning. Even the vaunted AK needs to be cleaned. Get some mud in its receiver and see what happens. *bang, bang, click* The old rounds were lighter than the ones currently used so could have had a problem in a jungle. We shot the newer ammo through concrete block walls, so penetration isn't a problem. I've fired the AR platforms in all kinds of weather and in varying conditions, from brutal cold and snow to extreme heat with dust and sand flying around and never had a malfunction. All it requires is the most basic of maintenance, just like any other firearm and the AR will serve you well. I have and will trust my life to it.

[CAVU45]

A thought occured to me after I posted the last message and I thought it was important to mention. Many problems with AR malfunctions can be attributed to an outside influence such as a bad magazine or ammunition and not a problem with the rifle itself.

[fomyowen]

Me myself i would go for a handgun with a hella of a lot of ammo. its how i play most my zombie games

[Trumble0]

A thought occured to me after I posted the last message and I thought it was important to mention. Many problems with AR malfunctions can be attributed to an outside influence such as a bad magazine or ammunition and not a problem with the rifle itself.

I know my roommate saw people have problems with their ARs when he was in the Navy, when they would smack Mags on their helmets. I guess the new mags just arent built as solid as the old BAR and M1 Carbine Mags.

[CAVU45]

I know my roommate saw people have problems with their ARs when he was in the Navy, when they would smack Mags on their helmets. I guess the new mags just arent built as solid as the old BAR and M1 Carbine Mags.

Depends on who makes the mags, some are really good, some are pieces of crap. Smacking the mag against the helmet actually serves to seat the bullets to the back of the mag to prevent the bullet tip from catching on the front of the mag and causing a malfunction. I was so used to doing this automatically that I did it without realizing that I didn't have my helmet on one day. Raised a nice size knot on the top of my head.

[ZachM16]

Im not sure where youll find ammo for the first 3 but a calculator is a great weapon (if a knife is duct taped to it)

[50 cal]

A lot of the "dirty M16" rumors are just that. I have 3 AR's that I clean every now and again. One of them I haven't cleaned in well over 1500 rounds. Yeah the bolt and carrier get pretty grungy but keep working.

I've had quite a few AK's. Yes they keep working no matter what. But they aren't accurate at all. The bolt does not lock into the breech very tightly at all.
I have sold each AK that I've ever owned.

An AR will keep going no matter what you've read on the 'net. Most of what you hear on the 'net is just passed along with no basis on fact. Someones brothers fathers dog heard it once and and now it must be true. Try a properly built AR and you will see that they are one of the most accurate reliable rifles going. Except maybe for the SIG family of rifles.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

the ak-47 is so much stronger and more durable than the m-16 but m-16 is more accurate yet if your rouhg on it which will be no doubt inevitable since your running around shootin zeds, u want a longer lasting gun, you will just have to practice with you aim. but i personally would like an M14 or M21 not much differnce M21 is a semi auto sniper, M14 is an assualt rifle version of the M14 semiauto no scope but way more power if u miss the head your guarnteed to knock the lil bugger down or blow off a limb. the saying for a
M14 is first shot is a body shot 2nd shot is a head shot 3rd shot is over the head and 4th shot is anti air craft fire, so pretty it's got really bad recoil so practice practice, it's a fun gun to shoot though. i've seen it puncture a concrete wall pretty sweet stuff.

[CAVU45]

the ak-47 is so much stronger and more durable than the m-16 but m-16 is more accurate yet if your rouhg on it which will be no doubt inevitable since your running around shootin zeds, u want a longer lasting gun, you will just have to practice with you aim. but i personally would like an M14 or M21 not much differnce M21 is a semi auto sniper, M14 is an assualt rifle version of the M14 semiauto no scope but way more power if u miss the head your guarnteed to knock the lil bugger down or blow off a limb. the saying for a
M14 is first shot is a body shot 2nd shot is a head shot 3rd shot is over the head and 4th shot is anti air craft fire, so pretty it's got really bad recoil so practice practice, it's a fun gun to shoot though. i've seen it puncture a concrete wall pretty sweet stuff.

You've read way too much and shot way too little. The AR rifles will take any rough handling they are given. They don'thave to keot spotless either. I've shot them for thiry years with nary a problem and that includes two combat tours. The M14 and M21 fire the same cartridge, the 7.62x51 NATO. The only difference is the M14 is full auto selectable.

[mattifikation]

the ak-47 is so much stronger and more durable than the m-16 but m-16 is more accurate yet if your rouhg on it which will be no doubt inevitable since your running around shootin zeds, u want a longer lasting gun, you will just have to practice with you aim. but i personally would like an M14 or M21 not much differnce M21 is a semi auto sniper, M14 is an assualt rifle version of the M14 semiauto no scope but way more power if u miss the head your guarnteed to knock the lil bugger down or blow off a limb. the saying for a
M14 is first shot is a body shot 2nd shot is a head shot 3rd shot is over the head and 4th shot is anti air craft fire, so pretty it's got really bad recoil so practice practice, it's a fun gun to shoot though. i've seen it puncture a concrete wall pretty sweet stuff.

Your spelling and grammar are predictably horrible. American again, I assume? Most of our friends across the pond are literate by the time they learn to use a computer. Won't somebody stop buying tanks and start hiring teachers that can do there job?

Your assertions are ridiculous. If the M16 platform was one tenth as unreliable as book readers claim it is, there is simply no way in hell it would have survived in service since Vietnam. Problems that major would get fixed, kind of like the M16's did in... oh yeah, Vietnam!

I'm sure the M14's recoil is heavy, but if your fourth shot is really that far out of your control then somebody was an idiot for giving you a gun. And any military gun loaded with military ammo will shoot through a concrete wall, even the M16. Concrete isn't actually all that tough, I used to break it with my hands in Tae Kwon Do.

[homelitexl]

matt did i ever explain why that happens it aint the education system its because from the age of 14 all americans rot thee braincells on porn and liqour its a well known fact especially where i live.

[Darkness]

"Okay, rant time over. Get back on topic now." :naughty:

[detpat]

M21's were originally built by USAAMTU armorers from M14's selected for superior accuracy and tolerances they were mostly fitted with leatherwood ART or ARTII scopes. very good setup, but mostly non repairable within the supply train. scope mounts would shoot loose too.

AR-10's are now in the supply chain and are much more accurate and easily armorer maintainable. the M14 was always a select fire weapon but they were modified into SA rifles due to controllability issues. they just took the selectors out.

[J Dub]

i can only speak of which i know.

the ak47 is a prohib up here, i'll never hold a ak47 let alone shoot one. being a fan of the ar platform and it being available to me up here i'd have to go with that.

fwiw, weaponology did a show on the top ten combat rifles ever made. the ak47 won top spot. more based on actual combat use and the fact that the ak rarely fails, functions even when filthy and fouled. not to mention the knock down power of the 7.62x39.

in a perfect world i'd have access to a ak47 :drool:

[kiltedninja]

The only AKs that I've shot are only fairly accurate. The ARs are very accurate, the M14(M1A in my case) is incredibly accurate, in that order.

I'd go for the M16 simply because it has accuracy, I could clean it after I make camp if need be. I've talked to a Ranger who loves the M16 because it's an accurate, reliable gun.

This is only if I had to choose between these options.
I'd take up my SMLE, giving my friend my M1A on a good day.

[Bob]

In a world where ammunition is unavailable guns will have little value.
If you have no bullets a slingshot would be a better weapon.
What is the most available center fire round?

At this time it is twelve gauge #8 and #7.5 for us.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

first of all cavu i'm in the military and i've shot all the guns and i def know my stuff man, i've shot guns since i was 5, i've shot just about every gun in our aresnal. so don't go around making assumptions when you don't know the truth and no AR's and M-16's aren't as reliable as you think i've seen them break, jam all that good stuff all the time.Yes m-16's and AR's can be excellent guns if cleaned and handled to the utmost extreme, i'm not saying they aren't agood gun at all, i love my M-16 but sometimes i wish i had maybe a M-4 carbine now that's my type of weapon. Yet an AK can be thrown in the sand, mud, water all that good stuff and no problems. but some of your pooints i totally agree with but some i don't but i appreciate your points of view bcuz you are or where in the military like me. thanks for correcting me on the M-14 i swore it was a tad bit stronger. Now Matt so waht if my grammar is horrible it's called slang making less to type so relax, and in vietnam their gun's were always jamming so yea since you weren't there don't say something till you know it. since i work with some viet vets and we discuss everything from back then and i've heard some bad times whe their guns jam or just break in the middle of a firefight. but anyway back to topic, i'd prolly pick up ak due to reliability but thats the main reason.

[homelitexl]

i want that rifle bert had in tremors 2 the anti tank one.

[kiltedninja]

A vietnam Vet taught me to throw knives.
I'd take accuracy over durability, or better yet, simplicity over rate of fire.

[J Dub]

The AR rifles will take any rough handling they are given.

The only difference is the M14 is full auto selectable.



those two statements alone seem strange from a knowledgeable guy :roll:

m16/ar15 do not like mud dirt and periods of no or low maintenance FACT!
ak47's do not give a fiddle stick if its full of crud, it will still function FACT!

ever wonder how many vets slung their m16 and carried the ak from the vc they'd killed? lots.

that is all :)

[CAVU45]

first of all cavu i'm in the military and i've shot all the guns and i def know my stuff man

I call 'em as I see 'em. Being in the military doesn't make anyone an expert. It just means you were, or are in the military. Most of my family is or was Air Force so I know how often those weapons are taken from the armory and in what condition they're in for the most part. This is first hand knowledge now, not hearsay from someone who knows a friend who told him a buddy said another saw....you get the point.

so don't go around making assumptions when you don't know the truth and no AR's and M-16's aren't as reliable as you think i've seen them break, jam all that good stuff all the time.Yes m-16's and AR's can be excellent guns if cleaned and handled to the utmost extreme, i'm not saying they aren't agood gun at all, i love my M-16 but sometimes i wish i had maybe a M-4 carbine now that's my type of weapon.

I'm making no assumptions at all. I know the AR series rifles intimately even building them in my spare time, the latest being a match rifle I plan on using in competition. I've shot them for thirty years, to include two actual combat tours. The first one I shot was an orignal AR15. Yes, the same AR15 that was used in Vietnam, the weapon that was supposed to jam so much. Initially there were problems with the gun. But they weren't necessarily the fault of the gun. It was an Army bureucracy and Colt that said it didn't need cleaning and refused to issue cleaning kits. The powder type was also changed which allowed more powder fouling and it was issued without a chromed bore or receiver. All this led to the malfunctions seen early in Vietnam. The weapon was redesigned with the addition of chromed bore and receiever and the problems went away, so much so that by 1968 most soldiers in Vietnam wouldn't part with their M16's and those who would wanted the shorter CAR15. It's simply ignorance that leads to the bad reputation that the AR rifles have today. My field cleaining kit in Iraq consisted of a can of Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber, a rag, and a bore brush. That was it. Part of the problem is that too many in the military almost literally pour lube on the weapon to the point oil is quite literally dripping from the receiver and we all know oil is a crud magnet. I've personally had five malfunctions in thirty years of shooting AR's. Of those five only one was due to the rifle itself, a bent gas ring. As to the M16/M4, they're both functionally the same.

and in vietnam their gun's were always jamming so yea since you weren't there don't say something till you know it. since i work with some viet vets and we discuss everything from back then and i've heard some bad times whe their guns jam or just break in the middle of a firefight. but anyway back to topic, i'd prolly pick up ak due to reliability but thats the main reason.

You weren't in Vietnam either and I've already addressed the reliability issue. The vaunted AK can malfunction also. I guarantee you I can jam one just as easily as any M16. I've seen any number of them with parts cobbles together from other guns where the AK has broke. They can and do suffer from powder fouling at the piston, making the gun stop unless it's cleaned properly and they also suffer from stuck cases and failure of the gas piston return spring and recoil spring and guide rod. There's also the point that more and more nations are adopting the M16 over the AK with Syria being the latest. I have no problem burying my AR's in mud or sand or even soaking them in water, because I know they'll work.

Now Matt so waht if my grammar is horrible it's called slang making less to type so relax

I think Matts' point is that your grammar makes it extrememly difficult to understand the point you're trying to make and it also makes you appear ignorant, which I'm sure isn't the case. Colloquial english has its place back home but, if you want to make sure you get your point across, shouldn't be used in a forum visited by people from around the nation and even the world. It not only makes it hard to understand but makes the writer come across as lazy and uneducated and maybe even a bit arrogant.

[J Dub]

A vietnam Vet taught me to throw knives.
I'd take accuracy over durability, or better yet, simplicity over rate of fire.

ha, you're a sniper :lol:

the problem with accuracy is its meaning. practical accuracy is more or less pointing and firing and knowing more or less the round will hit its target and shooter ease of use etc. functional accuracy is where you take the human element out of it and tune a weapon to be accurate. functional accuracy due to its nature is more unforgiving to variances in temperature, ammunition, dirt due to tighter clearances etc etc.

there are pro's and con's to both. you just have to know what you want to do, and know your weapons limitations and/or abilities.

[CAVU45]

those two statements alone seem strange from a knowledgeable guy :roll:

m16/ar15 do not like mud dirt and periods of no or low maintenance FACT!
ak47's do not give a fiddle stick if its full of crud, it will still function FACT!


With two combat tours and thirty years of shooting AR rifles I'm very much aware of the rough handling they can take. I've had my rifles in mud and crud, sand and dust and they still operated flawlessly with low maintenance. In fact I never saw an M4/M16 malfunction the entire time I was in the sandbox. FACT!!!

The AK is just as susceptible to mud, sand, dust, and powder fouling as any other weapons system. The powder fouling problem was moved from the receiver to the gas piston block. FACT!!!

ever wonder how many vets slung their m16 and carried the ak from the vc they'd killed? lots.

Bet you can't back up that statement with FACT!!! Initially there were problems with the M16. But were the problems due to the rifle or from external sources? Were the problems fixed? Makes one wonder...Perhaps a little research is in order? :roll:

I find it entertaining that you take two seperate statements out of context to attempt to make a point. Or perhaps reading comprehension is a problem? Maybe I should spell it out for you.Functionally there is no difference between the M14 and the M21 except the M14 is not only able to fire in semi-auto mode but selectable for full-auto fire also. :roll:

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

CAVU i don't feel like typing a whole lot but i agree with everything being discussed here. yes i'm in the Air Force on my first 6 year contract. I'm just going to say a few simple things then be done with it. I agree they fixed alot of the M-16's problems and i agree i have an AR-15 i love it. I own an AK-47 to i guess i like it just a tad bit more. No i wasn't in Viet i said i work with a few getnleman that were but yes i know they weren't issued the proper cleaning supplies for thier guns. But i feel that you have won this debate for one i don't feel like writing a page to banter back with you, and i see that you have the stronger ground to stand on though i prolly know just a slight less then you, but I will say that I'm a gun fantatic as well as my Dad and amongst the 2 of us we prolly own 60 or so guns so i know my knowledge, and like I said earlier I've been shooting guns since i was a little kid.
Bravo Bravo though very nice agruement I loved it I'd drink to that if i could.
:drinking:

[CAVU45]

I wasn't trying to win a debate. Simply telling truth as I know it. Debate to me is about learning, not winning. Winning a debate sounds very partisan to me...but i'll skip the whole political thing, this isn't the forum for that. I never said you couldn't shoot, I was just trying to correct some mistakes I saw in your posts. The AR rifles aren't perfect, far from it. I simply think that pound for pound it's better than the alternative and has the potential to be the best. Rather than buy a new rifle the military should simply look at converting the current weapons to gas piston operation.

[J Dub]

[QUOTE=CAVU45;402444]


I find it entertaining that you take two seperate statements out of context to attempt to make a point. Or perhaps reading comprehension is a problem? Maybe I should spell it out for you.Functionally there is no difference between the M14 and the M21 except the M14 is not only able to fire in semi-auto mode but selectable for full-auto fire also. :roll:[

/QUOTE]

my point is your can have your opinion, i don't have to agree with it.

#1 battle proven rifle is the ak.
#2 not all m14's are select fire, civilian use m14's are semi auto only. (being from a military background you know this though)

i comprehend quite well, if you feel a disagreement is grounds for questioning my comprehension too bad.

i salute all who serve and have served, but talk is cheap and on the internet i don't buy too much. add to the fact that your birthdate is listed as 1960 and i say you are not in touch with reality. vietnam must of been a bitch when you're like 5 or 6 years old:loon:

eta. did you get that, or should i spell it out for you?

[CAVU45]

my point is your can have your opinion, i don't have to agree with it.


No one said you did. You weren't making a point though. You were simply taking comments out of context. That just makes you an ass.

not all m14's are select fire, civilian use m14's are semi auto only. (being from a military background you know this though)

The civilian version of the M14 is the M1A. But you knew this. :roll:

i salute all who serve and have served, but talk is cheap and on the internet i don't buy too much. add to the fact that your birthdate is listed as 1960 and i say you are not in touch with reality. vietnam must of been a bitch when you're like 5 or 6 years old

eta. did you get that, or should i spell it out for you?

Did I ever say I was in Vietnam? I defy you to find a single post where I claimed such. :loon: But I do know veterans of that war quite well and I do know how to read, again quite well. You should try it some time. Disagreement is one thing. Being an ass about it is entirely different. Now I not only question your comprehension, but your credibility and honesty as well. Did you get that?

[Darkness]

"Children, CHILDREN, CHILDREN!!"

"Stop it! I don't care who started it, agree to disagree, or take it to PM please." :naughty:

[Bob]

Neener Neener Neener
Y'all got fussed at and Bob and VJ weren't involved...

[J Dub]

Darkness, sorry mybad.

and that is the extent of my apology.

[CAVU45]

Neener Neener Neener
Y'all got fussed at and Bob and VJ weren't involved...

:lol: Will miracles never cease!!

[homelitexl]

yeah homelite wasnt even inolved either.

[mattifikation]

So in a thread about AK47's vs. M16's, we aren't allowed to debate which is better between an AK47 and an M16?

[kiltedninja]

ha, you're a sniper :lol:

the problem with accuracy is its meaning. practical accuracy is more or less pointing and firing and knowing more or less the round will hit its target and shooter ease of use etc. functional accuracy is where you take the human element out of it and tune a weapon to be accurate. functional accuracy due to its nature is more unforgiving to variances in temperature, ammunition, dirt due to tighter clearances etc etc.

there are pro's and con's to both. you just have to know what you want to do, and know your weapons limitations and/or abilities.

Never shot a rifle with a scope, I'm only accurate to about 150 yds, after that, My shots aren't going to hit the target reliably.

I like CQC, close quarters shooting, fighting, pistols and (you guessed it) AKs.
When it comes to shooting accurately though, I'd take the M16/M4, since it's known for being accurate.

I've never put enough rounds through any AR's to jam it, but I know that it can happen. I also know that the US and many other countries like the gun, so that says something to me.

But you have to remember that comparing the AR to the AK is like seeing if you could beat your dad in a fistfight, since the AK and Stg44 are the original assault rifles.

I've heard it said that the AK is more of an assault rifle, accurate and reliable, but only to a certain point, while the AR is more of a rifleman's rifle, accurate at long ranges as well as close ranges, but still reliable to a certain point.

Machines get stuff in them, which jams them, it's like my dad always says :poo: happens.

[J Dub]

well if you are accurate to 150 with irons you are doing pretty good in my books. my socomII is a cqb rifle more or less due to the short barrel and even though its in 7.62nato/308 it is not best suited for ranges past 300yds. that being said (my wife is a better shot than i am) wifey can ring a 12x12gong at 300yds all day long with this thing and the socom does not have a decent set of sights for precise shooting. irons are my favorite to shoot, but i would like to try a red dot one day.

the debate about the ak vs m16/ar15 is over. the numbers don't lie, the ak is the best battle proven rifle ever. this is not my opinion, but rather the numbers that exist.

i'd personally would take a ar for its better shooting traits, mainly being more accurate and the fact that the 5.56 performs better than the 7.62x39 when flesh becomes a bullet stop.

but if i was lazy i'd take the ak, i'd never/rarely have to clean it :)

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

CAVU yea i understand that, yea lets not hit the poltic parts that would be dumb, hey i learn somethin new everyday so i'm all good. Now i'm not totally sure but I think we are modifiying some of the older weapons instead of buying new ones every few years. sandbox satndard issue right now is a
M-16A13 and possibly a 9mm, but there are a few M-4 Carbines and AR-15's. I went to the shooting range yesterday picked up my M-16 and a friends AK and shot a few rounds I feel taht maybe i underestimated M-16 a little bit though it did jam on one bullet i hit the target dead on 95% of the time while with the AK only 75% of the time, yet coming to the question of reliability is just the matter of you taking care of it properly and propmtly. So I'm going to change my vote to the M-16.

[kiltedninja]

well if you are accurate to 150 with irons you are doing pretty good in my books. my socomII is a cqb rifle more or less due to the short barrel and even though its in 7.62nato/308 it is not best suited for ranges past 300yds. that being said (my wife is a better shot than i am) wifey can ring a 12x12gong at 300yds all day long with this thing and the socom does not have a decent set of sights for precise shooting. irons are my favorite to shoot, but i would like to try a red dot one day.

the debate about the ak vs m16/ar15 is over. the numbers don't lie, the ak is the best battle proven rifle ever. this is not my opinion, but rather the numbers that exist.

i'd personally would take a ar for its better shooting traits, mainly being more accurate and the fact that the 5.56 performs better than the 7.62x39 when flesh becomes a bullet stop.

but if i was lazy i'd take the ak, i'd never/rarely have to clean it :)

I agree that the AK is the best battle rifle ever, but most combat shooting doesn't take place at an excess of 100 yds. That's the reason everyone likes the AK, because it can hit their target in a realistic situation, and can typically handle the elements better than other weapons.

ARs are more of a rifleman's rifle because their traits of accuracy.

If you think 150 yds is amazing, when my grandpa was in the Air force, he qualified for the rifle team by putting a round through the bullseye, and then putting five more rounds through that hole at 1000 yds.

[CAVU45]

sinzs,
The debate could rage for weeks and no firm conclusion could ever be made. In the end it comes down to what you're comfortable with. I'm most comfortable with AR's where others are the AK. I've shot a few AK's and find the bulging receiver a bit disconcerting. Add that to the mechanical problems I've seen in them and I become leery.

It's my understanding that the M4's and newer M16's are kept by the Air Force Spec Ops bunch and the security forces. The shot out crap is given to the average Airman and they weren't maintained very well. BTW, my son is an A1C at Scott AFB.

[CAVU45]

If you think 150 yds is amazing, when my grandpa was in the Air force, he qualified for the rifle team by putting a round through the bullseye, and then putting five more rounds through that hole at 1000 yds.

Holy :poo:!! What was he shooting?

[homelitexl]

a bullseye genuis.

[J Dub]

If you think 150 yds is amazing, when my grandpa was in the Air force, he qualified for the rifle team by putting a round through the bullseye, and then putting five more rounds through that hole at 1000 yds.

well amazing wasn't the word i used but wholly guacamole...

i'm reading 1000 yards

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj123/jonwaite/funnies/Sneezing_Panda_Bill.gif

[Gemtech Oasis]

well amazing wasn't the word i used but wholly guacamole...

i'm reading 1000 yards

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj123/jonwaite/funnies/Sneezing_Panda_Bill.gif


Sorry, but nobody, not even Carlos Hathcock places a round through another rounds hole at 1000 meters. That's just not reality. There are to many variables beyond your control to do that.

[Birdman44]

Maybe it was a typo. Right now I'm going for the M4 seeing as it's more modular than an ak, but i haven't gotten any time at all with an M4 besides holding a soldiers rifle and looking through the red dot sight at Fort Dix, NJ. That and the simulation training for it.

[J Dub]

That's just not reality. There are to many variables beyond your control to do that.

hey, i ain't gonna rain on his parade. possible today yes, but back then i can't say.

jmo on the topic of holes. a clover leaf is still one hole as long as holes are touching (one hole just a ugly one)

[Bob]

It may be be technically in the realm of possibility but it has not been done yet.

Old guys like me tend to stretch the truth a tad when we tell stories to our grandchildren.
Keep that in mind and evaluate the group you repeat those stories to.

Some of us have spent a lifetime and thousand upon thousands of dollars practicing and will never be world class shooters.
You should save your cough cough "adjusted" family stories for non-shooters.

Do you want to see a WORLD RECORD 1000 yard target?
DOES THIS LOOK LIKE A FRACKING ONE HOLE TARGET?
BE FRACKING SURE TO LOOK AT THE RIFLE IT WAS DONE WITH.

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/tag/1000-yard/

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4313/joelgun002534695.jpg

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8734/joelgun03a2590173.jpg

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1235/joelgun022618293.jpg

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1015/joelgun012635054.jpg

[J Dub]

wholy fark!! imagine the time and money put into that set up. it barely resembles a firearm in the traditional sense, and has taken the human element out of the picture from the looks of things.

i'm no match shooter or even close, but if i where to plink at 1000 i would use .338lapuamag or .50bmg. of course i would have to win my lottery first :)

good article bob.

[CAVU45]

Here's an article about Tom Sarver's world record 1,000 yards shot. Five rounds in the X ring with a group measuring 1.403".

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Ohio+Man+Shatters+World+Records+At+1%252C000-Yard+Shooting+Range

He supposedly shot an even tighter group of 1.397 at a later date, but I can't find anything official on it.

[UseYourHeadAndYourMachtte]

it doesnt make any sense to have a calculator

the ak47 and the M16 are the best choices but i think the M16 is better because
i actually own one and i have shot it a couple of times.

[Birdman44]

i'm no match shooter or even close, but if i where to plink at 1000 i would use .338lapuamag or .50bmg.


What about the .408 Chey Tac? I was looking at it for a bit and then futureweapons did a show on it and it seams like the new sniper round. It's said to stay supersonic out to around 2,300 yards and supposedly is extremely accurate.

[50 cal]

The .408 CheyTac is very hit and miss in the accuracy department. I've seen some outstanding accuracy in some rifles ans some really crappy examples of rifles.
CheyTac had a reputation of firing rifles and picking rifles to go to the military and crappy ones to the civilians. If you got a civilian one you may as well got it rebarreled because chances are it had some really crappy barrel runout and accuracy suffered.

I fired 5 rifles that belonged to the 5th Special Forces at Ft. Campbell, Ky when I took a bunch of M107 Barretts up there. The CheyTac rifles did shoot amazingly well.
I prefered the Accuracy International .338 Lapua Magnum rifles though.

[Gemtech Oasis]

Well, I have a couple Alexander Arms .50 cal Beowulf's! They will clear anything necessary that is in front of you!

[Bob]

Gemtech
What kind of configuration are they in?

[kiltedninja]

My Grandpa used an M14. I might be mistaken when I say 1000 yards, because I happen to know that the M14's aren't effective at that range. I do know that he was pushing the upper limits of the rifle's effective range though, but he couldn't because of what he was working on.
I've seen him shoot iron sights at 300 yds with my Lee Enfield, and I can tell you that if he's intent on hitting you with a bullet, it'll hit you, and it'll hit you where he wants it to.

[Bob]

It was probably a slightly shorter range.
I would not hesitate to "stretch" the truth to one of my grandkids.
That's just how it goes.

My Maternal Grandfather didn't need to stretch the truth, he was a monster of a man up till his 70's. He could out armwrestle all the grandkids when we were teenagers and we were a big rough bunch. He taught me to straight arm a sledgehammer on his 70th birthday. He also gave me my first drink of liquor, how to sharpen a knife and all the stuff you would expect...

This is the wrong thread for it but he would be my one choice for survival if he were still alive.

[kiltedninja]

Bob's grandpa is my weapon of choice for a zombie outbreak :lol:

So anywho, we should probably get back on topic before Darkness comes in and whips us about it.

I really honestly think that it all depends on what your preference is. I'd like something that can hit you both when I'm breathing down your neck, or hiding in a tree 100yds away, so I'd have to go with an M16/M4. I'd really like an H&K 416 though. I'd hide cigarettes in the handle compartment.

[homelitexl]

i feel your pain bob i lost my grandpa last christmas andhe was just like that he killed nazis back in his day and hadsome stuff he took off the bodies.

[DeAdLY SiNZz]

CAVU i totally agree and i would have to say i'm more use to shooting the m16's and AR's. and yes mostof the time they give the airman the crap guns to carry over in the sandbox.

that's cool i'm an A1C at Ellsworth AFB

[J Dub]

What about the .408 Chey Tac? I was looking at it for a bit and then futureweapons did a show on it and it seams like the new sniper round. It's said to stay supersonic out to around 2,300 yards and supposedly is extremely accurate.

i've seen the show, but i'd still stick to the .338 or .50.

i have not seen a cheytac408 in person, doubt i will until i make it south of the 49th. i don't imagine finding food or parts for one would even be possible up here. it is a interesting round no doubt about that.

[mattifikation]

My grandpa could take his teeth out, which amazed me before I knew what dentures were. Oh, and he cut his corn off the cob with a knive before he ate it. So he was good with knives.... and if he turned zed on me, I could disarm him without killing him...

Yeah...

[J Dub]

My grandpa could take his teeth out, which amazed me before I knew what dentures were.

you bastiage, you owe me a keyboard :lol::lol::lol:

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj123/jonwaite/vincentpricebyhorrorbob1hb1.gif

[kiltedninja]

My grandpa is a good shot, and likes his coffee really strong. He grew up in Mississippi. All of the guys in my family like certain things, coffee, bananas, tomatoes, sharp objects, and milk.
Now that I've made a comment that has nothing to do with what the best of those weapons is, I have to say that I'm more used to the ARs, they're a little more comfortable to hold, and lighter.

[Bob]

Coffee - Yes
Sharp stuff - Yes
Tomatoes - Ick
Banannas - Once in a great while
Milk - Ick

I guess it must be the Irish in me all I want is meat and potatoes.

[homelitexl]

thats like my family we all like the same things, muscle cars,beer, cheap women, big trucks, chainsaws.

[kiltedninja]

Coffee - Yes
Sharp stuff - Yes
Tomatoes - Ick
Banannas - Once in a great while
Milk - Ick

I guess it must be the Irish in me all I want is meat and potatoes.

We're German and Scottish on my dad's side, German and Russian on my mom's, but I don't know how that relates to my love of tomatoes. It just helps me understand why I'm violent when drunk.

I grew up on meat and potatoes, the restaurant I work for has been helping support my family with jobs since my mom was 15. And the owner and his dad are both about as Irish as it gets without going to Ireland.

[Bob]

English
Scottish
Irish
Swiss
German both sides

[hotlead]

German from my Dad, Scottish and Sioux Indian from my Mom.

Mrs. Hotlead is Portuguese, German, Irish, and Cherokee.

It's a good thing we like each other :hug:

[homelitexl]

english-dad
irish-dad
cherokee-dad
german-mom

[Darkness]

"Ok, Family Tree Time is over. Now let's get back to talking about weapons." :naughty:

[hotlead]

Some of these geneologies sound like weapons all by themselves :scare:

[NotoriousDIT]

By simple laws of newtonian physics, it's extremely improbable to knock down an average sized man with a small arm with the force of the round alone regardless of caliber, that's just hollywood. You could stammer back a zombie with a fifty cal rifle, or a shotgun, or you could bring it down if you blow off his kneecaps, that's about it. If you have aim so poor that you can't get headshots with a carbine or rifle at close range, you're either better off with a melee weapon, or you're zombie chowder.

EDIT: Actually a .50 cal would probably bring a zed down, but I don't think a .50 sniper rifle or browning M2 machinegun are practical weapons, for plenty of reasons.

this guy knows what's up.

[kiltedninja]

this guy knows what's up.

There's a reason we keep him around man.

I'd still go with an M16 between an AK and M16. I'm not really that familiar with the 16, but I'd find a manual for it somewhere.

[J Dub]

the .50bmg is a powerful round. it will blow a hole through a human sized mass you could bowl through. a limb shot with the .50bmg is a kill shot 90% of the time from bleed out.

if you think you can shoulder it, i think this rifle is the ticket for 1 shot knock down guaranteed :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EVqT3XEzss

[Tomeh]

two samurai swords in my opinion, if you and a friend had those you wouldn't die till you got tired really..

[Bob]

Oh here we go again...
I don't have the strength to do this anyone want to explain the folly in his statement.

This is the problem with mega-threads no one reads more than the last couple of pages.

[CAVU45]

Oh here we go again...
I don't have the strength to do this anyone want to explain the folly in his statement.

This is the problem with mega-threads no one reads more than the last couple of pages.

I feel your pain. Not to mention the Super Ninja Stealth Warrior's weapon isn't on the list at the top of the page. How much do you want to bet there's a new post about the .22lr ricocheting around inside a skull? :roll:

Back on topic, I do believe a gas piston conversion done to the M4 would be just about perfect.

[homelitexl]

how about a nailgun

[J Dub]

Back on topic, I do believe a gas piston conversion done to the M4 would be just about perfect.

i'm gong to look into one of those, i have to get me a quality 1911 first though.

i'm guessing i'd like a lmt or dpms if they (AR-15's) are still available up here when i get my scratch saved up.

[bandits1]

two samurai swords in my opinion, if you and a friend had those you wouldn't die till you got tired really..
Lol...good luck with that.

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/2003/0605616700.jpg
...this wouldn't happen to be you and your friends, would it? http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3055/ninja1j.gif

[kiltedninja]

two samurai swords in my opinion, if you and a friend had those you wouldn't die till you got tired really..

Do you even know how to use a sword? A katana has a particular cutting method, and only a master could use it repeatedly without dulling the blade, or breaking it. You, my friend, are starting to sound like a mall ninja. Plus, what do you know about fighting with two? It's a lot harder than you might think. Take it from someone who knows how to use a sword, and go with a rifle.

I'm starting to lean towards an M16, it's more accurate than the AK, and since we're trying for accuracy, I'd have to go with an M16.

[Dave Of The Dead]

Seriously, I'm good with a blade and have actually tried using two before... it sucks hardcore and is too clumsy for words to describe. The katana is a warrior's blade, not a wannabe's. If you don't know what you're doing and I mean REALLY know what you're doing, you'll screw up your katana nice and quick. I used to own one and read a bunch of books and manuals and watched videos, the whole bit. I broke that thing faster than any other blade I owned. I'll stick to my kukris and even then, I'd choose my rifle first.

[bandits1]

Do you even know how to use a sword? A katana has a particular cutting method, and only a master could use it repeatedly without dulling the blade, or breaking it. You, my friend, are starting to sound like a mall ninja. Plus, what do you know about fighting with two? It's a lot harder than you might think. Take it from someone who knows how to use a sword, and go with a rifle...
I'm willing to bet just about nobody here is traditionally trained to use a nihonto. You can't properly learn it from books, can't learn it from watching YouTube or mail-order videos, can't learn it in a backyard from a friend who owns 8 of 'em + 10248234 ninja stars. Just like any martial art, you gotta have years and years and years of training under a legit instructor at a legit dojo.

I vaguely remember someone here mentioning a while ago that he learned judo or jujitsu or karate or kung fu or something from books/videos/whatever and claimed he became "very good" at it. That made me lol. My older brother went up to nidan(2nd degree black belt) in judo, trained for 25+ years at one of the most respected judo clubs in Hawaii, and was very successful in competition, and even he would say he still has a lot to learn.

[Bob]

Well my first cousin (God rest him) was a fifth in Jujitsu and high ranked in a number of other arts.
My belts are black or brown and they do a good job of holding up my pants, I got them at Wal Mart.

Chi will allow you to do things like shoot a pistol with no sights.
Once upon a time I had a Glock with no sights but a Lawyer Shooter Dude gave me some free legal advice. Have sights preferably factory sights on the pistol even if you don't use them.

Shooting for me is a form of meditation.
Concentration and the oneness of what I am doing.


Damn now you done gone and made me go all metaphysical and stuff.
I must go cuss at the cat and get drunk to restore balance to the universe.

[The Voice Of Desperation]

Well my first cousin (God rest him) was a fifth in Jujitsu and high ranked in a number of other arts.
My belts are black or brown and they do a good job of holding up my pants, I got them at Wal Mart.

Chi will allow you to do things like shoot a pistol with no sights.
Once upon a time I had a Glock with no sights but a Lawyer Shooter Dude gave me some free legal advice. Have sights preferably factory sights on the pistol even if you don't use them.

Shooting for me is a form of meditation.
Concentration and the oneness of what I am doing.


Damn now you done gone and made me go all metaphysical and stuff.
I must go cuss at the cat and get drunk to restore balance to the universe.

Hahahahahahahahahaha :lol: the last part was hilarious.
So, If I had to choose I would pick the AK-47 because it seems a lot more durable and reliable.

[homelitexl]

i choose my last line of defense a vest and pants made of c-4:lol: lets see the zeds eat that

[kiltedninja]

I've got some training with a sword(a year) and even then, I'd f--k it up mighty quick. Given a choice between a katana and a stick, I'd go with the stick, simply because a katana holds too high of a place in my respects, it's a true warrior's blade.

If you want to be a mall ninja, learn to use a bo or jo staff, it's much less of a glorious weapon, but the staff is simple to learn and difficult to master. Tie a knife to the end of it and you have a spear. Spears are a worldwide weapon for a reason, a katana is the weapon of a specific warrior class for a reason.

I'd take the AR, because it's designed to shoot accurately, and if you clean it, don't load the mags fully(28 or 29 instead of 30), you'll avoid most of the problems that were faced by soldiers.

I enjoy knowing that I can drop a target at 150 yards, and with an M16, I can do it 28 times in a row.

[Bob]

I've been a bit ruder than normal the past few days.
I guess it is the Universe coming back into alignment as I was exceptionally nice just before that.


Lets discuss AK variants for a bit.

Hungarian Folder
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9274/amd652011004.jpg

Yugoslavian Folder
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/6024/yugom70ab21991909.jpg

Plain old Romanian
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9155/romakbox2021956.jpg

The Hungarian is very short it's only 26" folded.
Should be handy for clearing Zed from a bld.

[homelitexl]

tie a hunk of meat to a captured zed rig a bombb to him then release him outside once the others come near him bblow the m@#@$#$#%$^rs all to :poo:

[Darkness]

tie a hunk of meat to a captured zed rig a bombb to him then release him outside once the others come near him bblow the m@#@$#$#%$^rs all to :poo:

"Yes, but that's a conversation for another thread. Namely this one........."
http://www.allthingszombie.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17685

".........Where we are talking about things that go bomb." ;-)

[homelitexl]

okay i choose an m-60:lol:

[CAVU45]

i'm gong to look into one of those, i have to get me a quality 1911 first though.

i'm guessing i'd like a lmt or dpms if they (AR-15's) are still available up here when i get my scratch saved up.

I can't remember if I mentioned it before, but I did the gas piston conversion to my Bushmaster M4. It was cheap and very easy to do with no special tools required. I've only run a few hundred rounds through it since the conversion, but it's worked flawlessly so far. And cleaning is a breeze!!

[Bob]

Cav

Was there any fitting involved or was it a straight drop in?
What kind of dollars does a conversion like that require?
Pics / links?

[CAVU45]

It was a straight drop in piece. No fitting required at all. I bought the Bushmaster kit. It runs right at $400. There are a few others available like the Adams Arms kit, but I went with Bushmaster simply because my gun is a Bushie.
Here's a pic of the completed rifle. The only outward difference are the oval handguards.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb80/CavWarrior/GPC12.jpg

Here's a link to the Bushmaster site showing the complete kit.
http://www.bushmaster.com/products.asp?cat=6#GP-GSR

The only thing I had to do to the gun after installation was reset the sights. Due to the barrel whip and harmonics the sights were way off. After sighting though, the rifle was shooting sub MOA groups at 100 yds.

[Comander Shaw]

It was a straight drop in piece. No fitting required at all. I bought the Bushmaster kit. It runs right at $400. There are a few others available like the Adams Arms kit, but I went with Bushmaster simply because my gun is a Bushie.
Here's a pic of the completed rifle. The only outward difference are the oval handguards.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb80/CavWarrior/GPC12.jpg

Here's a link to the Bushmaster site showing the complete kit.
http://www.bushmaster.com/products.asp?cat=6#GP-GSR

The only thing I had to do to the gun after installation was reset the sights. Due to the barrel whip and harmonics the sights were way off. After sighting though, the rifle was shooting sub MOA groups at 100 yds.

So that thing only ran $400?

[kiltedninja]

I think he's talking the gas piston conversion kit, not the M4. If he got a Bushmaster M4 for 400, he's well connected or lucky.

[Comander Shaw]

I think he's talking the gas piston conversion kit, not the M4. If he got a Bushmaster M4 for 400, he's well connected or lucky.

Damn straight he is!

[CAVU45]

$400 for the complete rifle? I wish!!! No, that was the cost of the gas piston conversion kit. The M4 I got several years ago at a pre-obama price of $650, which was still a pretty good deal.

[Bob]

I paid $250 for a Colt CAR-15.

Since it replaces the bolt carrier will it work in a select fire weapon?

[CAVU45]

I don't think so. They aren't the full auto carriers. You can keep the original bolt and carrier and simply replace the gas key.

[Bob]

Well kool although it is not an issue for me as I don't have anything select fire.

[mattifikation]

I want a sweet AR. Soon I'll have enough money for one. But instead, I'll be buying a car. Because mine sucked an egg.

I don't understand why god built his toilet to dump the shit on me.

[homelitexl]

matt i have a 66 nova for sale running for 200 if your interested

[mattifikation]

I need something better on gas than that. My first car actually almost was a Nova, but the guy sold it before I could come up with the cash. I have something in mind, but I probably won't be able to get the loan I need for it.

Uh. Oh yeah. Best of these weapons....

piston converted AR15 for the win.

[J Dub]

It was a straight drop in piece. No fitting required at all. I bought the Bushmaster kit. It runs right at $400. There are a few others available like the Adams Arms kit, but I went with Bushmaster simply because my gun is a Bushie.
Here's a pic of the completed rifle. The only outward difference are the oval handguards.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb80/CavWarrior/GPC12.jpg

Here's a link to the Bushmaster site showing the complete kit.
http://www.bushmaster.com/products.asp?cat=6#GP-GSR

The only thing I had to do to the gun after installation was reset the sights. Due to the barrel whip and harmonics the sights were way off. After sighting though, the rifle was shooting sub MOA groups at 100 yds.

thanks for the gun porn :drool:

sweet little ar you got there, gas piston seems to be the ticket for sure. i'm sold on a ar, just have to be patient (which i am used to up here)

fwiw, they are selling nib norinco ar15's for 950.00. no no i ain't gonna touch one of them, just thought i'd share that. their 1911 is my limit :lol:

[Bob]

Prices are going to come back down.
The first panic caused by the obamination is about over.
By fall prices will be back in line with where they ought to be.
It's going to take a while for dealers to realize they have to adjust the prices down. I was on the phone with one today that told me in so many words that they HAVE to wait on a sucker because they paid to much just to get them. Them meaning black rifles.

[kiltedninja]

Yeah man, 650 for an AR is damn good, around here, (pre-obamanation prices) they sold for about 1k, now they're going for about 1.6k or so.

It's just like any other market, you have your good times and your bad times.

PS Matt, I don't know about your trek to work, but I can ride a bike to work from my place, look into that, and maybe you can still get your AR.

[homelitexl]

the nova gets mid thirties on gas

[CAVU45]

thanks for the gun porn :drool:

sweet little ar you got there, gas piston seems to be the ticket for sure. i'm sold on a ar, just have to be patient (which i am used to up here)

fwiw, they are selling nib norinco ar15's for 950.00. no no i ain't gonna touch one of them, just thought i'd share that. their 1911 is my limit :lol:

You're welcome. :)
Thanks! it is a sweet shooting carbine. I don't know if I'd completely discouont the Norc AR's. Their 1911 is superb and a few Canadian buds with Norc M14's love them. Seems Norinco is building quality guns at reasonable prices. I wish we could get them here in the states. I'd love to have the chance to see a few of them.

[Onslaught]

I own an AK.

I'd say that ballistic performance is about equal int he head-popping scenario. Both will put zack on the ground with one shot at any distance you would concievably need to shoot from.

But, I feel that the AR is the better choice due to the domestically manufactured ammo. And the fact that any spent casings you come across can be reloaded (not so with the steel cased AK food).

The rifle itself is more complicated to be sure, but you should have more than enough time to clean the thing. Ammo will be scarce and you won't need to clean it often anyway. It's also lighter, more ergonomic, and has a better and larger base for accessories, magazines, ammo, and spare parts in the United States than it's Russian counterpart.

Your chances of snagging some extra 5.56 off of a zombie soldier or the remnants of an overpowered roadblock/convoy/police unit are greater than your chances of stumbling upon some cacher's stash of 7.62X39 without being shot to death.

There is something to be said for standardized weaponry/ammo/gear.

[kiltedninja]

That's something that I don't think anyone thought of here, availability.
AR's are more common here in the US of A, but that may not be so in other countries.

Plus you don't always have to look for the 5.56 NATO, you can find some .223 shells.

[CAVU45]

I think the availability issue was brought up way back in the thread.

[bandits1]

Yup, multiple times.

[Darkness]

"It can never hurt to re-teach it, for all the new comers." :)

[JakAttak]

there are a lot of each in stock if every one in the U.S looted about 1,000 there would still be some left.

[slayer1222]

u r all lucky i live in the uk witch have crap laws about guns and cross bows and stuff like that i have never shot a real gun only air guns

[kiltedninja]

Well Slayer...yeah, we're lucky.

But realize that we've been killing things effectively for thousands of years without guns.

[slayer1222]

ye i have swords and knives and a bow and arrow thats it

[J Dub]

i feel for you slayer. the libtards have made a absolute mess of things over there. we are not far behind as it is spilling over into banada. i think you can still acquire certain long guns in the uk (shotties, muzzleloaders etc), if that is the case you would be wise to get into it now before there is nothing left.

there is no excuse for any American to be unarmed unless he/she decides that for him/her self.

if you are of age to buy a firearm, buy one. if you are of age for ccw, get it.

i wish i had the freedoms many take for granted.

[hotlead]

Slayer, I believe cap 'n ball revolvers can be had in England, and many single-shot bigbore cartridge rifles as well.

Trapdoor Springfields load pretty fast, I think the fastest of all the blackpowder cartridge single-shot rifles.

At least it's better than a sharp stick :x

[slayer1222]

i am under the age to get a gun and my mum is never gonna let my dad get one she isant even letting me get air guns anymore when i used to have 2 air guns a cross bow a bow and arrow a machete and a few other things we got some boxes mixed up when we moved and never got them back

[CAVU45]

i am under the age to get a gun and my mum is never gonna let my dad get one she isant even letting me get air guns anymore when i used to have 2 air guns a cross bow a bow and arrow a machete and a few other things we got some boxes mixed up when we moved and never got them back

Phew. Say all that in one breath.

[bandits1]

i am under the age to get a gun and my mum is never gonna let my dad get one she isant even letting me get air guns anymore when i used to have 2 air guns a cross bow a bow and arrow a machete and a few other things we got some boxes mixed up when we moved and never got them back
See if you can pass this quiz:

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1679/tiny.gif

[slayer1222]

i also have some stuff now i have a tomfa a army helmet 2 swords a few knives and some spears i made

[mattifikation]

You must not have caught on to something there. People were hinting that you need to use punctuation. Do you remember back in third grade, when they taught you all those strange marks and symbols to put in your sentences?

[slayer1222]

i no about punctuation just cant be asked to use it

[mattifikation]

So you're a moron by choice?

Suit yourself. Nobody's going to care what you have to say, if nobody can understand you when you say it.

[slayer1222]

well sorta but does it matter that much if i dont put a few dots or lines in my writing

[bandits1]

i no about punctuation just cant be asked to use it
....."no"?

[Darkness]

"We inturrupt you now, for a Public Service Announcement......."
well sorta but does it matter that much if i dont put a few dots or lines in my writing

"Slayer1222, you have some good ideas, along with a lot of others in here, but they are getting lost in the translation."

"With out punctuation, and proper sentence breaks, we can't understand what you are posting. It makes you look stupid, and we know that's not true."

"I, for one, would love to learn more, but I also find it hard to read your posts. Please try harder." ;-)






"This has been a public service announcement from your Local Moderator."

"And now, back top our regular schedualed topic of conversation." :lol:

[DarthJoe8]

You must not have caught on to something there. People were hinting that you need to use punctuation. Do you remember back in third grade, when they taught you all those strange marks and symbols to put in your sentences?

I see this a lot. He probably texts a lot...:lol: You can only type so many "characters" so periods and such take up valuable space...:think:

I have the luxury of responding to my companies email, I see very smart and wealthy people type like a six year old...:loon: Sometimes I have to sit there and think..."what the f*ck is this person trying to say"...:x

All because of texting. :clap:

[CAVU45]

i no about punctuation just cant be asked to use it

Then perhaps we can't be asked to read your posts. Just a thought.

[Darkness]

"Okay, guys, that's enough. I think he gets the point. Now let US get back on topic." :naughty: